Police Shooting USA. Rayshard Brooks.

lawrencesummers · 14-06-2020 7:52am #1

Cops called because a guy was asleep in his car in the queue for a drive through.
Failed field sobriety test.
Tussled with cops.
Shot and killed.
Looks on the outset like another use of excessive Force by police, but there is so much more wrong with it.

One cop has been fired and the other is Put on leave.

Firing somebody that immediately and without due process is probably in a bid to quell the protests - (but it hasn’t) But it can’t be right, surely these matters need investigation, statements and the a just decision, which may well be dismissal / charges filed etc.

There is a big risk of the authorities in the USA actually losing their own police force if they don’t maintain the law and order and due process that everyone deserves. Has the cop in this instance actually violated the procedures That are given to him for arresting people? If a cop needs to be fired then fine, fire hundreds of them but only after due process.

RIP the victim, On his daughters birthday apparently.

Wanderer78 · 14-06-2020 7:57am

That country is just tearing itself apart, a civil war wouldn't surprise me

Bullocks · 14-06-2020 7:57am

Did he also steal one of their teasers and try to use it on the cop?
Chief of police has stood down over it aswell I think

suicide_circus · 14-06-2020 8:22am

Wanderer78 wrote: »

That country is just tearing itself apart, a civil war wouldn't surprise me

between who and who?

Mattdhg · 14-06-2020 8:23am

https://youtu.be/DOiKgmCJwls

To be fair, it does look like the police were being reasonable enough until he started to struggle with the arrest. I guess the racism itself might come into play there as we've all been in situations where there was a nod and a wink and you're told to be on your way carefully. They could have handled the arrest a bit smoother all the same, like talking more about it before going to handcuff him.

For anyone who doesn't want to watch the body cam footage, he says he was at his daughters birthday and his girlfriend dropped him back to the parking lot to drive himself home. He says he fell asleep in the car because he wasn't feeling well, and claims to have only drank 1.5 margaritas. He said he could just walk to his sisters house and to forget about the charge etc, but after a breathalyser they go to arrest him...

riffmongous · 14-06-2020 9:13am

Do you think in any other western democracy this situation would have the same outcome?

Ardent · 14-06-2020 9:17am

Can't believe that cop has been immediately fired. It's really sad that a man has lost his life so unnecessarily, but the moment Brooks turns to taze the police it's a cut and dried affair for me.

People forget or don't appreciate the life and death, split-second decision situations these officers are facing every day. In many cases they are dealing with deranged or mentally ill people, every encounter could be their last. Many have died in the line of duty. I am not for one second apologising for police brutality, or the use of excessive force or guns, but simply feel that folks need to consider both sides of the story.

Rodin · 14-06-2020 9:18am

riffmongous wrote: »

Do you think in any other western democracy this situation would have the same outcome?

I'd probably have shot him too.
Should I just wait for him to fire the taser at me, incapacitate me then take the gun?

Cookie_Monster · 14-06-2020 9:24am

riffmongous wrote: »

Do you think in any other western democracy this situation would have the same outcome?

He would probably have been shot here in NZ too if he managed to steal a taser and point it at officers. Of course there would be a proper stand down and investigation here had that occurred, rather than a knee jerk firing.

riffmongous · 14-06-2020 9:25am

Rodin wrote: »

I'd probably have shot him too.
Should I just wait for him to fire the taser at me, incapacitate me then take the gun?

I doubt in most other countries it would get to that point

Even then, why not deescalate? Back off, call in back up, convince him to put it down from a safe distance? I hope to god you never apply to join the Guards if you can't think beyond shoot first

14-06-2020 9:26am

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Cops called because a guy was asleep in his car in the queue for a drive through.
Failed field sobriety test.
Tussled with cops.
Shot and killed.
.......

You left out a very important part between tussled and shot.

Tussled with cops
Took taser off one cop
Got free and ran across parking lot
Turned and shot taser at cop
Shot and killed

The ability of the 2 cops to restrain the man leave a lot to be desired but it’s not a clear cut “shot for no reason” either.

lawrencesummers · 14-06-2020 9:29am

Bullocks wrote: »

Did he also steal one of their teasers and try to use it on the cop?
Chief of police has stood down over it aswell I think

Yea he took the taser apparently.
I was reading on thing where it was said the cops classify a taser as non lethal, so they can’t say he had a lethal weapon to justify the shooting.

I think the lack of due process being given to police will become a big problem, The reports of members of the emergency team standing down over the pushing incident is an example. Cops in the US won’t want be be cops if they are going to be thrown under a bus to appease mobs.

They may well deserve to be fired, but they deserve a process to derive that outcome not a reaction.

lawrencesummers · 14-06-2020 9:30am

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

You left out a very important part between tussled and shot.

Tussled with cops
Took taser off one cop
Got free and ran across parking lot
Turned and shot taser at cop
Shot and killed

The ability of the 2 cops to restrain the man leave a lot to be desired but it’s not a clear cut “shot for no reason” either.

There is a lot more to it than I mentioned, but yea he seemed to get away from them very easily.

lawrencesummers · 14-06-2020 9:32am

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

He would probably have been shot here in NZ too if he managed to steal a taser and point it at officers. Of course there would be a proper stand down and investigation here had that occurred, rather than a knee jerk firing.

Is that justified? Using lethal force against someone who has a non lethal weapon? Is shooting someone who has a baseball bat allowed?

lawrencesummers · 14-06-2020 9:33am

The restaurant where this has happened has been burned down as well.

So all their employees are now out of a job.

CrankyHaus · 14-06-2020 9:35am

I actually know someone who took a taser from police in Australia when they were assaulting someone on the ground. He wasn't shot, although Australian police are armed, and in fact successfully defended himself at trial.

Rows Grower · 14-06-2020 9:35am

Protesters have burned down the Wendy's restaurant where the incident happened and it looks like this is going to escalate into more nationwide protests under the flag of BLM.

Sorry the man has died but the colour of his skin had nothing to do with it.

Gretas Gonna Get Ya! · 14-06-2020 9:37am

How the hell did this escalate into a shooting?

The man was asking if he could leave the car and walk home! He did the right thing, he parked his car up when he realised he was too drunk to drive... the mind boggles!

The only reason I can think why this man resisted arrest, is because most black people in America probably have huge fear of the police (especially in light of recent events). We probably don't even realise what it's like to be handcuffed as a black man by white cops... he possibly thought he would be the next victim of a racist attack! (But perhaps I'm making excuses for him?)

baldshin · 14-06-2020 9:38am

Gretas Gonna Get Ya! wrote: »

How the hell did this escalate into a shooting?

The man was asking if he could leave the car and walk home! He did the right thing, he parked his car up when he realised he was too drunk to drive... the mind boggles!

Because he resisted arrest, stole a taser and shot it at a cop.

You can't just go home if found drunk and asleep in a car. You do that here and get caught, you get arrested.

suicide_circus · 14-06-2020 9:38am

If kids are taught from a young age that cops are going to kill them, is it any wonder they resist arrest, even for a minor charge like DUI.

Rodin · 14-06-2020 9:39am

riffmongous wrote: »

I doubt in most other countries it would get to that point

Even then, why not deescalate? Back off, call in back up, convince him to put it down from a safe distance? I hope to god you never apply to join the Guards if you can't think beyond shoot first

The unarmed police force?
Who I believe wouldn't have a taser to steal ?

Rodin · 14-06-2020 9:40am

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Is that justified? Using lethal force against someone who has a non lethal weapon? Is shooting someone who has a baseball bat allowed?

Yep.
Do you want a crack in the skull from a baseball bat?

frag420 · 14-06-2020 9:40am

Ardent wrote: »

Can't believe that cop has been immediately fired. It's really sad that a man has lost his life so unnecessarily, but the moment Brooks turns to taze the police it's a cut and dried affair for me.

People forget or don't appreciate the life and death, split-second decision situations these officers are facing every day. In many cases they are dealing with deranged or mentally ill people, every encounter could be their last. Many have died in the line of duty. I am not for one second apologising for police brutality, or the use of excessive force or guns, but simply feel that folks need to consider both sides of the story.

Rodin wrote: »

I'd probably have shot him too.
Should I just wait for him to fire the taser at me, incapacitate me then take the gun?

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

You left out a very important part between tussled and shot.

Tussled with cops
Took taser off one cop
Got free and ran across parking lot
Turned and shot taser at cop
Shot and killed

The ability of the 2 cops to restrain the man leave a lot to be desired but it’s not a clear cut “shot for no reason” either.

“You can’t have it both ways in law enforcement,” Stewart (Attorney for the dead mans family) said. “You can’t say a Taser is a non-lethal weapon ... but when an African American grabs it and runs with it, now its some kind of deadly, lethal weapon that calls for you to unload on somebody.”

lawrencesummers · 14-06-2020 9:40am

Rows Grower wrote: »

Protesters have burned down the Wendy's restaurant where the incident happened and it looks like this is going to escalate into more nationwide protests under the flag of BLM.

Sorry the man has died but the colour of his skin had nothing to do with it.

Why do you say that?
Is it an excessive use of force?

riffmongous · 14-06-2020 9:40am

Deja Boo wrote: »

In the states, if you're behind a wheel (even if you're not driving) and it's proven you are impaired, you are a DUI violation - you can't simply choose to walk home to avoid arrest.

Maybe they need to put down the Judge Dredd comics then

riffmongous · 14-06-2020 9:41am

Rodin wrote: »

The unarmed police force?
Who I believe wouldn't have a taser to steal ?

It's the mindset that's the problem

lawrencesummers · 14-06-2020 9:41am

Rodin wrote: »

Yep.
Do you want a crack in the skull from a baseball bat?

Is a clenched fist a justifiable reason to shoot someone?

Rodin · 14-06-2020 9:42am

In no way should this case be lumped in with the George Floyd one.

Im sure if the victim here was white he'd similarly have been shot.

Rodin · 14-06-2020 9:43am

riffmongous wrote: »

It's the mindset that's the problem

The mindset that Im just going to stand there and let a guy tase me?

Rodin · 14-06-2020 9:43am

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Is a clenched fist a justifiable reason to shoot someone?

If that's all there is and I haven't been punched then no.
But a taser is a completely different animal as is a baseball bat

riffmongous · 14-06-2020 9:45am

Rodin wrote: »

The mindset that Im just going to stand there and let a guy tase me?

The mindset that this is the only way you can view the situation, that you can't even seem to acknowledge that it should have never get to that point in the first place

Pkiernan · 14-06-2020 9:46am

Dangerously stupid to drive drunk, fight the cops and then grab a weapon off them.

And before the left ultras say a taser is not a weapon, civilians are prohibited from owning them all across Europe.

This is not the same as poor George Floyd who was a victim of murder.

blackbox · 14-06-2020 9:47am

Rodin wrote: »

The mindset that Im just going to stand there and let a guy tase me?

Maybe if you didn't have a gun you'd have found an alternative course of action and you'd both be alive.

Figel Narage · 14-06-2020 9:48am

suicide_circus wrote: »

If kids are taught from a young age that cops are going to kill them, is it any wonder they resist arrest, even for a minor charge like DUI.

I'm going out on a limb here but the majority of times these guys resist so much is because they have previous records and assume that getting arrested again will bring about a heavy sentence if convicted of something. I think the police officers could have handled this a lot better but I don't think anyone has experienced a taser first hand (Could be wrong). Even at a less powerful level, it incapacitates you and I can't imagine what the more powerful ones the police use is like. If the police officer allowed himself to get tased, the guy could have taken his gun or done whatever else

lawrencesummers · 14-06-2020 9:48am

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Rodin wrote: »

If that's all there is and I haven't been punched then no.
But a taser is a completely different animal as is a baseball bat

You don’t see the contradictions in what your saying unfortunately.

A punch can kill you as quick as a baseball bat, and a baseball bat can do a lot more damage than a taser, especially to a Cop because in the US they wear Bulletproof vests so a taser won’t reach the skin like when it’s used against a civilian.

The simple fact here is fists, bats, tasers are non lethal weapons and they don’t justify the use of lethal violence except in Rare cases, and a suspect running in the other direction isn’t one of them.

lawrencesummers · 14-06-2020 9:50am

Pkiernan wrote: »

Dangerously stupid to drive drunk, fight the cops and then grab a weapon off them.

And before the left ultras say a taser is not a weapon, civilians are prohibited from owning them all across Europe.

This is not the same as poor George Floyd who was a victim of murder.

Apparently he wasn’t driving, he was asleep in the parking lot.
Nobody says a taser isn’t a weapon, but the cops say it’s a non lethal weapon.

Mattdhg · 14-06-2020 9:50am

lawrencesummers wrote: »

The restaurant where this has happened has been burned down as well.

So all their employees are now out of a job.

Saw it, absolutely ridiculous.

Loads of cars in the parking lot burnt out too.

None of that is helping the movement, especially since this is not as clear cut an injustice as some of the other deaths.

lawrencesummers · 14-06-2020 9:50am

Figel Narage wrote: »

I'm going out on a limb here but the majority of times these guys resist so much is because they have previous records and assume that getting arrested again will bring about a heavy sentence if convicted of something. I think the police officers could have handled this a lot better but I don't think anyone has experienced a taser first hand (Could be wrong). Even at a less powerful level, it incapacitates you and I can't imagine what the more powerful ones the police use is like. If the police officer allowed himself to get tased, the guy could have taken his gun or done whatever else

So do you think the shooting is justified ?

lawrencesummers · 14-06-2020 9:53am

Mattdhg wrote: »

Saw it, absolutely ridiculous.

Loads of cars in the parking lot burnt out too.

None of that is helping the movement, especially since this is not as clear cut an injustice as some of the other deaths.

It’s unnecessary, but it shows the level of anger that exists and it looks like property damage will be the order of the day for sometime when things like this happen.

I can’t help but think about the person who said calling the cops on a Black person in the US should be treated as attempted murder. That could be where the anger towards the restaurant is coming from.

frag420 · 14-06-2020 9:54am

Was the taser he took not the one that was used on him?

If yes it was rendered obsolete by the cop so the dead ma would have had an absolute non fatal weapon in his hands unless he knew how to reload it?

Thats assuming its the type that fires little wired up pins that send the shock. Of course the other option would be it was the type that you need to be standing beside someone to shock them in which case he was many meters ahead of the police when they shot him with a non lethal weapon that was made even more non lethal through distance...

I guess we shall have to wait and see

Gretas Gonna Get Ya! · 14-06-2020 9:56am

lawrencesummers wrote: »

So do you think the shooting is justified ?

The police officers voices sounded very panicked... I think it was an excessive use of force. But mostly they just handled a co-operative drunk man very poorly. They should be aware that most black guys will be very nervous about being arrested in light of recent events....

More calm officers would have handled this much better imo. They were on edge and trigger happy... (3 shots for a guy with a taser? Why not one in the leg to incapacitate him if you're going to use your gun at all?)

Rows Grower · 14-06-2020 9:56am

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Apparently he wasn’t driving, he was asleep in the parking lot.
Nobody says a taser isn’t a weapon, but the cops say it’s a non lethal weapon.

If he uses the taser on the cop then he can take the cops gun.

Figel Narage · 14-06-2020 9:58am

lawrencesummers wrote: »

So do you think the shooting is justified ?

I don't know, if I was in a similar situation and a guy had a taser pointed at me I'm not gong to let him use it. These things always escalate out of control in America. On the surface reading it, the guy was shot for sleeping in his car, when looking at the video, he was shot for stealing a taser and potentially using it on the police, it should never have escalated to this point but it did and actions had to be taken

frag420 · 14-06-2020 10:02am

frag420 wrote: »

Was the taser he took not the one that was used on him?

If yes it was rendered obsolete by the cop so the dead ma would have had an absolute non fatal weapon in his hands unless he knew how to reload it?

Thats assuming its the type that fires little wired up pins that send the shock. Of course the other option would be it was the type that you need to be standing beside someone to shock them in which case he was many meters ahead of the police when they shot him with a non lethal weapon that was made even more non lethal through distance...

I guess we shall have to wait and see

Just looked online...

Can the taser cartridges be reused? Once a taser is fired, the cartridge can not be reused and must be replaced after every use. If the taser cartridge has not been used, it must be replaced every 5 years due to the limitations of the lithium ion batteries used in tasers.

Noe we wait confirmation on this but if in fact he took the taser that was used on him then the cop would have known that it could not be used again unless the victim had a stash of cartridges in his pants which I doubt.

Mattdhg · 14-06-2020 10:04am

This is the CCTV from the Wendy's where it all happened https://youtu.be/2Z1HCJpo4N4

To me, it looks like Rayshard was being chased by Officer A and turns around and successfully tases him because the officer slams into the car. Officer B is getting up from where they had the initial struggle with him, sees Rayshard with the taser out and shoots him while running over.

Thats just my impression of the video... If its right then you would have a lot more sympathy for the police involved

baldshin · 14-06-2020 10:05am

It's really easy to break this down play by play in hindsight. But what happened, happened very quickly. The brain only sees a taser being pointed at you while adrenaline is high, it doesn't really quickly tell you that the taser has already been used. In fact, even if you quickly process already having used a taser, where is your partner's taser? Do you know? Is it holstered, or is it in this guy's hand?

Cookie_Monster · 14-06-2020 10:05am

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Is that justified? Using lethal force against someone who has a non lethal weapon? Is shooting someone who has a baseball bat allowed?

Yeah, if he had a bat tazing him would prob be proportionate, rather than shooting but all depends on the context of the situation.

riffmongous · 14-06-2020 10:06am

Figel Narage wrote: »

I don't know, if I was in a similar situation and a guy had a taser pointed at me I'm not gong to let him use it. These things always escalate out of control in America. On the surface reading it, the guy was shot for sleeping in his car, when looking at the video, he was shot for stealing a taser and potentially using it on the police, it should never have escalated to this point but it did and actions had to be taken

What if you didn't have a gun, what would you do then? Step back out of range and verbally try to get him to not use it I'd guess

Ardent · 14-06-2020 10:09am

frag420 wrote: »

Noe we wait confirmation on this but if in fact he took the taser that was used on him then the cop would have known that it could not be used again unless the victim had a stash of cartridges in his pants which I doubt.

What if the victim instead had a concealed weapon in his pants? In the heat of the moment, with a weapon pointed at you, there isn't time to reflect.

joe40 · 14-06-2020 10:11am

riffmongous wrote: »

Do you think in any other western democracy this situation would have the same outcome?

I think this is the point that is lost. America is the dominant country in the western world but the way they handle their domestic affairs is a shambles.
From health to education to social welfare it is all fcuked up.

That man should not be dead. If the police life is not at risk then he should not be shot. Running away should not be a death sentence.

frag420 · 14-06-2020 10:15am

Ardent wrote: »

What if the victim instead had a concealed weapon in his pants? In the heat of the moment, with a weapon pointed at you, there isn't time to reflect.

Then why would he need to steal a taser?

Police Shooting USA. Rayshard Brooks.

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