EV vs PHEV - we spend 99% of our time in and around Dublin

liamog · 26-05-2020 7:18pm

Laviski wrote: »

for the 1% of journeys, can always rent an ICE when you have long drives and under time pressures that you don't want to stop or be worried about fast charge availability

That was a great suggestion 18 months ago, but there is so much choice now that doesn't have the Leaf battery issue. In fact, if Dublin to Cork was on my list of trips, I'd certainly avoid the Leaf for it's other issue, it's inability to use the Ionity chargers. They may be expensive but at least they are likely to be available.

Laviski · 26-05-2020 7:30pm

I couldn't justify the extra few k for the Ionic. Leaf maybe imperfect in your eyes, but it is perfect for my current and foreseeable future needs with potentially the same for OP.

yes if i could afford it would be get a M3 hands down. Ionic is a great car but too which would satisfy my need 100% but paying a few k less a leaf satisfying me 99% will do just nicely.

liamog · 26-05-2020 7:45pm

Right now I wouldn't recommend a new Ioniq either, never mind rapidgate, they screwed up the normal battery charging with it's low voltage.
For somebody with OPs needs, I think the Zoe 50 with CCS is probably the best car, followed by the e208 or Corsa E, Hyundai need to bring the Kona down below 30k to remain competitve, and the same for Kia with the Soul.

Sheep Shagger · 26-05-2020 8:04pm

fricatus wrote: »

Not exactly. The battery gets hot, so depending on the temperature, the Battery Management System (BMS) "throttles" or slows down the rate at which the charge can be delivered in, so as to protect the battery.

Normally if you drive the car down to 15-20%, the temperature doesn't get up to those levels straight away, so if you've to stop once, you can normally get OK speeds, like 40 kW or so, which means probably a 30-40 minute stop.

However that fast charge, plus subsequent driving is usually enough to make the battery hot enough that the next fast charge might be quite slow, maybe 15-20 kW. You'd probably be OK going from Dublin to Cork or Galway on that basis, especially if you can do a slow (destination) charge while you're there, because you'll probably only stop once on the way.

The downside is that the battery is really slow to cool down, so there's still some residual heat there the next day. That could mean that if you went straight home, your first fast charge might be quite slow.

If you can live with that restriction, by all accounts it's a really good car.

There are plenty of videos about this if you want to know more. Just search for "rapidgate" on YouTube. I would recommend any by Bjørn Nyland, as he's really thorough.

Thanks, that's very helpful, will check out those YouTube clips tonight.

For our use, for the budget and for the space the leaf is still coming out as our best option I think.

On the battery, for the 2-3 times we leave the province (Leinster) per year we will be driving somewhere to stay overnight so don't think we'll ever be having to try and fast charge twice in a day. We'll have time to do a DC charge too.

Lantus · 26-05-2020 8:09pm

Sheep Shagger wrote: »

Yeah don't think it will really affect is.

Is it a case that after a long distance drive the battery is too hot to charge straight away (and it will take time to cool down). The handful of times we go to Cork or Gakway we wouldn't be in a rush to fast charge straight away anyway.

Question answered then. 40kw leaf is a great car all round bar the battery gate issue which won't affect you.

Sheep Shagger · 26-05-2020 8:30pm

liamog wrote: »

Right now I wouldn't recommend a new Ioniq either, never mind rapidgate, they screwed up the normal battery charging with it's low voltage.
For somebody with OPs needs, I think the Zoe 50 with CCS is probably the best car, followed by the e208 or Corsa E, Hyundai need to bring the Kona down below 30k to remain competitve, and the same for Kia with the Soul.

We really liked the Zoe with CCS but it's just a bit on the small side. Going to look at a leaf again tomorrow (and the e208 but that looks small too).

liamog · 26-05-2020 8:40pm

If the size clinches it then the extra space in the Leaf puts it in it's own bracket at the moment. There is the base ID.3 coming from VW but that's probably at least 6 months from general availabily.

kanuseeme · 26-05-2020 9:56pm

OP your going to spend 30 k on a car, make sure its fit for purpose, no point settling for something thats a tight squeeze, requires a 1 hour stop or a trip to a car rental, if a full EV does not suit you in that price bracket, consider waiting another little while for more choices or going for a plug in hybrid,

Lots of options available for you and best of luck.

Lantus · 27-05-2020 1:23am

Just to put things in perspective you can get a 1 or 2 year old sport line petrol automatic superb for 30k. Incredible car for money and all the space for kids you will ever need and trips wherever.

If not that then look at another but at least go sit in one and do an honest comparison. Car market is topping to consumer for good deals. At your money worlds your oyster.

Sheep Shagger · 30-05-2020 1:25pm

Test drived a e-208 this morning and again suprised by the cabin size, think it might marginally be bigger than the leaf. Battery size is a 50kw too.

So after looking and test driving a Zoe, leaf, egolf, and a e-208.

Heard the corsa when it comes out will be a little smaller in the back seat than a leaf.

Also heard the egolf is being discontinued (replaced with the I late this year). Was nice but the fact the model is being discontinued puts me off a bit.

So now to crunch the numbers but thi k it comes down to the leaf vs the e208.

unkel · 30-05-2020 2:51pm

Between those two, the Peugeot has a far bigger range and can charge at up to 100kW (vs 43kW max in the Leaf - if you are lucky) and can charge at the high speed Ionity chargers that are popping up all over the country (with 4-6 stalls each, so no waiting time as opposed to the single stall old crappy ESB public chargers which you will depend on in the Leaf)

If you rarely / never need to drive beyond the range of your car, above is not so important of course, but I would worry about the fast charging system of the Leaf when it comes to reselling time as this system has been obsolete for years now

KCross · 30-05-2020 3:07pm

Sheep Shagger wrote: »

Test drived a e-208 this morning and again suprised by the cabin size, think it might marginally be bigger than the leaf.

In the back? Really?

It didn’t look that way to me. Looks quite cramped in the back in an e208.

Sheep Shagger · 30-05-2020 3:26pm

KCross wrote: »

In the back? Really?

It didn’t look that way to me. Looks quite cramped in the back in an e208.

When I say bigger I should have said it's very very small (the extra bit I think). Going to crunch the numbers tonight and head back to look at the leaf again for a final comparison.

Sheep Shagger · 02-06-2020 3:27pm

Sheep Shagger wrote: »

When I say bigger I should have said it's very very small (the extra bit I think). Going to crunch the numbers tonight and head back to look at the leaf again for a final comparison.

You were right, the leaf is the bigger of the two in the back seat.

So we're down to the final two and we looked again at both today within an hour of each other.

Leaf

2nd generation
Little bit bigger in the back
Driving position is a bit higher off the ground

E208

Looks a little more modern (Alure model)
Bigger battery/range
Newer fast charge technology (wint affect us much but still and for resale purposes)
USB sockets in front and back (not a major) but annoying leaf only has 1 in the front.
1% less APR for the portion of the price we are paying via HP (leaf is about €20pm more for 48 months).

I was leaning towards the e208 but wife has moved away from that towards the leaf.

Need to crunch numbers again but on the price alone they are much the same when you consider the trade in value they are giving us and a few extras.

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh !

Black_Knight · 02-06-2020 3:46pm

If they're that close, and it's a coin flip, i'd be hoping the coin lands on the side of the E208... or more precisely, not the side of the leaf. Purely because the battery/charging tech in the leaf isn't progressive. ie. no active cooling, old charger head.

ELM327 · 02-06-2020 4:25pm

Agree
The CCS is alone enough of a reason to pick the e208
I watched a few of Bjorns reviews and its a nice car. Peaks at 100kW but settles at 95-75kW for the majority of the charge.

Laviski · 02-06-2020 5:22pm

leaf has 2 usb chargers in the back as well.

as a recent owner and getting to grips with EV ownership having CCS or Chademo makes no odds and it won't either unless doing long trip dublin/galway etc, all my charging so far is on type 2. The E208 has the same 7 kW on-board charger for Type 2. I charge at work and the public charge points from ESB or shopping center provided points and not spent one kw from home yet. debating even should even bother installing a home charger, most i talk with use granny cable if the need is there. If i were to install would also need to change the meter as well. Again i charge from work free and ESB is still free so don't feel inclined, plus with electricity usage higher these days during the day so there isn't a benefit either to change meter. The dealer charge point (also everywhere nationally) is also free but not going to go out my way.

A lot of leaf haters here boil it down to not having CCS or active thermal management, but bottom line the leaf is a city car, not for long range commutes imo. So really ask yourself are you really going to be doing long regular trips, if you are then you the CCS/Chademo +plus the battery cooling is a concern you should really consider. Also consider the re sale value, for me that won't be a problem cause if anything will get a second car rather than get rid.

my main gripe with the new leaf is getting the app setup, wasn't a straight forward process. If you ask me this is where the leaf doesn't do well in. Space in the back and the decision the boss makes generally goes (wife).

with that said this thread has all the details you should need, do look at videos and other reviews to make the informed decision of what you choose.

Do consider the possibly of not making the jump for EV yet, there is a possibility dealers will slash prices to bring up demand or some other incentives later. Also considering not going for EV at all at this time and go ICE or plug in hybrid, wait till the norm reaches 80kw/100km for affordable ev and perhaps when the onboard charger is 22kw as standard etc. Or even when nissan decide to put in active thermal cooling into leafs

:pac:
i doubt they will ditch the chademo standard but nobody knows.

liamog · 02-06-2020 5:58pm

Laviski wrote: »

A lot of leaf haters here boil it down to not having CCS or active thermal management, but bottom line the leaf is a city car, not for long range commutes imo.

I don't understand why you would be willing to shoot yourself in the foot, it's a sacrifice you just don't need to make now that other options are available and at the same price range. The only positive the Leaf has over other cars in it's price bracket is the extra size.

The e2008 is coming very soon which is a similar size, though I've not heard any Irish pricing yet. If they can bring it in starting at €30,000 then the only time I will recommend a Leaf will be where someone has invested in a CHAdeMO V2G system.

I drive an e-Up! and am upgrading to an electric Mini, I have no skin in this game, but the Nissan apologists are start to descend into fanboyism.

Laviski · 02-06-2020 6:35pm

liamog wrote: »

I drive an e-Up! and am upgrading to an electric Mini, I have no skin in this game, but the Nissan apologists are start to descend into fanboyism.

and i don't understand how people reiterate the same post of the same thing over and over again without bringing new material or keeping within scope of OP. I bought my leaf this year with full knowledge of the Chademo/CSS and no active cooling. It isn't a concern for the use i need the car to perform. I don't regret my purchase, it was earlier than i anticipated as result of some external factors making the push.

but go on keep banging that drum, don't see how it is constructive for the OP as such stuff should be discussed in the nissan leaf thread.

There is more to a car than its fast charging abilities. I think what i've said is quite clear,
short/medium regular journeys leaf should be in consideration regardless of the fast charging issues. In case you forgot this is the scope of use which the OP stated. As a new leaf owner was providing some insight.
long regular journeys, leaf's should not be anywhere near consideration imo.

also i am not a Nissan fanboy
in the Telsa fanclub, if money could stretch or decent M3 second hand i would be there in a heartbeat. so maybe in a few years will re visit to buy another car

kanuseeme · 02-06-2020 7:11pm

Every electric car is a sacrifice of some sort, range, cost, charging speed. it boils down to what you can live with.

I see nothing wrong with the Nissan leaf as long as you are aware of its limitations, but it's the best selling EV here for years and its a brand every one knows.

As for CSS or Chademo debate if you need 20 kWh to get home its 13 minutes @ 90 kW or 26 minutes @ 45 kW hardly a deal breaker and the only place you can get the faster speed is @ ionity with 4 locations and 2 being built, and from reading the ionity thread, as far as I am concerned nothing great about their service.

I thought Laviski offered some great advice and I think its well worth the risk of loosing 1000 euro value on your trade in than buying a car that your stuck with for a few years.

Sheep Shagger · 02-06-2020 7:47pm

Thanks lads, your opinions really are appreciated.

Dumb question and one I cant find the answer to online and forgot to ask the dealers. Are the home power boxes compatible with all brands of cars.

I know different brands have different plug types but that's the end going into the car. If we were to install a power box at home for a Peoguet does that mean visitors couldn't use it of that were driving say a leaf or kona (and of we changed brands down the road we may have to get a different charging box).

liamog · 02-06-2020 7:59pm

Home chargers now are pretty much all type 2, make sure you get a 7.2kW 32A, for the best charging speeds at home.
All new car's come with a type 2 port. Older Nissan Leaf's and some other model have a type 1 port.

Your main choice is tethered (cable built in) vs untethered (socket and use cable that came with car)
Tethered is probably the best option as it makes it slightly easier when charging at home, but you need a secure enough location to charge.
If you do have visitors with older Leaf's they can either use an adapter, or if you have an untethered charger they can use a type 2 to type 1 cable, which they probably have already to use public slow chargers.

championc · 02-06-2020 8:05pm

If you have any thoughts on installing solar panels in the future, get a Zappi charger, which will charge the car with excess solar energy

Sheep Shagger · 02-06-2020 9:25pm

championc wrote: »

If you have any thoughts on installing solar panels in the future, get a Zappi charger, which will charge the car with excess solar energy

Handy, we actually have solar panels on the roof of the house.

useless · 02-06-2020 9:55pm

Am I right in saying that you’re shortly going to have two kids, so you’ll need two car seats and you want the ability to carry another adult in the back occasionally?

If so, I think you would be mad to consider a 208, e or otherwise. There simply won’t be enough room for double buggy plus shopping plus all the baby paraphernalia. An adult simply won’t fit in the back with the two car seats. You mentioned a 4 year HP deal- in 4 years you’ll most likely have one child in school and may be into the school run/playdate scenario where you’ll need to carry a third booster seat - you’ll struggle to fit it.

Forget how the car is powered for the moment. Think of your other requirements first, then see if there’s something electric that works for you.

You’ll need something the size of the Ioniq or larger. How much longer can you wait? Reason I ask is that the VW ID3 might be an option. Afaik they should be here by year end but who knows with Covid. Even then it’s Golf sized so still small enough but you’d manage.

For comparison, when I was in your position almost 10 years ago I bought a nearly new SMax. Still have it and it’s been a fantastic car for the purpose we bought it. Still is.

Sheep Shagger · 02-06-2020 10:17pm

useless wrote: »

Am I right in saying that you’re shortly going to have two kids, so you’ll need two car seats and you want the ability to carry another adult in the back occasionally?

If so, I think you would be mad to consider a 208, e or otherwise. There simply won’t be enough room for double buggy plus shopping plus all the baby paraphernalia. An adult simply won’t fit in the back with the two car seats. You mentioned a 4 year HP deal- in 4 years you’ll most likely have one child in school and may be into the school run/playdate scenario where you’ll need to carry a third booster seat - you’ll struggle to fit it.

Forget how the car is powered for the moment. Think of your other requirements first, then see if there’s something electric that works for you.

You’ll need something the size of the Ioniq or larger. How much longer can you wait? Reason I ask is that the VW ID3 might be an option. Afaik they should be here by year end but who knows with Covid. Even then it’s Golf sized so still small enough but you’d manage.

For comparison, when I was in your position almost 10 years ago I bought a nearly new SMax. Still have it and it’s been a fantastic car for the purpose we bought it. Still is.

Kids are thankfully past buggys (no more kids either!). Agree 100% the boot wouldn't be anywhere near big enough.

The adult in the back would be few and far between and only for very very short trips (a grandparent to the zoo maybe or maybe a playdate with a booster seat, again very few and far between times) and never for any major distance.

Looked at the Ioniq but didn't like it and the new VW looks like it will be out of our price range and it size canin may not be that much more. Not interested in another ICE car and we've ruled out self charging hybrids and hybrids.

Getting closer to the e208 I think, will think about it over the next day or so before pulling the trigger.

championc · 02-06-2020 10:38pm

In my opinion, Hybrids are a fudge. Either go Full EV or don't bother. You'll be blue in the face plugging in a Hybrid at ever hands turn. Most decent EV's will get you all the way to most locations in Ireland. A one hour stop at a fast charger and you should have enough to then get you home.

unkel · 02-06-2020 10:47pm

Like the OP, I spend 99% of my time in and around Dublin. I bought an EV with a very small 28kWh battery as our only family car in January 2017. And it's been fine. On the rare occasions I traveled beyond the range of the car, I used the public fast charging network.

Lantus · 03-06-2020 12:20pm

If it were me I'd go with the leaf. Bigger car and better value than the e208 which is huge money for what you get.

A 19 leaf is 27 to 28k so good value.

The nuances of battery and charging or range will never affect you or be an issue so I wouldn't even weigh it up.

Test drove the leaf and its well nice.

Remember it's just a car and can be sold and changed as needs change over time so don't over think it!

unkel · 03-06-2020 12:26pm

Lantus wrote: »

A 19 leaf is 27 to 28k so good value.

That's poor value in my book. A better specced car with a similar range like a 19 Ioniq can be had for €23k, there's one for sale from a forum regular, in excellent condition.

Laviski · 03-06-2020 12:33pm

i bought new for that price..

Sheep Shagger · 03-06-2020 12:34pm

Laviski wrote: »

i bought new for that price..

Yep not buying a 19 when it's the same/very close for a 202.

KCross · 03-06-2020 3:14pm

championc wrote: »

In my opinion, Hybrids are a fudge. Either go Full EV or don't bother. You'll be blue in the face plugging in a Hybrid at ever hands turn.

Why is that?
You plug it in once a day the same as you would a BEV.

championc wrote: »

Most decent EV's will get you all the way to most locations in Ireland. A one hour stop at a fast charger and you should have enough to then get you home.

:eek:

No thanks. And I think you'll find most of the general public wont be up for that either.

Lumen · 03-06-2020 3:21pm

KCross wrote: »

No thanks. And I think you'll find most of the general public wont be up for that either.

The problem is that whilst there are many, many places in Ireland that I'd like to spend an hour, none of them are motorway service stations.

KCross · 03-06-2020 3:51pm

Lumen wrote: »

The problem is that whilst there are many, many places in Ireland that I'd like to spend an hour, none of them are motorway service stations.

Indeed. Soleless places where you just want to get in and out as quickly as you can.

Having to stay longer because of the car you drive is a no no for me.

My own goal for my next EV is to be able to drive Cork-Dublin (@ 120km/h) with no more than a 15-20min stop, which is close to how long it would take to get in/out of the shop and toilet anyway.

I think thats do-able with the new wave of EV's... e208 and ID.3 (with optional 100kW charging) should be able to do it.

unkel · 03-06-2020 4:07pm

KCross wrote: »

My own goal for my next EV is to be able to drive Cork-Dublin (@ 120km/h) with no more than a 15-20min stop

You're finally getting a 2016 Ioniq?

championc · 03-06-2020 7:20pm

KCross wrote: »

Indeed. Soleless places where you just want to get in and out as quickly as you can.

Having to stay longer because of the car you drive is a no no for me.

My own goal for my next EV is to be able to drive Cork-Dublin (@ 120km/h) with no more than a 15-20min stop, which is close to how long it would take to get in/out of the shop and toilet anyway.

I think thats do-able with the new wave of EV's... e208 and ID.3 (with optional 100kW charging) should be able to do it.

I've an e-Niro, so I can almost get to Cork and back, and when I'm commuting after this lockdown, my 60km daily round trip will require charging once per week.

So a splash and dash on a return leg is very possible, but the likelihood is that I'd get it charged at a public AC charge point overnight.

Black_Knight · 03-06-2020 10:15pm

unkel wrote: »

You're finally getting a 2016 Ioniq?

2 stops at 120km/hr in an Ioniq 28 Cork-Dublin, unless you're brave/stupid.

Kramer · 03-06-2020 11:17pm

Black_Knight wrote: »

2 stops at 120km/hr in an Ioniq 28 Cork-Dublin, unless you're brave/stupid.

Why would you need to stop twice? Isn't it approx. 260km?
Surely, setting out with a fully charged Ioniq, just one 15 minute stop would suffice?

You should check your Ioniq's tyre pressures - you must have terrible efficiency

.

KCross · 03-06-2020 11:45pm

unkel wrote: »

You're finally getting a 2016 Ioniq?

Its close but not quite there. You need a bit more in reserve than the Ioniq would give you.

My use case is when Im travelling to matches, concerts etc. Quite often (5-10 times a year) I'd do a journey like that in the one day and I'd need to arrive at the destination with enough to get back to the rapid charge on the way home.

The Ioniq wouldnt do it without a compromise somewhere in speed or charging time.

unkel · 04-06-2020 12:53am

I was only messin'

If I did a return day trip from Cork to Dublin (with zero chance of destination charging in Dublin) nearly once a month, I'd want a long range EV. One that would only need one stop for the whole return trip. Someone just bought a 2019 Kona 64kWh for €30k privately. That would be a prime candidate if the size is not an issue (as in max 2 kids)

Lantus · 04-06-2020 8:40am

Sheep Shagger wrote: »

Yep not buying a 19 when it's the same/very close for a 202.

Compared to 208 it's better value. Prices were just a quick check on line.

Stock levels are low as factories have been shut. There are already car shortages in the US where popular makes are close to running out until manufacturing ramps up again. I wouldn't necessarily expect to get a great deal when demand is increasing as supply is at an all time low.

ELM327 · 04-06-2020 9:05am

unkel wrote: »

I was only messin'

If I did a return day trip from Cork to Dublin (with zero chance of destination charging in Dublin) nearly once a month, I'd want a long range EV. One that would only need one stop for the whole return trip. Someone just bought a 2019 Kona 64kWh for €30k privately. That would be a prime candidate if the size is not an issue (as in max 2 kids)

..with no legs

KCross · 04-06-2020 2:44pm

unkel wrote: »

If I did a return day trip from Cork to Dublin (with zero chance of destination charging in Dublin) nearly once a month, I'd want a long range EV.

I would too but I'm not paying €40k-€50k for it!

unkel wrote: »

One that would only need one stop for the whole return trip.

I'm willing to have one short stop each way because I would normally do that anyway, so I dont see it as a compromise as long as the stop doesnt have to be 40-60mins. 15-20mins is acceptable to me. YMMV.

unkel wrote: »

Someone just bought a 2019 Kona 64kWh for €30k privately. That would be a prime candidate if the size is not an issue (as in max 2 kids)

Kona would be out as we are a family of 5, but eNiro would do fine. I like the Niro but not paying €40k for it.

Black_Knight · 04-06-2020 4:06pm

Kramer wrote: »

Why would you need to stop twice? Isn't it approx. 260km?
Surely, setting out with a fully charged Ioniq, just one 15 minute stop would suffice?

You should check your Ioniq's tyre pressures - you must have terrible efficiency .

To be fair, I did this trip in November, 120 all the way, and it started raining about half way. Also my first time driving that road in an EV so I was cautious. Also, I wasn't destination charging, it was an IKEA run.

ELM327 · 04-06-2020 4:13pm

Black_Knight wrote: »

2 stops at 120km/hr in an Ioniq 28 Cork-Dublin, unless you're brave/stupid.

No, no it's not.

In the EV rally in 2018 I did 120km/h GPS speed from Dublin to cork with one stop at cashel. Reached the cork fast charger with ~40% remaining.
There was no Ionity then either. You could do it with one ~25 min stop now.

unkel · 04-06-2020 5:22pm

Might be harder doing the trip from Cork, because of less suitable charging locations?

Black_Knight · 04-06-2020 10:15pm

unkel wrote: »

Might be harder doing the trip from Cork, because of less suitable charging locations?

To be fair, I stopped in cashel because 1. I didn't know/wasn't familiar with the charge points beyond that 2. it has redundancy with ESB. Urlingford would be my ideal stop, but... point 1 above, and I wasn't confident of making it to ballacolla in the event urlingford was not working. Certainly not with rain.

Kramer · 04-06-2020 11:41pm

I reckon it's doable without stopping at all in the Ioniq - well, my GOM says so anyway.

Probably not at 120 though, maybe Leafspeed?

unkel · 05-06-2020 9:13am

Yeah, I was interested in this when I first got the car and so were many other owners in other countries too, on one site the admin compiled a list of reported mileages done by the owners and it showed that in good circumstances, Ioniq can do 250km at 90km/h. LeafSpeed is a bit below that

EV vs PHEV - we spend 99% of our time in and around Dublin

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