Cycling on paths and other cycling issues (updated title)

meeeeh wrote: »

I grew up in the country. Enforcement was always quite strict (we had to carry cycling licence as kids) and infrastructure wasn't always there. Enforcement is probably more due to larger volume of traffic and larger numbers of people cycling and not because infrastructure is that great. (BTW There is not much fuss about hi viz as far as I know but helmets are mandatory for kids.) Driving culture is worse there than here. Speeding only improved in last decade or so and drink driving (and drink cycling) is still a problem.

Law enforcement is usually down to resources. When resources are limited, then enforcement concentrates on the more serious infringements.

Our judicial system also makes enforcement of minor infringements tedious, heavy on administration and time consuming. There's very little incentive for Gardai to enforce ROTR for cyclists.

SeanW wrote: »

Nobody's trying to blame cyclists for road deaths. Nevertheless, Irish drivers are generally not dangerous. The data on that is clear.

But there is a lot of deflection ...

Here we go again.

Every time I go out cycling, I'm passed dangerously by motorists who take chances with my life to save themselves less than a minute.

None of these incidents ever show up in your data.

And even though it happens every time I'm cycling, you come on here constantly lying about motorists. Even though it's proven (in data!) about how they break the law while driving.

Some bubble you live in.

SeanW wrote: »

And it shows. Clearly.

It shows no rules really need to be enforced on cyclists because no one is getting harmed by them, you may as well start fining pedestrians. Cycling is nothing but good for society.

Beta Ray Bill wrote: »

I think it's more they don't want to pay the toll more so than anything else.
I'll always use the motorway if I need to get somewhere fast.

So all the drivers on Grange Road around Ballinteer and Rathfarnham, why aren't they on the M50 heading for Tallaght or Ballyroan? No tolls around there. I mean, we build these bloddy motorways and they won't bloddy use them! Is that how it works?

At least the M50 is reasonably well built and managed.
https://irishcycle.com/2015/11/05/images-25-reasons-why-cyclists-dont-use-cycle-lanes

Beta Ray Bill wrote: »

That would involved the average motorist having to look at themselves in the mirror... and that's not going to happen.
I will say though that when I do use the car it's only to collect my kid as he lives 30k round trip away.
Apart from that my car sits in the driveway Monday to Friday

It would certainly involve the average motorist having to rev up their brain and actually think things through a little.

I'm frequently amazed at how few drivers seemed to have worked out that it is in their interests to promote and encourage cycling. The more people they can persuade to switch from cars to bikes, the more room there is left on the road for the remaining drivers.
Maybe it’s all the fumes that slows down their thinking;
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/aug/27/air-pollution-causes-huge-reduction-in-intelligence-study-reveals

Beta Ray Bill wrote: »

I don't know where you're getting the 2 or 3 a week being killed
I had google there and it says 83 cyclists were killed between 2010 and 2018 that works out at 0.2 a week.

In any case, even if they thought the use of a lifesaver, large amounts of cyclists do not do this. I notice because I'm on a motorcycle.

Most road deaths aren’t cyclists. Most road deaths are motorists killing themselves, other motorists and passengers. So do you want to put all your effort and resources into teaching cyclists to do the livesaver, and maybe saving 2 or 3 lives at best, or do you want to put all your effort and resources into making sure motorists slow down, put their phones down, put their pints down. They’re the things that will really save lives on the road.
What’s your priority?
What is the irresistible temptation to ‘fix’ cycling and ignore the real problems on the road?

Beta Ray Bill wrote: »

Theft, there's heaps of bikes nicked in Dublin every year.

How exactly would a bolted or screwed on reg plate help theft, when the VIN number on the bottom bracket of the frame is already there?

Beta Ray Bill wrote: »

Also, Regulation is a good thing.
I've a helmet cam and record everything, I report dopes driving cars like dopes all the time.

So you know how difficult it is to get the Gardai to act on these issues, even when you have clear video evidence, right?

SeanW wrote: »

Correct. In 2018 Ireland suffered 149 road fatalities. That was among the lowest in the world by every relative measure. If you are in Ireland, you have an approximately 99.99625% of surviving us motorists every year.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate
It's also near the lowest in Irish history, figures in the 100-200 range have not been seen since the 1940s.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_road_traffic_accidents_deaths_in_Republic_of_Ireland_by_year

Irish drivers are not terrible. That's an indisputable fact. That doesn't stop sanctimonious two-wheeled hypocrites from hijacking every discussion with: bUt mOtOrIsTs aRe kIlLiNg eVeRyBoDy

Not quite ‘killing everybody’ – more that they’re killing close to three people each on average, the vast majority of which are avoidable deaths. Presumably you agree that they are avoidable, given that you’ve posted no examples of unavoidable deaths.

SeanW wrote: »

Firstly, there have been at least half a dozen routine pedestrians in this thread who can attest to the fact that Irish cyclists DO cause problems. And yet this entire thread has been a circle jerk of Andy and his fellow two-wheeled hypocrites crapping all over motorists ...

How many have there been saying that you might have exaggerated the problem? Or saying, like Dora, “At no point have I ever felt endangered by cyclists on the footpath”?
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=113811362&postcount=1615

SeanW wrote: »

Well, if that 149 had been in another country, they would been 200+. But what gets me about Andy and his circlejerk (and to be clear, I'm not including you in this per-se) is the hypocrisy. "No no, let's not talk about cyclist misbheaviour 98% OF MOTORISTS ARE LAWBREAKING SCUM!! WE NEED MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF OBSCENE OVERREGULATION ON MOTORISTS BECAUSE THEY'RE KILLING EVERYBODY!!"
When you see this as a response to any criticism of cyclist lawbreaking, you have to wonder if there's not some kind of deflection going on.

Just to be clear, it’s your good self who uses terms like ‘lawbreaking scum’ and (my own particular favourite) ‘menacing with intent’ about pavement cyclists, while repeatedly defending motorists who break the speed limit (while speeding is one of the top three causes of road deaths).
You’re not really in much of a position to talk about hypocrisy.

FinnC wrote: »

In fairness plenty on here have defended it and tried to justify it! Dont ask me for names of who as I have no idea of anyones usernames as I don't look at them.

Don’t need names, but could you like to a few of the examples of the ‘plenty’ who defended it?

Hurrache wrote: »

Sean seems to be getting pretty stressed about this. A relaxing cycle would help him unwind.

He certainly needs to get the ride all right.

SeanW wrote: »

Nobody's trying to blame cyclists for road deaths. Nevertheless, Irish drivers are generally not dangerous. The data on that is clear.

But there is a lot of deflection ...

It’s not really deflection though, when drivers have killed 4,000 people here since the turn of the century, while cyclists have killed two people. It is really just a very basic level of holding people accountable for outcome of their actions. You seem to be very resistant to that, for some strange reason.

SeanW wrote: »

And it shows. Clearly.

Does the 98% of motorists breaking urban speed limits show anything clearly at all?

Here's a great example of the best drivers in the world, apparently;

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=113823534&postcount=1656

TaurenDruid wrote: »

Today's drive home:

At the lights on the corner of Baggot Street/Ely Place/Merrion Street. Cyclist illegally cycles towards Stephen's Green, through a red light (in fairness he couldn't see the red light - but only because he was cycling the wrong way down a one-way street), crosses Ely Place, clearly heading for (really narrow) footpath. Pedestrian has to step on to road to let him onto it.

Westland Row. Cyclist zooms past and straight through the junction, despite lights having gone red in time for the car in front of me to have stopped.

Amiens Street. Cyclist heading towards town, having a facetime video conversation on his phone.

North Strand Road, just before the fire station. Deliveroo cyclist on the footpath, forces two women pushing prams wide so he can stay on footpath, before speeding up as he hits the corner of Leinster Avenue and heads down the side streets.

I'm not really sure that you'll want to play that game. In a one hour spin this evening, I saw two clear red light jumps, had words with two drivers that passed me with phones in their hands, lost count of the number of times I was pushed out into traffic by illegally parked cars and vans, had words with one driver blocking the path to make a phone call - and probably a pile of other offences. And let's not forget the idiot that tailgaited me for 20-30 seconds, before rushing past to stop at the next lights.

But if you want a list, I'll keep a better eye out tomorrow. Hell, I can provide video evidence of most.

ewc78 wrote: »

I expect this post to be met with an unhealthy dose of Whataboutery.

Or actualities. Like has been said, you don't want to play that game when it comes to cars driving through red lights, illegal turns etc. It's a pretty sad thing to note and post when you get home in fairness.

Do I really need to again post the Gardai results of a survey in which they overwhelmingly found motorists break red lights compared to cyclists?

Anyway, it's about time Ripley comes looking for that time trialling alien and kill the **** out of this whole place with fire.

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I'm not really sure that you'll want to play that game. In a one hour spin this evening, I saw two clear red light jumps, had words with two drivers that passed me with phones in their hands, lost count of the number of times I was pushed out into traffic by illegally parked cars and vans, had words with one driver blocking the path to make a phone call - and probably a pile of other offences. And let's not forget the idiot that tailgaited me for 20-30 seconds, before rushing past to stop at the next lights.

But if you want a list, I'll keep a better eye out tomorrow. Hell, I can provide video evidence of most.

Yeah, but that's all fiiiine, Andy. We've already established this. How does it go again? "At the end of the day, nobody was hurt!"

That's the one!

It is case of the "broken window syndrome". Allowing small scale crime go unpunished creates an atmosphere of lawlessness which facilitates bigger crime. Consequently, it is not a case of the police having better things to do.

TaurenDruid wrote: »

So, what's your point? Some cyclists will continue to be assholes cos cops won't enforce the law?

Pretty much yes. Same for all roadusers and all ROTR.

Hurrache wrote: »

Why are you still obsessed with something that has been made clear from the outset of this thread?

See post #2!

micar wrote: »

Drove past Castleblaney Garda station on Sunday. Plenty of cars each side and opposite parked on the footpath.

If you go into Google street view, there are 14.

If you were to enforce the footpath law most of the suburban area I live in would probably have to get rid of their cars, there simply isn't enough space

TaurenDruid wrote: »

Yeah, but that's all fiiiine, Andy. We've already established this. How does it go again? "At the end of the day, nobody was hurt!"

That's the one!

No, it goes like this - drivers kill about 3 people on the roads each week.

So yeah, somebody was hurt.

Charles Babbage wrote: »

It is case of the "broken window syndrome". Allowing small scale crime go unpunished creates an atmosphere of lawlessness which facilitates bigger crime. Consequently, it is not a case of the police having better things to do.

The broken window syndrome didn't really stand up to any serious analysis. It was a nice story for Guliani, but look where it got him.

But if you want to start with small scale crime, should we start with the 98% of drivers that break urban speed limits?

liamog wrote: »

Yes, it's ridiculous, but given the posters who seem intent on making it an us versus them fight it's not that surprising. Which is exactly the point I was making.

It's not so much 'us against them' as it is 'evidence against emotion'.

liamog wrote: »

I lived in Paris for the last year, they had great cycle lanes, and a really good system where a number of junctions are treated like yield signs for those on bikes. Perhaps instead of winding up every person who happens to sometimes use a car, it's better to advocate why it's an improvement for every road user. Change comes about from tragedy or broad coalition, maybe it's time we stop letting tragedy be the driver of improvements.

I made pretty much the same point in the 2nd comment in this post.

Zebra3 wrote: »

Your attitude of playing down those who risk other people's lives is utterly vile.

And don't forget the playing down the risk of motoring is combined with attacking cyclists as 'lawbreaking scum' and 'menacing with intent'.

Here's another one of those 'menacing with intent' cyclists