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Relaxation of Restrictions, Part IV - **Read OP for Mod Warnings**

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,231 ✭✭✭✭pjohnson


    I dont think excess cancer deaths in 2021 is an opinion. Its something that will highly likely happen.

    Shocking how you dismiss OP.

    I didn't expect Gingey to be making fictional models given how offended the open up crowd got by models.


    Will you be disgusted if your models dont come to pass?



    First it was open up to stop suicides/mental health but when that didnt work ye've now tried to piggyback on cancer deaths. Classy.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,130 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    Thats some pontificating tripe anyway

    Usual sycophants following you too. No surprise to me. Have you anything to say about what I said.

    I doubt it. Don't know why I am surprised.


  • Posts: 10,049 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    skelly22 wrote: »
    You can't pretend to present this as definitive proof that lockdown in Ireland prevented thousands upon thousands of deaths. As I said, there is no proof.

    Is “prove it” all you have? I presented data that supports the efficacy of lockdown and could do likewise with 20+ more examples, but you will just say prove it because you have nothing to refute it. Nothing will convince you short of hopping in a Delorean and knocking off Tony Holohan and Simon Harris on the first of March


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,130 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    Thats some pontificating tripe anyway

    Did I touch a nerve there or what. Anger is the usual reply to something you cannot deal with.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,447 ✭✭✭Ginger n Lemon


    pjohnson wrote: »
    I didn't expect Gingey to be making fictional models given how offended the open up crowd got by models.


    Will you be disgusted if your models dont come to pass?



    First it was open up to stop suicides/mental health but when that didnt work ye've now tried to piggyback on cancer deaths. Classy.

    Pj! I ll be delighted if my models dont come to pass.

    Sad to see you still disregard suicides. Hope u ll change.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,257 ✭✭✭✭Arghus


    I watched it alright. The sadest part was the folk dying alone.

    2nd only to the pontificating thats started here

    Really, you did? I must say I'm surprised.

    What did you think about the part where one of the head nurses in ICU was practically in tears talking about her frustration about seeing people on the outside acting like everything was okay and how mortally afraid she and her colleagues were about what could happen in the future. She put people's behaviour down to "ignorance".


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,231 ✭✭✭✭pjohnson


    Pj! I ll be delighted if my models dont come to pass.

    Sad to see you still disregard suicides. Hope u ll change.

    No I just didnt jump on the callous bandwagon you guys tried to get going to try and force things to open recklessly a la Sweden/UK/USA. The faux concern about suicide was a disgusting tactic.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,179 ✭✭✭✭fr336


    Ignorance is the word. Maybe it would have been good if those dying alone hadn't died at all.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,231 ✭✭✭✭pjohnson


    Clearly she's an actor paid by RTE or the government or Bill Gates or whoever people like to accuse of these things these days.

    Tony Hoolahan I bet. Part of his grand scheme to take over the world.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,656 ✭✭✭FintanMcluskey


    fr336 wrote: »
    Ignorance is the word. Maybe it would have been good if those dying alone hadn't died at all.

    Eternal life perhaps?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,257 ✭✭✭✭Arghus


    fr336 wrote: »
    Ignorance is the word. Maybe it would have been good if those dying alone hadn't died at all.

    And let's talk about hypothetical suicides and completely disregard the mental anguish of relatives of people who died, in reality, and the absolutely hellish and relentless reality for people treating them on the front line.


  • Posts: 10,049 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Pj! I ll be delighted if my models dont come to pass.

    Sad to see you still disregard suicides. Hope u ll change.

    Does your model factor in reduced car accidents, reduced workplace accidents, reduced air pollution and exposure to air pollution bringing down acute respiratory conditions and cancers, reduced Heart attacks....


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,179 ✭✭✭✭fr336


    pjohnson wrote: »
    Tony Hoolahan I bet. Part of his grand scheme to take over the world.

    He's doing a great job in fairness. People haven't been allowed to leave their homes since March and I don't know when people will get to enjoy a pint again, it's scary!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,447 ✭✭✭Ginger n Lemon


    Eternal life perhaps?

    That seems to be the theme here.

    If you talk about life expectancy... gonna get crucified.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 182 ✭✭skelly22


    Is “prove it” all you have? I presented data that supports the efficacy of lockdown and could do likewise with 20+ more examples, but you will just say prove it because you have nothing to refute it. Nothing will convince you short of hopping in a Delorean and knocking off Tony Holohan and Simon Harris on the first of March

    If you could do that last part for me it would be greatly appreciated. Look, I purported there was no proof and you took me up on it providing data, data that I can equally come back to you with opposing data. So we'll beg to differ.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,179 ✭✭✭✭fr336


    Eternal life perhaps?

    How many deaths would you be content with before you'd do something. Genuinely curious. And if it killed young people in significant amounts (it does kill too many young people when allowed to spread for my liking) would your response be different? Or should we abandon all cures for illness? Hey let's stop fighting terrorism eh? After all we will die eventually right? Let's get rid of the police, no need for them. Sack the doctors, the nurses, we don't need any of them we will all die some day.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,337 ✭✭✭CruelSummer


    Arghus wrote: »
    Anyone been watching the documentaries about the ICU ward of St. James over the last two days?

    Ignorance is bliss I guess lads, right?

    Do you realise medical staff do this day in, day out as part of their job. They’re amazing and I’ve huge respect for them. Saw parts of it, it seemed to show vulnerable people to Covid and how they were affected + their care at hospitals from what I saw? I also saw plenty of healthy medical staff going around the wards thank God.
    I’m very uncomfortable with the idea that patients who are severely ill were filmed on camera for national television, be if for Covid, Cancer, or anything else. Personally, I don’t think it’s right.
    Incidentally, if they make a similar documentary about cancer will you be watching it?
    I think it’s quite disturbing that posters such as yourself would use a documentary such as that, as a tool to gloat with here, very sad.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,231 ✭✭✭✭pjohnson


    Arghus wrote: »
    And let's talk about hypothetical suicides and completely disregard the mental anguish of relatives of people who died, in reality, and the absolutely hellish and relentless reality for people treating them on the front line.

    And spend the whole pandemic laughing at/mocking anyone who followed restrictions.

    Certainly the caring selfless type indeed :pac:



    And then theres the worry about the economy before immediately flying to support the Spanish economy when you get the chance instead of supporting the economy you are so so worried about.


    The open up crowd are a fascinating pile of contradictions with no idea they constantly contradict themselves. No wonder one of them couldn't work a mask :pac:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,447 ✭✭✭Ginger n Lemon


    fr336 wrote: »
    He's doing a great job in fairness. People haven't been allowed to leave their homes since March and I don't know when people will get to enjoy a pint again, it's scary!

    20th of July is when you can enjoy a pint in a pub without needing to buy food.

    Pubs serving alcohol will be shut for 4 full months to 20th July. 2 months and 2 weeks after we flattened the curve.

    Let that sink in.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,656 ✭✭✭FintanMcluskey


    Arghus wrote: »
    Really, you did? I must say I'm surprised.

    What did you think about the part where one of the head nurses in ICU was practically in tears talking about her frustration about seeing people on the outside acting like everything was okay and how mortally afraid she and her colleagues were about what could happen in the future. She put people's behaviour down to "ignorance".

    I dont think she was in any state to take part in a choreographed dance tik tok video right then anyway!

    Im joking. She was in the countries main dedicated hospital in the most densely populated city trying to treat elderly patients who were suffering with a respitory illness.

    She was under immesne pressure caused by an illness introducted to nursing homes by mismanagement.

    Her stress and emotion was not caused by people who had no control of those nursing homes or were not involved in them.


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  • Posts: 10,049 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    skelly22 wrote: »
    Is “prove it” all you have? I presented data that supports the efficacy of lockdown and could do likewise with 20+ more examples, but you will just say prove it because you have nothing to refute it. Nothing will convince you short of hopping in a Delorean and knocking off Tony Holohan and Simon Harris on the first of March[/QUOTE]

    If you could do that last part for me it would be greatly appreciated. Look, I purported there was no proof and you took me up on it providing data, data that I can equally come back to you with opposing data. So we'll beg to differ.

    If you actually provided data we could have a discussion on it. The argument on the effectiveness of lockdowns or similar measures was a live one a month ago as data was not at all clear. It has become clear since however as certain places have maintained a low level, while other have at best plateaued, and at worst spiralled towards disaster. Sweden is about the best argument for no lockdown, but more of in the way that Leeds are the best team in the championship.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 917 ✭✭✭MickeyLeari


    It basically clarifies that NPHET are not the Government and that it is the Government and the DFA that decide Ireland’s travel arrangements. Currently as it stands, the Government advise against non-essential travel. But it is not forbidden.
    It also goes into detail as to why is it not a good approach for Dr Tony to use his daily medical briefings to determine the Government policy on travel. Here is the article:

    “IT IS time for someone to step in and implement a coherent, planned strategy for return to travel.
    Lately, heads have been left spinning in Ireland from a merry-go-round of medical advice.

    From as far back as the days of the Black Death, pulling up the drawbridge has been a typical reaction to the approach of plague.

    But when do you let the drawbridge back down again?

    That decision has always been more difficult.

    There is no prohibition on travel but there is ample confusion.

    If we can be clear on one thing, the Government policy is against non-essential travel.

    This is not a ban on all foreign travel and it is important to note the difference.

    The advice from the National Public Health Emergency Team (Nphet), therefore, is not in keeping with Government policy.

    Individuals need explicit guidelines on where is safe to go to and where is not. Once they have the appropriate information, they will then be in a position to make a balanced decision.

    It needs a strong Government message to make such decisions, and the communication needs to come not through medical briefings, but through a minister.

    This is not business as usual, or even business as unusual, but it is business all the same.

    Today sees the effective reopening of air travel to and from Ireland.

    Ryanair are putting 40pc of their fleet back in the sky.

    There are 80 departures scheduled from Dublin airport. This is a respectable amount, although well short of the 250-plus we could expect at this time in a normal year.

    Shannon and Cork, confined to one and two routes respectively during the worst of the lockdown, are opening at about 25pc capacity. Knock, which had closed entirely, is just happy to be open.

    Load factors are higher on some routes than others. Ryanair reports 80pc on some services. One existing Aer Lingus route has been running at a particularly high load factor already.

    The airports are learning how to deal with social distancing, or the the closest to social distancing that their spatial requirements allow. Passengers are learning about contactless check-in, wearing masks and boarding in small groups.

    But the biggest learning curve of all is the one we face as a nation and as an economy: How are we going to return to international travel without importing an unwanted and unseen stowaway?

    Over the past few days it is not clear who exactly is deciding this strategy.

    The European Commission has a policy in place. This guided the aviation policy.

    Many people who read and heard Nphet’s call for people to cancel holidays already booked, think this has overtaken national policy.

    But it has not.

    We are used to having our travel policy set out by the Department of Foreign Affairs and the appropriate minsters and ambassadors in affected countries, but not on the basis of the doctor’s diagnoses at a press conference.

    Like much of the infrastructure of travel, that system, with its careful checks and balances, has fallen apart.

    Instead, as a caretaker Governmental created something of a vacuum in politics, we have what passes as international travel policy being promulgated by health officials at media events.


    These health officials and doctors are doing their job. Nothing more, nothing less.

    Their goal, which they will relentlessly pursue, is to arrive at zero cases and zero risk.

    They have identified and rightly raised their concerns over infections brought to the country by returning travellers, mainly from non-tourism destinations.


    But the reality of incoming infections is going to be with us in the long term and will have to be confronted sooner or later.

    This is something the Government must engage with, not Nphet.

    Nphet is also not charged with taking on board considerations like the fact that 75pc of tourism income is visitor spending, and that a lengthy quarantine sends a message to the world that Ireland is closed for business.

    Future bookings for Ireland over the next nine months are being diverted to countries that are perceived as "open for business" — even though some of them have worse infection rates than Ireland.

    Even the family holiday, a discretionary and recreational aspect of tourism, has been targeted.

    This is a large investment by Irish families.

    If they cancel these, they will not receive any compensation.

    If the period of restored flights is to be replaced by a period of mass cancellations, where does that leave us?

    The business of aviation and connectivity is complex.

    There are inbound and outbound systems that are carefully balanced and driven by supply-and-demand requirements.

    Right now, big decisions must be made by households of people who are overcome by confusion and fear.

    When you start tinkering with one part of the engine, it can be shocking to see how many other parts fail.

    International travel is vital to a country like Ireland, positioned as an open economy dependent on movement of people and investment without borders.

    We are confronted with a long list of problems and we need to know where we are going.”

    If I could thank this a 1000 times I would. It highlights many of the governance issues I have been banging on about.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,656 ✭✭✭FintanMcluskey


    fr336 wrote: »
    How many deaths would you be content with before you'd do something. Genuinely curious. And if it killed young people in significant amounts (it does kill too many young people when allowed to spread for my liking) would your response be different? Or should we abandon all cures for illness? Hey let's stop fighting terrorism eh? After all we will die eventually right? Let's get rid of the police, no need for them. Sack the doctors, the nurses, we don't need any of them we will all die some day.

    Why didnt we help the 4.5m that died of starvation this year?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,179 ✭✭✭✭fr336


    20th of July is when you can enjoy a pint in a pub without needing to buy food.

    Pubs serving alcohol will be shut for 4 full months to 20th July. 2 months and 2 weeks after we flattened the curve.

    Let that sink in.

    Talk about first world problems. I might have more sympathy if it was Christmas instead of 20 days time.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,179 ✭✭✭✭fr336


    Why didnt we help the 4.5m that died of starvation this year?

    Because we were too busy wearing clothes made in slave factories, polluting the environment, waging proxy wars over resources, buying pointless tat in shops and going down the pub?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,949 ✭✭✭ChikiChiki


    Irish Aris wrote: »
    For the bolded part, I think low corporate income tax plays a role in big companies coming here (plus the good infrastructure and access to good staff).
    For the rest I generally agree with you. I think there could be countries with better quality of life, but comparing to Greece where I come from I think there are some aspects of everyday life that are better than Greece - and to your point many Eastern European countries would be the same.

    There's no value for what we earn in Ireland. Saying that, if we travelled to Greece or anywhere else for that matter we are absolutely loaded.

    The cost of living here makes people seem poor. Try going to Brazil with no opportunities to get off the bottom rung of the ladder. That is real poverty.

    In Ireland we all have opportunities and avenues if we really want it. It seems to be the aspiration of many people around the globe to get to Ireland. Us natives take what we have for granted a lot of the time. Sure I might be living in a 40 year old Semi D that's creaking, but there's a world of safety and opportunity outside that door or even indoors with high speed broadband. That is wealth.

    As I grew up I thought it was a kip because it looked nothing like some of the Beverly Hills homes. But I've travelled and seen, how wrong was I.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,257 ✭✭✭✭Arghus


    Do you realise medical staff do this day in, day out as part of their job. They’re amazing and I’ve huge respect for them. Saw parts of it, it seemed to show vulnerable people to Covid and how they were affected + their care at hospitals from what I saw? I also saw plenty of healthy medical staff going around the wards thank God.
    I’m very uncomfortable with the idea that patients who are severely ill were filmed on camera for national television, be if for Covid, Cancer, or anything else. Personally, I don’t think it’s right.
    Incidentally, if they make a similar documentary about cancer will you be watching it?
    I think it’s quite disturbing that posters such as yourself would use a documentary such as that, as a tool to gloat with here, very sad.

    I'm not gloating, far from it. I actually feel quite sad. The typical, gleeful, thoughtless responses dismay me. One of the main men in this thread has just made a bit of a - 4 or 5 posts up - joke about "life expectancy" - implying these people who died shouldn't have expected much more life anyway and that sure, what can you do, they were old anyway. And you think I'm the loser here? Look at who it is making light of it - do you really want to be an ally of that utter lack of empathy?

    The documentary showed quite clearly that the suffering and anguish that we hear everyday about the disease is just about numbers and cases, but real people.

    And it is a dangerous and cruel disease, despite how much many in here have constantly sought to play down or explain away.

    And your implication that I don't care as much about the suffering of cancer victims is utterly shameful.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,447 ✭✭✭Ginger n Lemon


    fr336 wrote: »
    Talk about first world problems. I might have more sympathy if it was Christmas instead of 20 days time.

    So 30,000 unemployed from March to December might get your sympathy? Wow.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,719 ✭✭✭dundalkfc10


    pjohnson wrote: »
    And spend the whole pandemic laughing at/mocking anyone who followed restrictions.

    Certainly the caring selfless type indeed :pac:



    And then theres the worry about the economy before immediately flying to support the Spanish economy when you get the chance instead of supporting the economy you are so so worried about.


    The open up crowd are a fascinating pile of contradictions with no idea they constantly contradict themselves. No wonder one of them couldn't work a mask :pac:

    Costing us 500 euro flights and 700 for an apartment for 2 weeks Portugal, 1200 5 adults 1 kid

    Wouldnt get a week in Ireland for that

    Pints, Food, Entertainment all cheaper.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,337 ✭✭✭CruelSummer


    Arghus wrote: »
    I'm not gloating, far from it. I actually feel quite sad. The typical, gleeful, thoughtless responses dismay me. One of the main men in this thread has just made a bit of a - 4 or 5 posts up - joke about "life expectancy" - implying these people who died shouldn't have expected much more life anyway and that sure, what can you do, they were old anyway. And you think I'm the loser here?

    The documentary showed quite clearly that the suffering and anguish that we hear everyday about the disease is just about numbers and cases, but real people?

    And it is a dangerous and cruel disease, despite how much many in here have constantly sought to play down or explain away.

    And your implication that I don't care as much about the suffering of cancer victims is utterly shameful.

    I really don’t know what you’re talking about, no one said anything about a loser. This isn’t about winning and losing. I didn’t imply you don’t care about suffering of cancer victims either, I asked would you watch such a documentary as it is one of the biggest killer diseases in Ireland and the world today but doesn’t get the awareness needed in my opinion recently due to Covid.


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