EV vs PHEV - we spend 99% of our time in and around Dublin

Sheep Shagger

Hi lads,

Complete novice to this, have read through the forum and some other places online. We are planning to ditch our 2012 diesel family car for an electric car this year.

Looking at brand new and given we live, work and mostly commute around Dublin (might drive to Cork or Galway a couple of times a year), we are looking at a Renault Zoe (budget is up to mid €30k). Not interested in a PCP, will be straight Hire Purchase over a max of 4 years (hopefully with as close to zero interest rate as possible!)

https://www.renault.ie/electric/zoe.html

From what I can see I'm not sure we would get much benefit out of spending extra on a hybrid as we won't be far from home (where we'll get a charger installed) very often at all.

What would your thoughts be in such a scenario?

Hoping to get a good deal on a 201 or even maybe a 202 when car dealers open later this month, will be interesting to see how they do test drives under COVID-19 too.

Black_Knight

For your lack of distance driving, and the potential low sales of the new Hyundai Ioniq, you could keep an eye on them for a deal. They're overpriced, and have a slower rate of charge than their older (lesser range) Ioniq, so they're likely not flying out the door. If Hyundai realise this, and start doing deals, you could get a very good ~250km motorway range car for mid 30s money.

Sounds like a PHEV would be of little benefit to you.
PHEV is for "my commute is close, but I travel long distances regularly" people.

ewj1978

You could get a Kia Soul for mid 30's (up to 450kms range, if you drive it like a granny)
Ioniq as black knight said.
long range Zoe starts at 27k (400km range, again granny driving)
leaf 62 starts at 33k. (385 km range, which is awful)
Bmw i3 again mid 30's (300km odd range)
E golf mid 20's (200km range), soon to be replaced by the new VW ID

Personally I'd avoid a PHEV as you'd just be lugging an ICE engine around and not using it for most of the time.

zg3409

Firstly if you want to reduce risk buy used as if you change your mind it won't cost the earth to change back.

What is your typical daily commute and odd once a month commute? If its very low then there is no fuel savings to be had. Most PHEV have tiny electric only range.

Have you sat in the Zoe? Its a great car but very small.

Do you have access to a second car for long trips? Stopping to charge on long trips is main downside to EVs and the normal Zoe is not that fast to charge when at fast chargers. Its typically 22kW when others are 50kW meaning 40 minutes wait vs 20 minutes. The newest Zoe does have an option for 50kW but is an optional extra.

The really biggest downside to EV is when there is no public fast charger on your planned trip or there is but it is broken or busy, are you willing to take a risk that you will arrive to find charger in use for 45 minutes and only then can you charge? I say this as if you want to save money unless you have decent commute (100km a day) and buy used you won't save money. You won't save the environment now either with local trips and new car. What is your car now and is it too big or small?

ELM327

If you're only pootling about Dublin you probably wont drive it enough to see fuel savings.
If I was living in Dublin and only doing short trips I'd have a big lazy v8. Or compromise and get a lexus LS600h.

Lumen

Mini Electric
e-208
Honda e

Sheep Shagger

zg3409 wrote: »

Firstly if you want to reduce risk buy used as if you change your mind it won't cost the earth to change back.

What is your typical daily commute and odd once a month commute? If its very low then there is no fuel savings to be had. Most PHEV have tiny electric only range.

Have you sat in the Zoe? Its a great car but very small.

Do you have access to a second car for long trips? Stopping to charge on long trips is main downside to EVs and the normal Zoe is not that fast to charge when at fast chargers. Its typically 22kW when others are 50kW meaning 40 minutes wait vs 20 minutes. The newest Zoe does have an option for 50kW but is an optional extra.

The really biggest downside to EV is when there is no public fast charger on your planned trip or there is but it is broken or busy, are you willing to take a risk that you will arrive to find charger in use for 45 minutes and only then can you charge? I say this as if you want to save money unless you have decent commute (100km a day) and buy used you won't save money. You won't save the environment now either with local trips and new car. What is your car now and is it too big or small?

Sorry thought I replied to this.

Daily commute is 25km round trip and we have a 2012 diesel at the moment, we were looking to change before the magical 10 year mark but there are some good deals around on new and the dealer has given us a pretty good trade in estimate.

We always said our next should be electric as that's the way things are going. Fortunately we only commute around Dublin so can charge it at home and for the handful of times we go to Galway a year (could count on one hand) there are public chargers around.

Of course it depends how it goes when we get to see a Zoe upfront and in person. So far I think it's a good fit for us but the back seat (with 2 kids car seats) could mean it's tight.

Looking at the mid range Zoe (Iconic R110 Rapid Charge). Heard the CCS add on is worth it for resale?

Depending on what deal we can strike, a 201 or 202 as older than that the batteries are not as good (so I've read).

n97 mini

Do you go to Galway city? You could let someone else do the driving and take the train or bus instead?

Black_Knight

Sheep Shagger wrote: »

Sorry thought I replied to this.

Daily commute is 25km round trip and we have a 2012 diesel at the moment, we were looking to change before the magical 10 year mark but there are some good deals around on new and the dealer has given us a pretty good trade in estimate.

We always said our next should be electric as that's the way things are going. Fortunately we only commute around Dublin so can charge it at home and for the handful of times we go to Galway a year (could count on one hand) there are public chargers around.

Of course it depends how it goes when we get to see a Zoe upfront and in person. So far I think it's a good fit for us but the back seat (with 2 kids car seats) could mean it's tight.

Looking at the mid range Zoe (Iconic R110 Rapid Charge). Heard the CCS add on is worth it for resale?

Depending on what deal we can strike, a 201 or 202 as older than that the batteries are not as good (so I've read).

CCS would be more desirable in a resale, but unless you're getting the benefit of it while you own it, it might not be worth it. Whats it cost extra?
UK says £750, So I guess around €1k here?

Renaults site gives a handy (though im not sure how accurate) range meter for the Zoe. It gets pretty damning at higher speeds. That ~375km range drops down to about 200km at 120kph. That'd just get you to Galway with nothing left, though you'd most likely drive at 110kph to keep the stress levels down.

Dublin to Cork would require a stop for about 40 minutes according to ABRP (abetterrouteplanner), which is possibly assuming a CCS charger (it pointed me towards Ionity). In reality you'd be looking at possibly closer to 50 minutes to an hour if charging on AC. Drive at 110kph and it'd be more like 30 minutes.

Another thing to note, the Zoe 50 has a 50kWh battery, meaning on a 3 pin charger (granny cable) it'd take about a full day to charge from zero, so depending on how your trips to Cork/Galway go, you could have to factor in more fast charging.

The free AC chargers littered around the country will charge the Zoe in a bit over 2 hours - 2km added every minute.
Rapid chargers on the motorway would add about 2km every minute when charging on AC.
Fork out for the CCS connection and that'd be about 4km every minute added when charging on DC.

Either way, the Zoe is not going to get to Cork without stopping, unless you drive at ~90km/hr all the way.

unkel

Black_Knight wrote: »

Either way, the Zoe is not going to get to Cork without stopping, unless you drive at ~90km/hr all the way.

On a good day. With no wind and no rain. In summer

Ioniq 28kWh can do that too BTW...

Black_Knight

unkel wrote: »

On a good day. With no wind and no rain. In summer

Would that be the same summer ESB are installing the 150kW chargers?

unkel wrote: »

Ioniq 28kWh can do that too BTW...

Wouldn't have the patience for it. Somehow i'd much rather boot along at 120km/hr and deal with charging along the way... multiple times... damn Mayfield... damn IKEA and it's lack of charger... damn slow portlaois charge point!

unkel

Black_Knight wrote: »

Would that be the same summer ESB are installing the 150kW chargers?

2022?

Sheep Shagger

Good to know re Cork and Galway thanks, as I say would be once or twice a year for either max.

Vast majority of driving is in and around Dublin.

The CCS upgrade is €750.

Need to do some more research and of course have a look at one on the flesh when we can.

Sheep Shagger

n97 mini wrote: »

Do you go to Galway city? You could let someone else do the driving and take the train or bus instead?

Once a year maybe, sounds like we'd have to break up the trip with anything that is 100% electric to allow for charging.

Could probably deal with that for the few times we drive that distance a year TBH

Black_Knight

Sheep Shagger wrote: »

Once a year maybe, sounds like we'd have to break up the trip with anything that is 100% electric to allow for charging.

Could probably deal with that for the few times we drive that distance a year TBH

IF Hyundai cop on with the new Ioniq 38, they might do some deals with it, and make it attainable at mid 30s. That should do Dublin to Galway handy, and thought probably not Dublin to Cork. If it can be got at mid 30s or less, it's not a bad car for your circumstances. It's not a good car at its current price, and not a good car if you need to use fast chargers (Dublin-Cork probably would).

Sheep Shagger

Black_Knight wrote: »

IF Hyundai cop on with the new Ioniq 38, they might do some deals with it, and make it attainable at mid 30s. That should do Dublin to Galway handy, and thought probably not Dublin to Cork. If it can be got at mid 30s or less, it's not a bad car for your circumstances. It's not a good car at its current price, and not a good car if you need to use fast chargers (Dublin-Cork probably would).

So outside of the Cork and Galway thing, what do you think of the Zoe, for a Dublin based driver and family.

It seems to get good reviews on various websites and YouTube reviews. In the absence of a test drive am curious on peoples opinions.

Black_Knight

Sheep Shagger wrote: »

So outside of the Cork and Galway thing, what do you think of the Zoe, for a Dublin based driver and family.

It seems to get good reviews on various websites and YouTube reviews. In the absence of a test drive am curious on peoples opinions.

I've never driven one or researched them much, but once the spec and size are good enough for you, I'd say it'd be perfect.

adunis

I have a "classic" Ioniq and a ze4.0 Zoe.
Any specific questions ask away.

Lantus

Your mileage is very low... 6k a year at 25km a day.

If elec the kona, niro and esoul are all very good.

But your spending a lot to get an expensive battery for no economic benefit.

Look at what you get for your money in a new or nearly new petrol and see how it stacks up. You would get very high spec d cars for mid 30k.

If the economic argument is redundant and you have a passion for virtue signalling go for it.

unkel

Lantus wrote: »

and you have a passion for virtue signalling go for it.

:rolleyes:

ELM327

Lantus wrote: »

Your mileage is very low... 6k a year at 25km a day.

If elec the kona, niro and esoul are all very good.

But your spending a lot to get an expensive battery for no economic benefit.

Look at what you get for your money in a new or nearly new petrol and see how it stacks up. You would get very high spec d cars for mid 30k.

If the economic argument is redundant and you have a passion for virtue signalling go for it.

unkel wrote: »

He's not wrong.


If I had that sort of low miles (with this WFH I may have in the future) I'd be moving to a big lazy V8 or v/W12. Fook EV. For me it's a cost benefit analysis, pure and simple.

Sheep Shagger

adunis wrote: »

I have a "classic" Ioniq and a ze4.0 Zoe.
Any specific questions ask away.

Thanks, looking at the back seat alone.....is the Ioniq that much bigger than the Zoe?

In the absence of being able to see both up front, am trying to work out space along the back seat with 2 car seats (could a small adult squeeze in the middle if we ever had to).

unkel

Sheep Shagger wrote: »

Thanks, looking at the back seat alone.....is the Ioniq that much bigger than the Zoe?

In the absence of being able to see both up front, am trying to work out space along the back seat with 2 car seats (could a small adult squeeze in the middle if we ever had to).

Not a chance you could have 2 car seats in the back of a Zoe and then fit an adult in the middle as well. It's a small hatch! In Ioniq you might, you will have to try. I guess it will depend on the size of the car seats, the size of the adult and on how long the journey is.

Sheep Shagger

unkel wrote: »

Not a chance you could have 2 car seats in the back of a Zoe and then fit an adult in the middle as well. It's a small hatch! In Ioniq you might, you will have to try. I guess it will depend on the size of the car seats, the size of the adult and on how long the journey is.

Yeah we really need to see the Zoe and Ioniq up close.

We are coming to end of needing one of the car seats (well could be 2 years away) and the small adult squeezing in the middle would not be often at all and would only ever be very short distances (around our part of Dublin).

unkel

You don't really want to have 3 people at all in the back of a Zoe. But do go and try both cars yourself!

Black_Knight

Sheep Shagger wrote: »

Yeah we really need to see the Zoe and Ioniq up close.

We are coming to end of needing one of the car seats (well could be 2 years away) and the small adult squeezing in the middle would not be often at all and would only ever be very short distances (around our part of Dublin).

I'll dry fit our 2nd car seat later (baby 2 on the way) in my ioniq and take a pic. I know our bigger car seat requires my wife to pull forward a bit to stop our little one banging feet off the back of the seat.

I wouldn't fancy trying to get into the middle seat when the 2 car seats are in place though. Our seat is bulky though (it swivels).

Sheep Shagger

Black_Knight wrote: »

I'll dry fit our 2nd car seat later (baby 2 on the way) in my ioniq and take a pic. I know our bigger car seat requires my wife to pull forward a bit to stop our little one banging feet off the back of the seat.

I wouldn't fancy trying to get into the middle seat when the 2 car seats are in place though. Our seat is bulky though (it swivels).

Thanks - appreciate that.

Black_Knight

Bottle for scale. I wouldn't fancy sitting there for any period of time. I could, I'm "aerodynamic", but it'd be cosy.

My seat is in my driving position, and the baby seat is tight. I don't have the base in though, so it's not a completely true reflection of the vertical space it takes up. I'm 6 foot, but I could scooch forward a bit in comfort... And I will have to

Sheep Shagger

Black_Knight wrote: »

Bottle for scale. I wouldn't fancy sitting there for any period of time. I could, I'm "aerodynamic", but it'd be cosy.

My seat is in my driving position, and the baby seat is tight. I don't have the base in though, so it's not a completely true reflection of the vertical space it takes up. I'm 6 foot, but I could scooch forward a bit in comfort... And I will have to

Cheers that's very helpful.

That's in the Ionioq so assume the Zoe would be tighter?

Black_Knight

Sheep Shagger wrote: »

Cheers that's very helpful.

That's in the Ionioq so assume the Zoe would be tighter?

Zoe is 10 cm narrower, so they'd want to be doing some internal magicary to make the back bench wider than the ioniq. It won't be roomy either way

Sheep Shagger

Hi lads,

Back from a look at a few dealers today now they're all open.

Looked at the Zoe, Ioniq and Leaf.

Liked all three and was pleasantly surprised by the Leaf, was expecting it to be smaller than the Zoe. The Zoe is certainly small in the back seats (with car seats) but it seems everything in the €25-€35k EV bracket is that way.

The Leaf actually looks a tiny bit bigger than the Zoe.

Not sure for us, the extra on the Ioniq would be worth it. The back seats seemed on a par with Zoe but in fairness it has a bigger boot and a bit more legroom.

Will read through the individual vehicle threads here for more.

liamog

Sounds like you took a 2018 buyers guide to EVs
You should also check out the Peugeot e-208/Opel Corsa E. The Peugeot starts at €27,334 for around 300km of range.

jusmeig

Sheep Shagger wrote: »

Sorry thought I replied to this.

Daily commute is 25km round trip and we have a 2012 diesel at the moment, we were looking to change before the magical 10 year mark but there are some good deals around on new and the dealer has given us a pretty good trade in estimate.

We always said our next should be electric as that's the way things are going. Fortunately we only commute around Dublin so can charge it at home and for the handful of times we go to Galway a year (could count on one hand) there are public chargers around.

Of course it depends how it goes when we get to see a Zoe upfront and in person. So far I think it's a good fit for us but the back seat (with 2 kids car seats) could mean it's tight.

Looking at the mid range Zoe (Iconic R110 Rapid Charge). Heard the CCS add on is worth it for resale?

Depending on what deal we can strike, a 201 or 202 as older than that the batteries are not as good (so I've read).

Zoe and 2 car seats would be madness.
It's a very small car, and with all the trapping of kids u would have bags on your lap.

jusmeig

Sheep Shagger wrote: »

Hi lads,

Back from a look at a few dealers today now they're all open.

Looked at the Zoe, Ioniq and Leaf.

Liked all three and was pleasantly surprised by the Leaf, was expecting it to be smaller than the Zoe. The Zoe is certainly small in the back seats (with car seats) but it seems everything in the €25-€35k EV bracket is that way.

The Leaf actually looks a tiny bit bigger than the Zoe.

Not sure for us, the extra on the Ioniq would be worth it. The back seats seemed on a par with Zoe but in fairness it has a bigger boot and a bit more legroom.

Will read through the individual vehicle threads here for more.

My 2 cents:

Zoe -> Compact and too small in my opinion.
Leaf -> Good Family car, lots of room. Hatch back booth so getting stuff in/out is easy. Only downside would be the air cooled battery. Unless you are doing long trips its a non-issue, but for me being interested in the tech its a HUGE mistake by Nissan.
Ioniq -> Great car, drove one for 2 years. Plenty of space and fast CCS charging on the older one. Again the newer charging speed would be an non issue for me as I do very few long runs. The new Ioniq is probably faster charing than the leaf if you factor in Rapidgate.

Sheep Shagger

Excuse my ignorance, is the battery technology on a Leaf really that bad, havn't seen it come up in research I've done to date?

Missed the new electric Peugeot, will go and have a look up close this week.

Black_Knight

Sheep Shagger wrote: »

Excuse my ignorance, is the battery technology on a Leaf really that bad, havn't seen it come up in research I've done to date?

Missed the new electric Peugeot, will go and have a look up close this week.

The battery management tech (or lack of it) in the leaf is bad. Passively cooling the battery isn't good for the battery. It's a bad mistake to make, and they seem determined to keep making it.

Buyer beware I guess, but for tipping around town etc they're fine.

liamog

The Opel and the Peugeot are the same underneath, so if you like the size of the Peugeot but aren't keen on the styling then look at the Corsa E, it's apprently €4 more expensinve for the base spec.

Laviski

OP imo if you see leaf drivers, ask them how they find the car. More than not they would not even mention the fact the battery is air cooled been stated as a problem (doesn't have thermal management) . I specifically had to asked them about this, and asked how many bars they lost depending on the year of the car.
Some here believe that the leaf not having thermal management was Nissan shooting themselves in the foot and perhaps they have a point. But this shouldn't mean you should overlook the leaf, if you do get a leaf you will manage it like drivers i talked to. Also i will point out this is Ireland and not the Sahara desert..... how often is our air temperatures even above 20c. During extreme hot spells i plan on being mind full of battery management but i think anyone with electric car would be as well but again it will be a rarity. If you also like having a heavy foot and don't like driving "leaf speed" as you prefer to be doing 120+ on the motorway then the leaf may also not be for you. Again some folks don't want to change their driving style/habbits or drive economically which is perfectly fine, then they should buy a p version Tesla.

I've got the new 2020 model and its miles ahead of the previous iterations. Love the car, but i did like the ionic too just not the price. I'm doing city driving not high mileage (apart from the odd long journey) so the leaf is a perfect fit. Didn't like the Renault or Peugeot.

if you plan on doing high mileage then the ionic is more suited or if you are more heavily reliant on fast charging using ccs. Regular short/medium journeys imo the leaf 40kw is a better fit. (you could always look at getting the 60Kw but my opinions and research was just on the 40, but if was toying on getting the 60kw i might hold off and save for whats needed to get an T M3)

Sheep Shagger

Cheers, the battery 'issue' certainly doesnt put us off the leaf, for our mileage and as you point out our climate I can't really see it being a problem.

The iconiq like you say is nice but it comes with a nice price.

Think we've discounted the Zoe

Will look at the Peugeot this week but another attraction of the leaf is that they've been around a while so have had the chance to iron out earlier problems.

liamog

If you are ok with a three door, there is also the Mini Cooper SE, but that's more of a car that's fun to drive. Good pricing though for what is arguably the first EV hot hatch.

Re the Leaf battery issues, our climate is enough for a Leaf to hit reduced rates of charge on a second fast charge. I've been stuck waiting for one to finish in Kilbeggan in the past.
It is something to keep in the back of your mind, as even the percieved problem can affect future value.

Sheep Shagger

liamog wrote: »

If you are ok with a three door, there is also the Mini Cooper SE, but that's more of a car that's fun to drive. Good pricing though for what is arguably the first EV hot hatch.

Re the Leaf battery issues, our climate is enough for a Leaf to hit reduced rates of charge on a second fast charge. I've been stuck waiting for one to finish in Kilbeggan in the past.
It is something to keep in the back of your mind, as even the percieved problem can affect future value.

Thanks, with the 2 kids want a five door but good to know.

Am trying to work out how the battery issue could affect us given the short distances we'll be doing almost exclusively zipping around Dublin and having a charger at home. For the handful of times we go to Galway or Cork each year (total trips of that distance could be counted on one hand) we'd be relying on public chargers and also the granny charge at the house we'd be staying at for both.

liamog

Sheep Shagger wrote: »

Thanks, with the 2 kids want a five door but good to know.

Am trying to work out how the battery issue could affect us given the short distances we'll be doing almost exclusively zipping around Dublin and having a charger at home. For the handful of times we go to Galway or Cork each year (total trips of that distance could be counted on one hand) we'd be relying on public chargers and also the granny charge at the house we'd be staying at for both.

Use https://abetterrouteplanner.com/ it has an option to select your car, and should give you an idea how many charges will be needed for any particular car.

The battery issues probably won't affect you that much, but just keep it in mind when it comes to reselling the car.

loopymum

What about an I3?

Sheep Shagger

loopymum wrote: »

What about an I3?

Looked at them but were outside our price range.

Laviski

liamog wrote: »

The battery issues probably won't affect you that much, but just keep it in mind when it comes to reselling the car.

what sells a car is its battery health and clear service history. If a car is kept in good shape the fact that it has active or passive thermal management is secondary.

Lantus

Sheep Shagger wrote: »

Thanks, with the 2 kids want a five door but good to know.

Am trying to work out how the battery issue could affect us given the short distances we'll be doing almost exclusively zipping around Dublin and having a charger at home. For the handful of times we go to Galway or Cork each year (total trips of that distance could be counted on one hand) we'd be relying on public chargers and also the granny charge at the house we'd be staying at for both.

It may affect you only for those handful of journeys where you need to fast charge after a motorway stint. That's one hand or 5 or less times a year by my count. Not worth worrying about and you can always rent a car for those times if you fancy. Small cost in grand scheme.

liamog

Personally I'd just avoid buying a product from a company that made such an obvious mistake, especially considering they have 10 years experience.

Sheep Shagger

Lantus wrote: »

It may affect you only for those handful of journeys where you need to fast charge after a motorway stint. That's one hand or 5 or less times a year by my count. Not worth worrying about and you can always rent a car for those times if you fancy. Small cost in grand scheme.

Yeah don't think it will really affect is.

Is it a case that after a long distance drive the battery is too hot to charge straight away (and it will take time to cool down). The handful of times we go to Cork or Gakway we wouldn't be in a rush to fast charge straight away anyway.

liamog

According to ABRP, Dublin Cork would need about 175% of a Leaf 40kWh, I'd be planning two charges in that case, so you might just be impacted.

fricatus

Sheep Shagger wrote: »

Is it a case that after a long distance drive the battery is too hot to charge straight away (and it will take time to cool down). The handful of times we go to Cork or Gakway we wouldn't be in a rush to fast charge straight away anyway.

Not exactly. The battery gets hot, so depending on the temperature, the Battery Management System (BMS) "throttles" or slows down the rate at which the charge can be delivered in, so as to protect the battery.

Normally if you drive the car down to 15-20%, the temperature doesn't get up to those levels straight away, so if you've to stop once, you can normally get OK speeds, like 40 kW or so, which means probably a 30-40 minute stop.

However that fast charge, plus subsequent driving is usually enough to make the battery hot enough that the next fast charge might be quite slow, maybe 15-20 kW. You'd probably be OK going from Dublin to Cork or Galway on that basis, especially if you can do a slow (destination) charge while you're there, because you'll probably only stop once on the way.

The downside is that the battery is really slow to cool down, so there's still some residual heat there the next day. That could mean that if you went straight home, your first fast charge might be quite slow.

If you can live with that restriction, by all accounts it's a really good car.

There are plenty of videos about this if you want to know more. Just search for "rapidgate" on YouTube. I would recommend any by Bjørn Nyland, as he's really thorough.

Laviski

for the 1% of journeys, can always rent an ICE when you have long drives and under time pressures that you don't want to stop or be worried about fast charge availability.

renting a ICE is cheap enough per day as a rare use and could drop at destination if they rental company has office near by.

I'm in the that boat at present, so depending on my own 1% I would take my time with the leaf to plan my stops (drive leaf speed as what the folks say), rent an ICE car or take train/bus.