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How will schools be able to go back in September?

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Comments

  • #4502
    khalessi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,216 ✭✭✭khalessi


    thomasdylan wrote: »
    Masks aren't used for MRSA.

    Really they were when I was nursing, masks gloves white aprons and patients in side rooms where possible. If not now sad to see it going backwards. ALso used them dealing with Clos.Diff.


  • #4503
    khalessi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,216 ✭✭✭khalessi


    John Lahart TD made a point about the need for a level playing field that schools going back while the Dail only has 20 people in it and needing the convention centre which holds 2000 to accomodate 160, that it might help to see a half Dail convening in September, hence he gets the challenges.

    So the Dail dont see themselves back fully in September, yet expect others to go back, interesting.


  • #4504
    thomasdylan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 514 ✭✭✭thomasdylan


    khalessi wrote: »
    Really they were when I was nursing, masks gloves white aprons and patients in side rooms where possible. If not now sad to see it going backwards. ALso used them dealing with Clos.Diff.

    That must be 10+ years ago.

    There has been a huge difference between the attitudes shown by the ASTI on one side and the INMO and the IMO.

    'No teacher will be required to do anything' was what the ASTI said in April about leaving cert preparations.


  • #4505
    History Queen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,488 ✭✭✭History Queen


    thomasdylan wrote: »
    That must be 10+ years ago.

    There has been a huge difference between the attitudes shown by the ASTI on one side and the INMO and the IMO.

    'No teacher will be required to do anything' was what the ASTI said in April about leaving cert preparations.

    That was when they (the two second level teaching unions) were encouraging teachers to volunteer the month of June to being available to LC students and commit to two yearsface to face teaching in July prior to the deferred exams. That statement was in relation to being questioned on whether teachers would be setting a precedent for working more weeks without pay if I recall correctly. The unions were adament that this be recognised as goodwill/voluntary not a change of working conditions. Just providing context as the quote can be misconstrued to make people think teachers were refusing to work. That wasn't the case.

    I don't know why I'm defending the ASTI. I often think they are needlessly abrasive and confrontational when softer words would get the job done quicker. Often soundbites from them fan the flames rather than quench them because they are blunt and even taken in context send the wrong message. Not saying my own union are faultless, TUI often are seen to capitulate too quickly when they should stand their ground. Anyway that's an argument for another day!


  • #4506
    thomasdylan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 514 ✭✭✭thomasdylan


    History Queen wrote: »
    That was when they (the two second level teaching unions) were encouraging teachers to volunteer the month of June to being available to LC students and commit to two yearsface to face teaching in July prior to the deferred exams. That statement was in relation to being questioned on whether teachers would be setting a precedent for working more weeks without pay if I recall correctly. The unions were adament that this be recognised as goodwill/voluntary not a change of working conditions. Just providing context as the quote can be misconstrued to make people think teachers were refusing to work. That wasn't the case.

    I don't think working two weeks extra because of a once in a generation global pandemic would have set a precedent.


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  • #4507
    thomasdylan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 514 ✭✭✭thomasdylan


    https://mobile.twitter.com/apsmunro/status/1278714280448319489

    A very good summary of the information available so far on the return to school.

    Should be mostly reassuring reading.


  • #4508
    khalessi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,216 ✭✭✭khalessi


    thomasdylan wrote: »
    I don't think working two weeks extra because of a once in a generation global pandemic would have set a precedent.

    Well having watched how the Dept deal with every situation you have to be careful. As wireless dude said if the the Department said the sky was blue, you would check.


  • #4509
    History Queen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,488 ✭✭✭History Queen


    thomasdylan wrote: »
    I don't think working two weeks extra because of a once in a generation global pandemic would have set a precedent.

    The thing is years of erosion of the relationship between the Department and teachers means that these things need to be spelled out.


  • #4510
    khalessi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,216 ✭✭✭khalessi


    thomasdylan wrote: »
    https://mobile.twitter.com/apsmunro/status/1278714280448319489

    A very good summary of the information available so far on the return to school.

    Should be mostly reassuring reading.


    Yes twitter is where I go for medical advice.

    There are actual interim documents to look at from the HSE for example


  • #4511
    History Queen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,488 ✭✭✭History Queen


    thomasdylan wrote: »
    https://mobile.twitter.com/apsmunro/status/1278714280448319489

    A very good summary of the information available so far on the return to school.

    Should be mostly reassuring reading.

    Really interesting read. The article that thread referenced that went through what steps schools took to prevent spread is also interesting and shows the importance of increased hygiene/health and safety measures. That's all we are looking for.

    The successful regions all implemented some sort of increased health and hygiene protocols. Isreal then, where they are having issues with new school related cases, seem not to have. I need to read up on it more as I'm not familiar with their education system.




    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8406723/amp/Secondary-schools-resume-Spain-Netherlands-South-Africa.html?__twitter_impression=true


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  • #4512
    thomasdylan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 514 ✭✭✭thomasdylan


    khalessi wrote: »
    Yes twitter is where I go for medical advice.

    There are actual interim documents to look at from the HSE for example

    Did you look at what I linked? It's a referenced summary of the available evidence on Covid, teachers and students. It's really good.

    And twitter can be fantastic for medical education. Just search for #foamed and see the resources and communities of medical professionals there are on twitter.

    I think it's a bit funny for you to get snippy about linking research when you repeatedly posted here about 'a study from John Hopkins' that didn't show what you were claiming it did at all. Whether that was intentional or unintentional I don't know.


  • #4513
    richardw001
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 575 ✭✭✭richardw001


    History Queen wrote: »
    I heard that too but that was in answer to what a classroom with 30 children an sna and a teacher would look like in September. According to the guidelines issued, it would be empty as no classroom in the country can accomodate that while adhering to 1m distancing. The rooms are not physically big enough.

    Ciaran Christie was replying to a politician who in fairness was genuinely trying to understand the issues and I think he (Christie) was a bit frustrated that they didn't seem to understand just how overcrowded some of our classrooms are and how some of the guidelines cannot work with full cohorts of students. He could have phrased it better and was blunt but if we adheare to the guidance issued, most classrooms would be empty in that circumstance (or the class split in to smaller groups).

    Edit: Obviously I can't speak for every classroom but I've never been in a classroom that big and I've taught in a few schools.

    Most of the country is back working now and dealing with Covid as best they can - and the latest information abroad does indicate that there is significantly less risk in schools than most other places.

    So maybe I misread it - It really came accross as ASTI would basically refuse to turn up to work, as a union deciding they know better than the rest of the world and would decide when they return to work (and on what terms)

    So I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and assume this is not the case :-)

    Because really I think if it did does turn out to be the stance they are taking - I think they will be in for a shock on how the rest of the country will react to them.

    With everyone else trying to get on with life as best they can - trying to dictate terms would not be a good place to be.


  • #4514
    khalessi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,216 ✭✭✭khalessi


    thomasdylan wrote: »
    Did you look at what I linked? It's a referenced summary of the available evidence on Covid, teachers and students. It's really good.

    And twitter can be fantastic for medical education. Just search for #foamed and see the resources and communities of medical professionals there are on twitter.

    I think it's a bit funny for you to get snippy about linking research when you repeatedly posted here about 'a study from John Hopkins' that didn't show what you were claiming it did at all. Whether that was intentional or unintentional I don't know.


    Thats ok no worries

    thomasdylan wrote: »
    https://mobile.twitter.com/apsmunro/status/1278714280448319489

    A very good summary of the information available so far on the return to school.

    Should be mostly reassuring reading.

    Had a look and this is what I got from it.

    Israel issues with older children so important to be vigilant, shows the importance of implementing infection mitigation measures and a responsive test, trace and isolate system, and extra vigilance for older children

    Ireland possible undercounting.

    Why would that be?

    Children seem less likely to transmit than adults, but they certainly can transmit

    Our duty is to have schools as safe as possible for students and staff.

    Daily Mail article shows photo of Japanese children in primary school wearing face shields

    Temperature checks

    Spanish primary children wearing med masks

    In Greeece classes being deep cleaned

    Germany children in face shields and face masks

    France teacher in mask and children spaced out when sitting

    Japan class photo social distancing and face shields

    South Africa face masks for teacher and kids


    Hand sanitsing

    Greece temperature checking


  • #4515
    khalessi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,216 ✭✭✭khalessi


    Point being it is important to be careful when we reopen in September and take precautions


  • #4516
    thomasdylan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 514 ✭✭✭thomasdylan


    History Queen wrote: »
    Really interesting read. The article that thread referenced that went through what steps schools took to prevent spread is also interesting and shows the importance of increased hygiene/health and safety measures. That's all we are looking for.

    The successful regions all implemented some sort of increased health and hygiene protocols. Isreal then, where they are having issues with new school related cases, seem not to have. I need to read up on it more as I'm not familiar with their education system.




    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8406723/amp/Secondary-schools-resume-Spain-Netherlands-South-Africa.html?__twitter_impression=true

    Yes I think if you're having schools go back there needs to be a protocol if there is an outbreak of cases in a school and results within 24 hours. Individual schools should be shut very quickly if there is a spike.

    The other issue I would see is that there will be students sent to school when they are unwell. I don't know how you get around that. Temperature checks in the morning don't really help for screening but at least having them there would hopefully dissuade parents from sending those kids to school.


  • #4517
    khalessi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,216 ✭✭✭khalessi


    thomasdylan wrote: »
    Yes I think if you're having schools go back there needs to be a protocol if there is an outbreak of cases in a school and results within 24 hours. Individual schools should be shut very quickly if there is a spike.

    The other issue I would see is that there will be students sent to school when they are unwell. I don't know how you get around that. Temperature checks in the morning don't really help for screening but at least having them there would hopefully dissuade parents from sending those kids to school.

    That will be difficult especially if they are given calpol, and as pointed out during todays debate, teachers coming to school sick because they are trying to avoid extra presure on colleagues.


  • #4518
    Alex86Eire
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 331 ✭✭Alex86Eire


    I'd absolutely love to get back to school full time in September. It will be impossible if the 1 m rule is still in play.
    I think I'd be happy out if they scrapped the 1 m rule, we social distanced where/if possible and the govt funded PPE/deep cleaning/temperature checking materials.


  • #4519
    khalessi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,216 ✭✭✭khalessi


    Alex86Eire wrote: »
    I'd absolutely love to get back to school full time in September. It will be impossible if the 1 m rule is still in play.
    I think I'd be happy out if they scrapped the 1 m rule, we social distanced where/if possible and the govt funded PPE/deep cleaning/temperature checking materials.

    Ahhh definitely will be scrapped as totally impossible to maintain


  • #4520
    Alex86Eire
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 331 ✭✭Alex86Eire


    I'd absolutely love to get back to school full time in September. It will be impossible if the 1 m rule is still in play.
    I think I'd be happy out if they scrapped the 1 m rule, we social distanced where/if possible and the govt funded PPE/deep cleaning/temperature checking materials.

    There definitely needs to be clear protocol though in how to deal with possible covid symptoms etc.


  • #4521
    History Queen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,488 ✭✭✭History Queen


    thomasdylan wrote: »
    Yes I think if you're having schools go back there needs to be a protocol if there is an outbreak of cases in a school and results within 24 hours. Individual schools should be shut very quickly if there is a spike.

    The other issue I would see is that there will be students sent to school when they are unwell. I don't know how you get around that. Temperature checks in the morning don't really help for screening but at least having them there would hopefully dissuade parents from sending those kids to school.

    Yes students being sent in ill (and teachers coming to school ill) is a problem. Also, purely as I work in second level I want schools to have a robust and clear no nonsense clause in their code of behaviour that parents sign up to for dealing with students coughing on/at each other and staff. Teenagers at the end of the day are teenagers and will do these things 'for the craic' and see no harm in it.

    (I've mentioned this before but just to be clear its just a local arrangement issue not a keep the schools closed argument!)


    I could be wrong but I could swear I read something in the guidance document specifically saying schools shouldn't take temperatures as a screening tool... I could be wrong now on that I'll try find where I saw it.


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  • #4522
    History Queen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,488 ✭✭✭History Queen


    Alex86Eire wrote: »
    I'd absolutely love to get back to school full time in September. It will be impossible if the 1 m rule is still in play.
    I think I'd be happy out if they scrapped the 1 m rule, we social distanced where/if possible and the govt funded PPE/deep cleaning/temperature checking materials.

    ^I agree with this completely.


  • #4523
    ldy4mxonucwsq6
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,537 ✭✭✭ldy4mxonucwsq6


    richardw001 wrote: »
    Most of the country is back working now and dealing with Covid as best they can - and the latest information abroad does indicate that there is significantly less risk in schools than most other places.

    So maybe I misread it - It really came accross as ASTI would basically refuse to turn up to work, as a union deciding they know better than the rest of the world and would decide when they return to work (and on what terms)

    So I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and assume this is not the case :-)

    Because really I think if it did does turn out to be the stance they are taking - I think they will be in for a shock on how the rest of the country will react to them.

    With everyone else trying to get on with life as best they can - trying to dictate terms would not be a good place to be.

    It really not surprising, difficult for the sake of it.

    They will be doing their members a great disservice with their attitude rather than trying to work together and get the show on the road.

    Let them drag their members into strike action and see how well that works out for them.

    Because people have had quite enough of it at this stage and there will be zero public support or sympathy.

    No teacher wants to go unpaid and be on the picket line, definitely not somewhere anyone would want to be under these current circumstances.


  • #4524
    History Queen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,488 ✭✭✭History Queen


    Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »
    It really not surprising, difficult for the sake of it.

    They will be doing their members a great disservice with their attitude rather than trying to work together and get the show on the road.

    Let them drag their members into strike action and see how well that works out for them.

    Because people have had quite enough of it at this stage and there will be zero public support or sympathy.

    No teacher wants to go unpaid and be on the picket line, definitely not somewhere anyone would want to be under these current circumstances.

    I don't know where you are getting the idea that they are dragging their members in to strike action? Nothing of the sort was suggested. I explained the context of the quote above. I'm not sure if the debate is available to rewatch online but in context you would see that that is not what was happening.


  • #4525
    99nsr125
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,207 ✭✭✭99nsr125


    BonsaiKitten wrote: »
    Yeah, not over summer we're not. The salary covers termtime only but gets split over 12 months. Quite happy to do a few extra weeks if they pay me properly - though I can't see the Govt going for it!

    Sigh

    How many contributions do you get per year
    1 per week over the entire year or
    1 per week of term time

    If it's the former then you are either at work or on vacation.

    Could you claim social welfare outside of term time, if the answer is no then surely the answer is . . . .








    My better half is a teacher these are her points


  • #4526
    khalessi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,216 ✭✭✭khalessi


    History Queen wrote: »
    Yes students being sent in ill (and teachers coming to school ill) is a problem. Also, purely as I work in second level I want schools to have a robust and clear no nonsense clause in their code of behaviour that parents sign up to for dealing with students coughing on/at each other and staff. Teenagers at the end of the day are teenagers and will do these things 'for the craic' and see no harm in it.

    (I've mentioned this before but just to be clear its just a local arrangement issue not a keep the schools closed argument!)


    I could be wrong but I could swear I read something in the guidance document specifically saying schools shouldn't take temperatures as a screening tool... I could be wrong now on that I'll try find where I saw it.

    It was mentioned in the HSE interim document and again during todays debate in the Dail


  • #4527
    History Queen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,488 ✭✭✭History Queen


    khalessi wrote: »
    It was mentioned in the HSE interim document and again during todays debate in the Dail

    Ah thanks. Thought I was imagining things as couldn't find it when I looked back.


  • #4528
    BonsaiKitten
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,798 ✭✭✭BonsaiKitten


    99nsr125 wrote: »
    Sigh

    How many contributions do you get per year
    1 per week over the entire year or
    1 per week of term time

    If it's the former then you are either at work or on vacation.

    Could you claim social welfare outside of term time, if the answer is no then surely the answer is . . . .



    My better half is a teacher these are her points

    My contract explicitly says that I am paid for my contact days. Yes, my pay is split over 12 months but summer is outside of my contact hours. This is why the daily pay of a sub teacher is higher than that of a permanent staff member - they get the 'true' daily rate as the wage isn't split over 12 months.

    As I said I'm not against starting a couple of weeks early myself but while it's a wonderful job, it's only a job at the end of the day. If this extra work is so important then they can pay me to do it.


  • #4529
    Dublingirl80
    Closed Accounts Posts: 244 ✭✭Dublingirl80


    The ironic part about all this is that teachers will be in full time regardless. The risk comes to all members of the school community if the social distancing is not followed. Or hygiene due to lack of funding. But there is no doubt the teacher will be full time. People seem to be pushing for kids to be in unsafe environments due to childcare issues. Are they working in a room of 30 daily with no distancing? Children and staff deserve the same respect and safety protocols as any other job. Sorry but the amount of people who would point blank refuse to go back into an office but are pushing for the kids to be back in crowded classrooms is high I would say. If the virus gets to the children and spreads it also gets to your household and spreads. This isn't teachers versus parents. The virus doesn't discriminate and as seen in many schools that have reopened, it spreads very fast in community settings such as these when distancing isn't followed. Distancing is there for a reason. This thread is infuriating.


  • #4530
    mcsean2163
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,839 ✭✭✭mcsean2163


    khalessi wrote: »
    The reason you didnt hear anything about it from the Nurses Union, is because ppe and restrictions were already in place and were upgraded, without having to be persuaded. They spent millions shipping in PPE and setting up wards hiring hotels etc.

    The Departement offered to centrally buy soap. So forgive the unions if they are worried but it needs to be said. Like you say everyone is entitled to safe workspace and for teachers the only way it will be got is if noise is made to bring it to the attention of public and Dept. They are trying to protect staff and your children and mine.

    The Dept were also supposed to issue guideline a fornight ago but didnt spoke instead of aspirations and bespoke solutions. Instead guideline issued by HSE

    Wow, just wow. You actually think that?

    We have the highest infection rates for healthcare workers in the world. Have you even seen the PPE that was used in hospitals?


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  • #4531
    mcsean2163
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,839 ✭✭✭mcsean2163


    BonsaiKitten wrote: »
    Yeah, not over summer we're not. The salary covers termtime only but gets split over 12 months. Quite happy to do a few extra weeks if they pay me properly - though I can't see the Govt going for it!

    As someone who became unemployed and ended up home schooling/ stay at home dad, the level of entitlement here is sickening to me.


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