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EV vs PHEV - we spend 99% of our time in and around Dublin

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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 60,559 CMod ✭✭✭✭ unkel


    Between those two, the Peugeot has a far bigger range and can charge at up to 100kW (vs 43kW max in the Leaf - if you are lucky) and can charge at the high speed Ionity chargers that are popping up all over the country (with 4-6 stalls each, so no waiting time as opposed to the single stall old crappy ESB public chargers which you will depend on in the Leaf)

    If you rarely / never need to drive beyond the range of your car, above is not so important of course, but I would worry about the fast charging system of the Leaf when it comes to reselling time as this system has been obsolete for years now

    11PM: 15kW o'clock!



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,491 ✭✭✭✭ KCross


    Test drived a e-208 this morning and again suprised by the cabin size, think it might marginally be bigger than the leaf.

    In the back? Really?

    It didn’t look that way to me. Looks quite cramped in the back in an e208.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 5,201 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Sheep Shagger


    KCross wrote: »
    In the back? Really?

    It didn’t look that way to me. Looks quite cramped in the back in an e208.

    When I say bigger I should have said it's very very small (the extra bit I think). Going to crunch the numbers tonight and head back to look at the leaf again for a final comparison.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 5,201 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Sheep Shagger


    When I say bigger I should have said it's very very small (the extra bit I think). Going to crunch the numbers tonight and head back to look at the leaf again for a final comparison.

    You were right, the leaf is the bigger of the two in the back seat.

    So we're down to the final two and we looked again at both today within an hour of each other.

    Leaf

    2nd generation
    Little bit bigger in the back
    Driving position is a bit higher off the ground

    E208

    Looks a little more modern (Alure model)
    Bigger battery/range
    Newer fast charge technology (wint affect us much but still and for resale purposes)
    USB sockets in front and back (not a major) but annoying leaf only has 1 in the front.
    1% less APR for the portion of the price we are paying via HP (leaf is about €20pm more for 48 months).

    I was leaning towards the e208 but wife has moved away from that towards the leaf.

    Need to crunch numbers again but on the price alone they are much the same when you consider the trade in value they are giving us and a few extras.

    Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh !


  • Moderators Posts: 12,132 ✭✭✭✭ Black_Knight


    If they're that close, and it's a coin flip, i'd be hoping the coin lands on the side of the E208... or more precisely, not the side of the leaf. Purely because the battery/charging tech in the leaf isn't progressive. ie. no active cooling, old charger head.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 19,068 ✭✭✭✭ ELM327


    Agree
    The CCS is alone enough of a reason to pick the e208
    I watched a few of Bjorns reviews and its a nice car. Peaks at 100kW but settles at 95-75kW for the majority of the charge.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,487 ✭✭✭ Laviski


    leaf has 2 usb chargers in the back as well.

    as a recent owner and getting to grips with EV ownership having CCS or Chademo makes no odds and it won't either unless doing long trip dublin/galway etc, all my charging so far is on type 2. The E208 has the same 7 kW on-board charger for Type 2. I charge at work and the public charge points from ESB or shopping center provided points and not spent one kw from home yet. debating even should even bother installing a home charger, most i talk with use granny cable if the need is there. If i were to install would also need to change the meter as well. Again i charge from work free and ESB is still free so don't feel inclined, plus with electricity usage higher these days during the day so there isn't a benefit either to change meter. The dealer charge point (also everywhere nationally) is also free but not going to go out my way.

    A lot of leaf haters here boil it down to not having CCS or active thermal management, but bottom line the leaf is a city car, not for long range commutes imo. So really ask yourself are you really going to be doing long regular trips, if you are then you the CCS/Chademo +plus the battery cooling is a concern you should really consider. Also consider the re sale value, for me that won't be a problem cause if anything will get a second car rather than get rid.

    my main gripe with the new leaf is getting the app setup, wasn't a straight forward process. If you ask me this is where the leaf doesn't do well in. Space in the back and the decision the boss makes generally goes (wife).

    with that said this thread has all the details you should need, do look at videos and other reviews to make the informed decision of what you choose.

    Do consider the possibly of not making the jump for EV yet, there is a possibility dealers will slash prices to bring up demand or some other incentives later. Also considering not going for EV at all at this time and go ICE or plug in hybrid, wait till the norm reaches 80kw/100km for affordable ev and perhaps when the onboard charger is 22kw as standard etc. Or even when nissan decide to put in active thermal cooling into leafs :D :pac:
    i doubt they will ditch the chademo standard but nobody knows.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 6,429 Mod ✭✭✭✭ liamog


    Laviski wrote: »
    A lot of leaf haters here boil it down to not having CCS or active thermal management, but bottom line the leaf is a city car, not for long range commutes imo.

    I don't understand why you would be willing to shoot yourself in the foot, it's a sacrifice you just don't need to make now that other options are available and at the same price range. The only positive the Leaf has over other cars in it's price bracket is the extra size.

    The e2008 is coming very soon which is a similar size, though I've not heard any Irish pricing yet. If they can bring it in starting at €30,000 then the only time I will recommend a Leaf will be where someone has invested in a CHAdeMO V2G system.

    I drive an e-Up! and am upgrading to an electric Mini, I have no skin in this game, but the Nissan apologists are start to descend into fanboyism.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,487 ✭✭✭ Laviski


    liamog wrote: »
    I drive an e-Up! and am upgrading to an electric Mini, I have no skin in this game, but the Nissan apologists are start to descend into fanboyism.

    and i don't understand how people reiterate the same post of the same thing over and over again without bringing new material or keeping within scope of OP. I bought my leaf this year with full knowledge of the Chademo/CSS and no active cooling. It isn't a concern for the use i need the car to perform. I don't regret my purchase, it was earlier than i anticipated as result of some external factors making the push.

    but go on keep banging that drum, don't see how it is constructive for the OP as such stuff should be discussed in the nissan leaf thread.

    There is more to a car than its fast charging abilities. I think what i've said is quite clear,
    short/medium regular journeys leaf should be in consideration regardless of the fast charging issues. In case you forgot this is the scope of use which the OP stated. As a new leaf owner was providing some insight.
    long regular journeys, leaf's should not be anywhere near consideration imo.

    also i am not a Nissan fanboy
    in the Telsa fanclub, if money could stretch or decent M3 second hand i would be there in a heartbeat. so maybe in a few years will re visit to buy another car


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,214 ✭✭✭ kanuseeme


    Every electric car is a sacrifice of some sort, range, cost, charging speed. it boils down to what you can live with.

    I see nothing wrong with the Nissan leaf as long as you are aware of its limitations, but it's the best selling EV here for years and its a brand every one knows.

    As for CSS or Chademo debate if you need 20 kWh to get home its 13 minutes @ 90 kW or 26 minutes @ 45 kW hardly a deal breaker and the only place you can get the faster speed is @ ionity with 4 locations and 2 being built, and from reading the ionity thread, as far as I am concerned nothing great about their service.

    I thought Laviski offered some great advice and I think its well worth the risk of loosing 1000 euro value on your trade in than buying a car that your stuck with for a few years.


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  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 5,201 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Sheep Shagger


    Thanks lads, your opinions really are appreciated.

    Dumb question and one I cant find the answer to online and forgot to ask the dealers. Are the home power boxes compatible with all brands of cars.

    I know different brands have different plug types but that's the end going into the car. If we were to install a power box at home for a Peoguet does that mean visitors couldn't use it of that were driving say a leaf or kona (and of we changed brands down the road we may have to get a different charging box).


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 6,429 Mod ✭✭✭✭ liamog


    Home chargers now are pretty much all type 2, make sure you get a 7.2kW 32A, for the best charging speeds at home.
    All new car's come with a type 2 port. Older Nissan Leaf's and some other model have a type 1 port.

    Your main choice is tethered (cable built in) vs untethered (socket and use cable that came with car)
    Tethered is probably the best option as it makes it slightly easier when charging at home, but you need a secure enough location to charge.
    If you do have visitors with older Leaf's they can either use an adapter, or if you have an untethered charger they can use a type 2 to type 1 cable, which they probably have already to use public slow chargers.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,339 ✭✭✭ championc


    If you have any thoughts on installing solar panels in the future, get a Zappi charger, which will charge the car with excess solar energy


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 5,201 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Sheep Shagger


    championc wrote: »
    If you have any thoughts on installing solar panels in the future, get a Zappi charger, which will charge the car with excess solar energy

    Handy, we actually have solar panels on the roof of the house.


  • Registered Users Posts: 724 ✭✭✭ useless


    Am I right in saying that you’re shortly going to have two kids, so you’ll need two car seats and you want the ability to carry another adult in the back occasionally?

    If so, I think you would be mad to consider a 208, e or otherwise. There simply won’t be enough room for double buggy plus shopping plus all the baby paraphernalia. An adult simply won’t fit in the back with the two car seats. You mentioned a 4 year HP deal- in 4 years you’ll most likely have one child in school and may be into the school run/playdate scenario where you’ll need to carry a third booster seat - you’ll struggle to fit it.

    Forget how the car is powered for the moment. Think of your other requirements first, then see if there’s something electric that works for you.

    You’ll need something the size of the Ioniq or larger. How much longer can you wait? Reason I ask is that the VW ID3 might be an option. Afaik they should be here by year end but who knows with Covid. Even then it’s Golf sized so still small enough but you’d manage.

    For comparison, when I was in your position almost 10 years ago I bought a nearly new SMax. Still have it and it’s been a fantastic car for the purpose we bought it. Still is.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 5,201 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Sheep Shagger


    useless wrote: »
    Am I right in saying that you’re shortly going to have two kids, so you’ll need two car seats and you want the ability to carry another adult in the back occasionally?

    If so, I think you would be mad to consider a 208, e or otherwise. There simply won’t be enough room for double buggy plus shopping plus all the baby paraphernalia. An adult simply won’t fit in the back with the two car seats. You mentioned a 4 year HP deal- in 4 years you’ll most likely have one child in school and may be into the school run/playdate scenario where you’ll need to carry a third booster seat - you’ll struggle to fit it.

    Forget how the car is powered for the moment. Think of your other requirements first, then see if there’s something electric that works for you.

    You’ll need something the size of the Ioniq or larger. How much longer can you wait? Reason I ask is that the VW ID3 might be an option. Afaik they should be here by year end but who knows with Covid. Even then it’s Golf sized so still small enough but you’d manage.

    For comparison, when I was in your position almost 10 years ago I bought a nearly new SMax. Still have it and it’s been a fantastic car for the purpose we bought it. Still is.

    Kids are thankfully past buggys (no more kids either!). Agree 100% the boot wouldn't be anywhere near big enough.

    The adult in the back would be few and far between and only for very very short trips (a grandparent to the zoo maybe or maybe a playdate with a booster seat, again very few and far between times) and never for any major distance.

    Looked at the Ioniq but didn't like it and the new VW looks like it will be out of our price range and it size canin may not be that much more. Not interested in another ICE car and we've ruled out self charging hybrids and hybrids.

    Getting closer to the e208 I think, will think about it over the next day or so before pulling the trigger.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,339 ✭✭✭ championc


    In my opinion, Hybrids are a fudge. Either go Full EV or don't bother. You'll be blue in the face plugging in a Hybrid at ever hands turn. Most decent EV's will get you all the way to most locations in Ireland. A one hour stop at a fast charger and you should have enough to then get you home.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 60,559 CMod ✭✭✭✭ unkel


    Like the OP, I spend 99% of my time in and around Dublin. I bought an EV with a very small 28kWh battery as our only family car in January 2017. And it's been fine. On the rare occasions I traveled beyond the range of the car, I used the public fast charging network.

    11PM: 15kW o'clock!



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,028 ✭✭✭ Lantus


    If it were me I'd go with the leaf. Bigger car and better value than the e208 which is huge money for what you get.

    A 19 leaf is 27 to 28k so good value.

    The nuances of battery and charging or range will never affect you or be an issue so I wouldn't even weigh it up.

    Test drove the leaf and its well nice.

    Remember it's just a car and can be sold and changed as needs change over time so don't over think it!


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 60,559 CMod ✭✭✭✭ unkel


    Lantus wrote: »
    A 19 leaf is 27 to 28k so good value.

    That's poor value in my book. A better specced car with a similar range like a 19 Ioniq can be had for €23k, there's one for sale from a forum regular, in excellent condition.

    11PM: 15kW o'clock!



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,487 ✭✭✭ Laviski


    i bought new for that price..


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 5,201 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Sheep Shagger


    Laviski wrote: »
    i bought new for that price..

    Yep not buying a 19 when it's the same/very close for a 202.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,491 ✭✭✭✭ KCross


    championc wrote: »
    In my opinion, Hybrids are a fudge. Either go Full EV or don't bother. You'll be blue in the face plugging in a Hybrid at ever hands turn.

    Why is that?
    You plug it in once a day the same as you would a BEV.
    championc wrote: »
    Most decent EV's will get you all the way to most locations in Ireland. A one hour stop at a fast charger and you should have enough to then get you home.

    :eek:

    No thanks. And I think you'll find most of the general public wont be up for that either.


  • Registered Users Posts: 30,669 ✭✭✭✭ Lumen


    KCross wrote: »
    No thanks. And I think you'll find most of the general public wont be up for that either.

    The problem is that whilst there are many, many places in Ireland that I'd like to spend an hour, none of them are motorway service stations. :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,491 ✭✭✭✭ KCross


    Lumen wrote: »
    The problem is that whilst there are many, many places in Ireland that I'd like to spend an hour, none of them are motorway service stations. :D

    Indeed. Soleless places where you just want to get in and out as quickly as you can.

    Having to stay longer because of the car you drive is a no no for me.

    My own goal for my next EV is to be able to drive Cork-Dublin (@ 120km/h) with no more than a 15-20min stop, which is close to how long it would take to get in/out of the shop and toilet anyway.

    I think thats do-able with the new wave of EV's... e208 and ID.3 (with optional 100kW charging) should be able to do it.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 60,559 CMod ✭✭✭✭ unkel


    KCross wrote: »
    My own goal for my next EV is to be able to drive Cork-Dublin (@ 120km/h) with no more than a 15-20min stop

    You're finally getting a 2016 Ioniq? :)

    11PM: 15kW o'clock!



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,339 ✭✭✭ championc


    KCross wrote: »
    Indeed. Soleless places where you just want to get in and out as quickly as you can.

    Having to stay longer because of the car you drive is a no no for me.

    My own goal for my next EV is to be able to drive Cork-Dublin (@ 120km/h) with no more than a 15-20min stop, which is close to how long it would take to get in/out of the shop and toilet anyway.

    I think thats do-able with the new wave of EV's... e208 and ID.3 (with optional 100kW charging) should be able to do it.

    I've an e-Niro, so I can almost get to Cork and back, and when I'm commuting after this lockdown, my 60km daily round trip will require charging once per week.

    So a splash and dash on a return leg is very possible, but the likelihood is that I'd get it charged at a public AC charge point overnight.


  • Moderators Posts: 12,132 ✭✭✭✭ Black_Knight


    unkel wrote: »
    You're finally getting a 2016 Ioniq? :)

    2 stops at 120km/hr in an Ioniq 28 Cork-Dublin, unless you're brave/stupid.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,215 ✭✭✭ Kramer


    2 stops at 120km/hr in an Ioniq 28 Cork-Dublin, unless you're brave/stupid.

    Why would you need to stop twice? Isn't it approx. 260km?
    Surely, setting out with a fully charged Ioniq, just one 15 minute stop would suffice?

    You should check your Ioniq's tyre pressures - you must have terrible efficiency :p.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,491 ✭✭✭✭ KCross


    unkel wrote: »
    You're finally getting a 2016 Ioniq? :)

    Its close but not quite there. You need a bit more in reserve than the Ioniq would give you.

    My use case is when Im travelling to matches, concerts etc. Quite often (5-10 times a year) I'd do a journey like that in the one day and I'd need to arrive at the destination with enough to get back to the rapid charge on the way home.

    The Ioniq wouldnt do it without a compromise somewhere in speed or charging time.


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