How will schools be able to go back in September?

downthemiddle · 03-07-2020 07:35AM

thomasdylan wrote: »

https://mobile.twitter.com/apsmunro/status/1278714280448319489

A very good summary of the information available so far on the return to school.

Should be mostly reassuring reading.

Hmmmm. What a remarkable coincidence that I happen to know the three teachers who tested positive in Ireland.

downthemiddle · 03-07-2020 07:36AM

mcsean2163 wrote: »

As someone who became unemployed and ended up home schooling/ stay at home dad, the level of entitlement here is sickening to me.

Yet another Covid-19 related illness !!!

richardw001 · 03-07-2020 07:42AM

mcsean2163 wrote: »

As someone who became unemployed and ended up home schooling/ stay at home dad, the level of entitlement here is sickening to me.

Maybe we are wronging them. It maybe that the ASTI is as committed to getting back to work as the rest of us. The media, knowing that they will get a certain type of comment might be driving a narrative here and fueling discord.

My own advice to the ASTI would be that they should be saying "no comment" rather than posturing to the media.

A union has no place setting themselves up on a pedistal as an expert on COVID-19. If individual teachers have an issue on their working conditions they should raise it with their employeer (and bring their union in on a case by case basis).

Anyway the biggest mistake I believe the government made was not deeming teaching as essential work months ago - and having Teachers in for the kids of frontline workers and also vunerable kids.

Now I think everyone is overthinking the whole school situation

Like every other industry - Individual employees should take the expert advice onboard and decide what risks they are prepared to take. Cleaners and now hairdressers are back taking much higher risks - and you dont see them on the TV and media !

khalessi · 03-07-2020 08:22AM

richardw001 wrote: »

Maybe we are wronging them. It maybe that the ASTI is as committed to getting back to work as the rest of us. The media, knowing that they will get a certain type of comment might be driving a narrative here and fueling discord.

My own advice to the ASTI would be that they should be saying "no comment" rather than posturing to the media.

A union has no place setting themselves up on a pedistal as an expert on COVID-19. If individual teachers have an issue on their working conditions they should raise it with their employeer (and bring their union in on a case by case basis).

Anyway the biggest mistake I believe the government made was not deeming teaching as essential work months ago - and having Teachers in for the kids of frontline workers and also vunerable kids. Bar staff also for same reason and teachers for same reason safet measures

Now I think everyone is overthinking the whole school situation

Like every other industry - Individual employees should take the expert advice onboard and decide what risks they are prepared to take. Cleaners and now hairdressers are back taking much higher risks - and you dont see them on the TV and media !

Hairdressers werei n media re the safety measures they were implementing before reopening, Social distancing of chairs and how they would manage hairwashing and face shields etc.BAr staff too and teachers too safery measures

History Queen · 03-07-2020 08:23AM

richardw001 wrote: »

Maybe we are wronging them. It maybe that the ASTI is as committed to getting back to work as the rest of us. The media, knowing that they will get a certain type of comment might be driving a narrative here and fueling discord.

My own advice to the ASTI would be that they should be saying "no comment" rather than posturing to the media.

A union has no place setting themselves up on a pedistal as an expert on COVID-19. If individual teachers have an issue on their working conditions they should raise it with their employeer (and bring their union in on a case by case basis).

Anyway the biggest mistake I believe the government made was not deeming teaching as essential work months ago - and having Teachers in for the kids of frontline workers and also vunerable kids.

Now I think everyone is overthinking the whole school situation

Like every other industry - Individual employees should take the expert advice onboard and decide what risks they are prepared to take. Cleaners and now hairdressers are back taking much higher risks - and you dont see them on the TV and media !

The ASTI comment yesterday wasn't to journalists. It was to a Dail Committee. People need to be responsible for the media they consume also and question headlines and click bait titles not just be zombified consumers of whatever the media propagates. Critical thinking needs to be engaged.

No union is setting themselves up as experts on Covid-19. They are asking that public health advice be adheared to.

Anyway I'm sick of trying to defend my profession to people who simply refuse to listen (not aimed at you particularly but the thread in general).

Quick summary:
Teachers want to go back to work in as normal a fashion as possible given the situation we are in

Teachers want to go back to work in line with public health guidelines

Teachers are not refusing to work

Teachers are not looking for extra money for themselves but are looking for the Department to fund schools adequately so that they can follow public health advice

Teachers have been working from March 12th up to the official school holidays

Teachers and individual schools cannot and will not decide when and how schools will open, that is the remit of the Department of Education

Many teachers are parents too and acutely aware of the childcare issues involved

All other workplaces have increased health and safety measures in place depending on their circumstances, whether that be perspex screens/new work place protocols/social distancing/time limits/PPE etc.

iamwhoiam · 03-07-2020 09:03AM

richardw001 wrote: »

Maybe we are wronging them. It maybe that the ASTI is as committed to getting back to work as the rest of us. The media, knowing that they will get a certain type of comment might be driving a narrative here and fueling discord.

My own advice to the ASTI would be that they should be saying "no comment" rather than posturing to the media.

A union has no place setting themselves up on a pedistal as an expert on COVID-19. If individual teachers have an issue on their working conditions they should raise it with their employeer (and bring their union in on a case by case basis).

Anyway the biggest mistake I believe the government made was not deeming teaching as essential work months ago - and having Teachers in for the kids of frontline workers and also vunerable kids.

Now I think everyone is overthinking the whole school situation

Like every other industry - Individual employees should take the expert advice onboard and decide what risks they are prepared to take. Cleaners and now hairdressers are back taking much higher risks - and you dont see them on the TV and media !

The Government made a huge mistake by not keeping schools open for frontline workers . In the UK they did and a rota of teachers and SNAs looked after the kids in the schools . It worked really well according to a friend of mine and the frontline workers could go to work knowing the children were looked after
Frontline workers here were let down badly in this regard

pwurple · 03-07-2020 10:10AM

iamwhoiam wrote: »

The Government made a huge mistake by not keeping schools open for frontline workers . In the UK they did and a rota of teachers and SNAs looked after the kids in the schools . It worked really well according to a friend of mine and the frontline workers could go to work knowing the children were looked after
Frontline workers here were let down badly in this regard

Yup. Not just the UK either, loads of countries did that. Canada, parts of Germany etc. My counter parts in other countries have their children in school and childcare was provided, because we are designated critical. We were also designated as critical here in Ireland, have a lovely letter from my employer for travelling to work, but the education system closed which goosed me.

iamwhoiam · 03-07-2020 10:56AM

History Queen wrote: »

The ASTI comment yesterday wasn't to journalists. It was to a Dail Committee. People need to be responsible for the media they consume also and question headlines and click bait titles not just be zombified consumers of whatever the media propagates. Critical thinking needs to be engaged.

No union is setting themselves up as experts on Covid-19. They are asking that public health advice be adheared to.

Anyway I'm sick of trying to defend my profession to people who simply refuse to listen (not aimed at you particularly but the thread in general).

Quick summary:
Teachers want to go back to work in as normal a fashion as possible given the situation we are in

Teachers want to go back to work in line with public health guidelines

Teachers are not refusing to work

Teachers are not looking for extra money for themselves but are looking for the Department to fund schools adequately so that they can follow public health advice

Teachers have been working from March 12th up to the official school holidays

Teachers and individual schools cannot and will not decide when and how schools will open, that is the remit of the Department of Education

Many teachers are parents too and acutely aware of the childcare issues involved

All other workplaces have increased health and safety measures in place depending on their circumstances, whether that be perspex screens/new work place protocols/social distancing/time limits/PPE etc.

Most people I know realise its not the teachers that are dilly dallying but the DoE and the unions are dragging their heels .Unions should have put pressure on the Dept way back in April .
This is what is bothering many parents because it has been known since March 12 that something had to be put in place to get kids back to school.I my opinion there should have been a task force in place by end of march who would plan for worst case scenario , medium and best case scenarios .Different plans for all eventualities and plans for hygiene , PPE , etc .
Principles and teachers asked to submit their needs and ideas and task forces or commitees set up in schools to set out their needs and concerns .

Hospitals at management level and ward level had to think on their feet and get things done as quickly as humanly possible and get the staff on board and willing . It comes from the top and it has to bring everyone on board and the wheels in motion . Every cog in that wheel is vital and should be consulted .

And as an aside I think the unions should be more aware of the huge anxiety out there among pupils , parents and teachers and choose their words wisely be it to the press or a Dail Committee

History Queen · 03-07-2020 11:15AM

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Most people I know realise its not the teachers that are dilly dallying but the DoE and the unions are dragging their heels .Unions should have put pressure on the Dept way back in April .
This is what is bothering many parents because it has been known since March 12 that something had to be put in place to get kids back to school.I my opinion there should have been a task force in place by end of march who would plan for worst case scenario , medium and best case scenarios .Different plans for all eventualities and plans for hygiene , PPE , etc .
Principles and teachers asked to submit their needs and ideas and task forces or commitees set up in schools to set out their needs and concerns .

Hospitals at management level and ward level had to think on their feet and get things done as quickly as humanly possible and get the staff on board and willing . It comes from the top and it has to bring everyone on board and the wheels in motion . Every cog in that wheel is vital and should be consulted .

And as an aside I think the unions should be more aware of the huge anxiety out there among pupils , parents and teachers and choose their words wisely be it to the press or a Dail Committee

Agreed re unions choosing their words wisely, responsible media reporting would also help.

In defence of both second level teaching unions April and May were largely taken up with dealing with the ever changing goalposts on the Leaving Certificate and responding to irresponsible speculation by Leo Vradkar, Simon Harris,Ciara Kelly etc. Not saying that there weren't discussions going on with INTO and Dept re schools opening at that stage, I simply don't know.

Also agreed re the importance of consultation.

khalessi · 03-07-2020 11:17AM

History Queen wrote: »

Agreed re unions choosing their words wisely, responsible media reporting would also help.

In defence of both second level teaching unions April and May were largely taken up with dealing with the ever changing goalposts on the Leaving Certificate and responding to irresponsible speculation by Leo Vradkar, Simon Harris,Ciara Kelly etc. Not saying that there weren't discussions going on with INTO and Dept re schools opening at that stage, I simply don't know.

Also agreed re the importance of consultation.

No idea re INTO but there were suggestions sent in, (7 page document I think on how to return to school) before the Dept were supposed to issue their guidelines. I think Dept werent focussed on it, just LC and JC, till now

jrosen · 03-07-2020 11:19AM

This was predictable. The kids have been off since March and that is when plans should have been put in place, workable solutions with feedback from teachers and principals on the ground as to what they feel they need at their schools.
But no, that would have been far too sensible.

Now we are left with the same questions we had in March and no further informed.

I saw the TUI guy on prime-time last night. Didnt think much of his attitude.

Rodin · 03-07-2020 11:20AM

Teaching unions have always had a poor attitude.
Always talking problems instead of finding solutions.

No reason why schools can't reopen in September.

They just need to get it done.

Mandatory face masks will go a long way to reducing risk

khalessi · 03-07-2020 11:22AM

Rodin wrote: »

Teaching unions have always had a poor attitude.
Always talking problems instead of finding solutions.

No reason why schools can't reopen in September.

They just need to get it done.

Mandatory face masks will go a long way to reducing risk

It is not the teaching unions, it is the Dept

wirelessdude01 · 03-07-2020 11:26AM

Rodin wrote: »

Teaching unions have always had a poor attitude.
Always talking problems instead of finding solutions.

No reason why schools can't reopen in September.

They just need to get it done.

Mandatory face masks will go a long way to reducing risk

How many times have us teachers said on here that the Dept need to step up. Decision to open/close doesn't fall on our lap at all. We all want to get back properly in Sept but we want it to be safe for all our school community.

BonsaiKitten · 03-07-2020 11:33AM

mcsean2163 wrote: »

As someone who became unemployed and ended up home schooling/ stay at home dad, the level of entitlement here is sickening to me.

That's a shame that you became unemployed and I hope you find a new job soon. However it has nothing to do with me not wanting to work for free.

Before something gets said about "one email a week isn't working", I did hours of daily live lessons with my class along with the correcting/tech support etc. The kids got taught because during term time, that is what I am paid to do. Outside of term time their education isn't my responsibility - if the Govt want additional days from me then they can pay me for it. It's not entitlement, it's just not being a mug.

This notion of extra schooling will never happen anyway, I will just be happy if hand sanitizer gets properly funded next year.

BonsaiKitten · 03-07-2020 11:40AM

iamwhoiam wrote: »

The Government made a huge mistake by not keeping schools open for frontline workers . In the UK they did and a rota of teachers and SNAs looked after the kids in the schools . It worked really well according to a friend of mine and the frontline workers could go to work knowing the children were looked after
Frontline workers here were let down badly in this regard

Absolutely. I know that that there was at least one FB page on the go which paired up teachers/childcare workers with frontline parents who needed help. They did an amazing job but they shouldn't have had to do it, the State should have put the supports in.

DSN · 03-07-2020 11:46AM

History Queen wrote: »

Nothing concrete. That's part of the worry.

outrageous considering the announcements for millions for this industry & that. Even the bloody cliffs of moher have been pledged a 16M upgrade this week.

khalessi · 03-07-2020 11:49AM

DSN wrote: »

outrageous considering the announcements for millions for this industry & that. Even the bloody cliffs of moher have been pledged a 16M upgrade this week.

Yep, and listening to yesterdays debate they are still considering how much if any to invest in Education. Now there is a new Minister to get up and running.

From what I can tell, it will be doors open in September and count yourself lucky that the Dept bought sanitizer.

Rodin · 03-07-2020 11:54AM

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

How many times have us teachers said on here that the Dept need to step up. Decision to open/close doesn't fall on our lap at all. We all want to get back properly in Sept but we want it to be safe for all our school community.

Define "Covid Secure".

This term comes from the unions.

What criteria need to be met before a school is "Covid-Secure" ?

wirelessdude01 · 03-07-2020 11:55AM

Rodin wrote: »

Define "Covid Secure"

Why would I when I didn't use those words?

khalessi · 03-07-2020 11:57AM

Rodin wrote: »

Define "Covid Secure".

This term comes from the unions.

What criteria need to be met before a school is "Covid-Secure" ?

Still the Dept who have not stepped up to the plate.

CruelSummer · 03-07-2020 11:58AM

khalessi wrote: »

Yep, and listening to yesterdays debate they are still considering how much if any to invest in Education. Now there is a new Minister to get up and running.

From what I can tell, it will be doors open in September and count yourself lucky that the Dept bought sanitizer.

Totally agree with this, instead of kite-flying to the media - the Government need to put their money where their mouth is and provide a big stimulus to Education to invest in hygiene and sanitation, extra prefabs where possible, grant extra teachers to schools very close to qualifying for 'Developing schools' status to help keep the numbers manageable, PPE equipment, possible training and procedures in conjunction with the HSE or Public Health Bodies on rapid test and trace procedures, and how the school should respond to cases of Covid 19.

the corpo · 03-07-2020 12:06PM

Didn't McHugh, in his last statement, say there would be no funds for extra prefabs/teachers etc? Or did I imagine it...

khalessi · 03-07-2020 12:08PM

the corpo wrote: »

Didn't McHugh, in his last statement, say there would be no funds for extra prefabs/teachers etc? Or did I imagine it...

Something to that effect. I think he said the money wasnt there but they were in discussions and that was the last that was heard apart from the fact they would bulk buy sanitiser but in a later document for the short term the schools would have to buy it and be reimbursed. ETA this could just mean buy for the JP but wasnt clarified.

wirelessdude01 · 03-07-2020 12:09PM

the corpo wrote: »

Didn't McHugh, in his last statement, say there would be no funds for extra prefabs/teachers etc? Or did I imagine it...

Something along the lines of no additional money will be made available for infrastructure and that that included prefabs.

People would want to be getting angry at these kind of statements rather than getting angry at teachers. We didn't close schools and in reality have no input as to when or how they open. All we can do is voice our concerns loud enough that they are heard.

Rodin · 03-07-2020 12:16PM

khalessi wrote: »

Still the Dept who have not stepped up to the plate.

What do you want from the department?

And what have the schools themselves done in the last almost 4 months?

khalessi · 03-07-2020 12:24PM

Rodin wrote: »

What do you want from the department?

And what have the schools themselves done in the last almost 4 months?

I want them to get off there arses and issue the guidelines they were supposed to issue a fortnight ago instead of wafting on about aspirations and bespoke solutions.

Well in our school see posts, 4285 and 4292 but I will repreint as it is obvious you dont keep up with the thread.
POst 4285

Well so far we will be working in bubbles.
Each class is its own bubble and the teachers stay at their own level.
Staffroom might remain closed for the moment.
Staff meetings done via zoom no large gatherings.
In the yard the children stick to their own bubble and demarcated area on yard. The only one to move between bubbles will be SET who will be in multiple bubbles.
SET groups cant be mixed each group from their own bubble. Gonna be interesting times.

In another school they are placing desks at the back with perspex surround should vunerable children wish to come to school wearing masks.

Post 4292
Well that is some of what we have come up with so far without guidance from Dept of Ed. McHugh has no idea and wouldnt know his arse from his elbow from what I've seen of Dept of Ed so far. They have been no help.

So schools and teachers are working on ideas for September but we also await guidance from Dept of Ed and chances are Simon Harris will be new Dept of Ed minister, see how that goes.

There will still be a form of social distancing regardless of McHugh. Children will be encouraged in my school to use one way system and stay on one side of corridor when moving around.

There is a question about PE equipment as it is shared, as it may need cleaning between groups. Same reason GAA not doing camoige camps in my area this year as cleanig equipment too difficult.

There is also a question on paintbrushes being shared as cleaning etc. My solution is to get each child to go to lidl or Aldi and buy set of paintbrushes and be responsible for them.

No Rental book this year to prevent germs. They have been cleaned and put into storage.

Lots of other areas to look into such as lining up in yard, collection, entering exiting schools every day. It doesnt matter what they do outside school gates there will still be some form of sd in these areas in school.

We are looking at other areas too but this is what we have managed without guildlines and on assumption we are reopening doors in August.

Oh yes and apart from that I was teaching up untill 30th June if thats ok

And I will be doing courses during the summer for professional development

03-07-2020 12:25PM

What I find interesting is that a secondary school teacher in their first year earns more than an intern doctor.

byhookorbycrook · 03-07-2020 12:25PM

What we want is a clear plan for re-opening and funding for cleaning supplies/staff , for a start . Otherwise parents will once again be making up the school budget shortfall .

Murple · 03-07-2020 12:26PM

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Hospitals at management level and ward level had to think on their feet and get things done as quickly as humanly possible and get the staff on board and willing .

Hospitals are equipped for infection prevention and infection control. It would be part of the training of staff.
Hospitals will have in place action plans for emergencies and critical incidents such as train crash, multiple casualty fires and yes, infectious illnesses on a widespread basis.
I read an interview with staff in one hospital who said they began preparing for Covid in January when they began hearing reports.
They weren’t thinking on their feet with the big decisions. There were contingency plans in place. And if there weren’t, and hospitals were ‘thinking on their feet’, someone massively dropped the ball in not having a contingency plan for an epidemic/pandemic.

I do really wish people would stop comparing hospitals with schools, nurses and doctors with teachers when it comes to Covid-19. I would expect hospitals to be able to manage an infectious disease effectively. I wouldn’t expect a school to. I would expect nurses and doctors not to object when asked to deal with contagious illness and disease. I would understand a teacher objecting to.

How will schools be able to go back in September?

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