Masks

Seanergy · 20-05-2020 11:59PM

Yes: valved

Meanwhile, Simon Harris continues to recklessly promote the flawed HSE safety video on facecoverings along with State flawed safety instructionals on gov.ie. I told Harris, the HSE, Holohan and co on friday and Saurday as I discovered the flawed saftey instructionals throughout all the facecoverings literature that they released.

Here is his tweat from today and a screenshot of the GOV.IE page he is sending people to.

Screen-Shot-2020-05-20-at-18.42.26.png

chicorytip · 21-05-2020 12:05AM

Yes: homemade

Away With The Fairies wrote: »

It's not a surprise when masks/coverings aren't mandatory.

Every aspect of the governments handling of this crisis has been reactionary rather than proactive. This "advice" on the wearing of face protection outdoors is another example. It ought to have been mandatory from the very beginning with sufficient supplies of (respirator type) masks made available for all, free of charge. The Czech Republic did this to good effect so why not us? There is a lack of intelligence and original thinking in cabinet exemplified by Leo and Harris.

Boggles · 21-05-2020 09:02AM

Forget it even getting near mandatory. The advisory was next level confusion and fence sitting.

The "advice" was akin to "sure don't wear if you don't want, you won't be judged the science is sketchy anyway, wash your hands, sure be grand".

It's hardly surprising virtually no one on public transport is wearing them.

Boggles · 21-05-2020 09:07AM

Canadians have now flipped and are recommending masks, because of new science or something. :rolleyes:

Someone must have opened a medical journal from 1918.

McGiver · 21-05-2020 09:11AM

No: I don't care enough

Away With The Fairies wrote: »

Other countries making mask wearing mandatory... Can somebody please explain how Ireland is different with this virus?

Just saw a bus pass by and no one with a mask on it. How will distancing help if somebody sneezes on a bus?

.... If someone talks and breathes on the bus.
Sneezing and coughing are not the only ways of transmission. Coronavirus is proven to be spreading by breathing and talking. Obviously less than a cough but it still does.

McGiver · 21-05-2020 09:17AM

No: I don't care enough

Boggles wrote: »

99% of commuters 'ignoring advice' on face masks according to transport workers

Add to the fact large swathes of people are now acting like there is no pandemic, it will be a fúcking miracle if this thing doesn't flair up again in the next 6 weeks.

I'd predicted that. Let's wait 4-6 weeks.
Second wave is coming and we'll be in another lockdown. More deaths, more deficit, more unemployment. We'll all pay. And that only because the government is full of clowns and cowards.

"You may choose to wear a mask" was never going to work in Ireland.

ednwireland · 21-05-2020 09:17AM

No: other

considering other countries are handing them out at the entrances to public transport, ireland nah - sort yourself out not that i have nay problem with that but if you want to make an initial point there should have been people handing them out bus stops, luas stops, on monday and tuesday.

plenty of public sector workers on full pay around not working

Boggles · 21-05-2020 09:29AM

For all their failings, I don't think I have seen a report in the past week or so from the states where virtually everyone were wearing masks, including the reporters.

Even the storm the government assault rifle nuts were wearing them to some degree.

kowloonkev · 21-05-2020 09:32AM

Yes: surgical

ednwireland wrote: »

considering other countries are handing them out at the entrances to public transport, ireland nah - sort yourself out not that i have nay problem with that but if you want to make an initial point there should have been people handing them out bus stops, luas stops, on monday and tuesday.

plenty of public sector workers on full pay around not working

Which countries are handing out free masks?

Boggles · 21-05-2020 09:36AM

kowloonkev wrote: »

Which countries are handing out free masks?

Virtually every country in Europe that made them mandatory had a phased mask push, i.e. handing out free ones.

Spain did it through their pharmacies, Austria distributed to people at all supermarkets, Germany did something similar.

krissovo · 21-05-2020 09:36AM

kowloonkev wrote: »

Which countries are handing out free masks?

Spain, France, Latvia as far as I know

weldoninhio · 21-05-2020 09:45AM

No: I will wait for the HSE to recommend

McGiver wrote: »

I'd predicted that. Let's wait 4-6 weeks.
Second wave is coming and we'll be in another lockdown. More deaths, more deficit, more unemployment. We'll all pay. And that only because the government is full of clowns and cowards.

"You may choose to wear a mask" was never going to work in Ireland.

Jesus wept. Some people just love projecting their fears onto other people. It’s ridiculous. The virus is currently at about R0.4-R0.6 in Ireland according to failed journalism student Harris. Yet people are freaking out about people not wearing masks. Grow up and take a long hard look at yourself.

The virus is pretty much gone from the community in Ireland.

“ Modelling data published by the Department of Health suggests that at the moment, the spread of the virus in the community is substantially under control.”

Denmark has reopened and scientists can’t explain how it hasn’t spiked again.

“A second wave of the new coronavirus is unlikely in Denmark as the reproduction rate has stayed below a key threshold since restrictions were eased a month ago, a top health expert said Tuesday. The reproduction rate has fallen from 1.0 at the end of April to 0.7 in the first week in May, according to the state-run infectious disease prevention agency SSI, the nation's top institute of its kind.“

ednwireland · 21-05-2020 09:50AM

No: other

kowloonkev wrote: »

Which countries are handing out free masks?

france
https://www.france24.com/en/video/20200511-paris-suburb-distributes-free-masks-as-france-eases-lockdown-measures

Away With The Fairies · 21-05-2020 10:01AM

Yes: valved

McGiver wrote: »

.... If someone talks and breathes on the bus.
Sneezing and coughing are not the only ways of transmission. Coronavirus is proven to be spreading by breathing and talking. Obviously less than a cough but it still does.

I linked to something here last week that said that more droplets are produced when talking than for a cough.

I still don't understand why Ireland is different. Cop on would tell you, anywhere people gathers would be a good time to wear a mask and that's what I've been doing.

Wibbs · 21-05-2020 10:02AM

Yes: other

weldoninhio wrote: »

Jesus wept. Some people just love projecting their fears onto other people. It’s ridiculous. The virus is currently at about R0.4-R0.6 in Ireland according to failed journalism student Harris. Yet people are freaking out about people not wearing masks. Grow up and take a long hard look at yourself.

The virus is pretty much gone from the community in Ireland.

“ Modelling data published by the Department of Health suggests that at the moment, the spread of the virus in the community is substantially under control.”

Denmark has reopened and scientists can’t explain how it hasn’t spiked again.

“A second wave of the new coronavirus is unlikely in Denmark as the reproduction rate has stayed below a key threshold since restrictions were eased a month ago, a top health expert said Tuesday. The reproduction rate has fallen from 1.0 at the end of April to 0.7 in the first week in May, according to the state-run infectious disease prevention agency SSI, the nation's top institute of its kind.“

I suspect the long talked about second wave - much, if not most of it down to erroneously applying the 1918 pandemic to this one, including by scientists who should know better - is unlikely to happen. The "trick" being to subdue community transmission in the first place. It may pop up again come winter cold/flu season if there's enough of a reservoir in the population to sustain it until then.

The peak time for masks was well over a month ago and Ireland and others missed it, hence our high number of deaths per population compared to others who brought them in(and border control, quarantine, tests etc). We should be at around 200 dead, not around 1600 and that was down to many failings of our so called authorities from the get go, their position on masks being one of them.

Wibbs · 21-05-2020 10:08AM

Yes: other

weldoninhio wrote: »

The virus is pretty much gone from the community in Ireland.

This part I'm less sure of W. And we can't be sure unless testing has gone through the roof. Given it seems a high percentage are asymptomatic and they wouldn't even go for testing for obvious reasons. The only thing we can be sure of are the deaths and hospital admissions numbers and proper contact tracing on them. They are heading the right way. If they can show 90% or whatever of those admissions and deaths are from care homes or medical personnel then the risk in the community it very low, if it's more 60/45% then not so much.

krissovo · 21-05-2020 10:09AM

Wibbs wrote: »

The peak time for masks was well over a month ago and Ireland and others missed it, hence our high number of deaths per population compared to others who brought them in(and border control, quarantine, tests etc). We should be at around 200 dead, not around 1600 and that was down to many failings of our so called authorities from the get go, their position on masks being one of them.

We should be lower than 200, take Singapore, similar population but very densely populated. They had a clear strategy between efficient contact tracing and a mask culture they are well under 100 deaths.

Wibbs · 21-05-2020 10:16AM

Yes: other

Oh sure, though the Asian nations are more used to rapid responses after SARS and various flu strains and tend to have very top down government and much more social and community compliance and are more likely to wear face masks anyway, so that makes a big difference. If we come closer to home and European and were to take the Czech numbers because they were among the most "Asian" in their response, adjusting for population we should be at around 150 dead. So essentially through our authorities bumbling we've lost ten times more people what we should have. That's pretty stark.

Boggles · 21-05-2020 10:24AM

Brute force comparisons with singular countries are pointless without looking at the overall response.

Denmark took action earlier than most, their testing and tracing was not aspirational guff like ours and they closed their borders early March.

It's parts of the reasons they have less than half the confirmed cases and a 3rd of our deaths.

Boggles · 21-05-2020 10:31AM

Wibbs wrote: »

I suspect the long talked about second wave - much, if not most of it down to erroneously applying the 1918 pandemic to this one, including by scientists who should know better - is unlikely to happen. The "trick" being to subdue community transmission in the first place. It may pop up again come winter cold/flu season if there's enough of a reservoir in the population to sustain it until then.

Isn't that exactly what happened with the Spanish Flu?

Wibbs · 21-05-2020 10:49AM

Yes: other

Boggles wrote: »

Isn't that exactly what happened with the Spanish Flu?

Yes and no B. The conditions for it to do so were very different, as was how the virus was positively selected for lethality when it came back. There was a large reservoir in military forces that kept it going through the summers and the same forces selected for a much more lethal strain. In "normal" viral pandemics or even flu seasons mutations select for more mild illness. IE if you come down with it bad, you stay home in bed and limit spread. If you have a mild or asymptomatic case you live life as normal out in the world so the mild variant spreads more and is more selected to survive. In 1918 the reverse happened among troops. The mild ones stayed at their posts, the severe were sent back to already overcrowded field hospitals and from there into the wider community. So when it came back it was far more lethal. It was definitely the same virus, only slightly changed. We know that because people who caught it early on were immunised against the later version. That even happened with countries that had the spread of the early mutation.

Coronaviruses mutate at much slower rates and we're seeing that with this dose and it's mild, even asymptomatic for the vast majority who catch it. In the vast majority it also kills those we would expect it to kill. Old people, more men than women, more the already chronically sick etc. The 1918 lethal strain stood out because it almost reversed that trend. The very young and elderly were less affected, but it killed those in the prime of life in droves.

I've said it before that we've been very "lucky" in this case. The virus is of low lethality(I'm sticking with my early on prediction of 0.5 CFR) and isn't killing young healthy people except in extremely rare circumstances and almost all of them it subsequently turns out had underlying conditions. It's also not nearly as contagious as some viruses like measles.

It should be a wake up call for the world that this pretty "mild" virus has led to hospitals being overrun, medical science caught on the hop, the WHO ditto, most governments outside of a few running around like headless chickens, populations panicking and being blase in equal amounts and a massive hit to personal, national and international economies. We've been hit bad, but if it were like the more lethal 1918 flu we would have been in serious trouble. If it was a novel version of smallpox, where a third would be dead we'd have been utterly screwed.

Boggles · 21-05-2020 11:02AM

Wibbs wrote: »

Yes and no B. The conditions for it to do so were very different, as was how the virus was positively selected for lethality when it came back. There was a large reservoir in military forces that kept it going through the summers and the same forces selected for a much more lethal strain. In "normal" viral pandemics or even flu seasons mutations select for more mild illness. IE if you come down with it bad, you stay home in bed and limit spread. If you have a mild or asymptomatic case you live life as normal out in the world so the mild variant spreads more and is more selected to survive. In 1918 the reverse happened among troops. The mild ones stayed at their posts, the severe were sent back to already overcrowded field hospitals and from there into the wider community. So when it came back it was far more lethal. It was definitely the same virus, only slightly changed. We know that because people who caught it early on were immunised against the later version. That even happened with countries that had the spread of the early mutation.

Coronaviruses mutate at much slower rates and we're seeing that with this dose and it's mild, even asymptomatic for the vast majority who catch it. In the vast majority it also kills those we would expect it to kill. Old people, more men than women, more the already chronically sick etc. The 1918 lethal strain stood out because it almost reversed that trend. The very young and elderly were less affected, but it killed those in the prime of life in droves.

I've said it before that we've been very "lucky" in this case. The virus is of low lethality(I'm sticking with my early on prediction of 0.5 CFR) and isn't killing young healthy people except in extremely rare circumstances and almost all of them it subsequently turns out had underlying conditions. It's also not nearly as contagious as some viruses like measles.

It should be a wake up call for the world that this pretty "mild" virus has led to hospitals being overrun, medical science caught on the hop, the WHO ditto, most governments outside of a few running around like headless chickens, populations panicking and being blase in equal amounts and a massive hit to personal, national and international economies. We've been hit bad, but if it were like the more lethal 1918 flu we would have been in serious trouble. If it was a novel version of smallpox, where a third would be dead we'd have been utterly screwed.

The reality is though, the reasons you outlined for essentially the spread of the virus back then still very much exist in large parts of our planet. War, mass displacement, over run camps, humanitarian crises, in some ways are worse now.

A lot has changed in a 100 years and we are far more prepared and able to deal with such novel viruses, but people are forgetting one thing, the perfect delivery device for viruses has been virtually grounded. That didn't exist in 1918, it didn't exist to half the extent 20 years ago.

When that starts up again, it will spread again. It's fine and a sound idea that everyone on a flight has to wear a mask, the thing about though is it doesn't prevent the importation of the virus.

If you have to wear a mask on a flight to get here, but not on a packed train when you get here, it's nonsensical in the extreme.

I'd be very wary to suggest that this thing has been defeated to the point it is behind us apart from the odd flair up, hopefully I am wrong, but I have been basing my opinions since the start on sound science and I will be sticking with that going forward.

Markomlm · 21-05-2020 11:17AM

No: I will wait for the HSE to recommend

There seems to be alot of hysteria on here about face coverings. I did my shopping all throughout the peak of the pandemic without wearing a face mask, and I just don't believe there is a real reason to wear them especially now that the virus has effectively been eradicated from the community. I was in Tesco yesterday and I estimate that out of approx 50 people in store, only around 10 were wearing face masks. They do no harm, but are certainly no substitute for good hand hygiene and cough etiquette.

2u2me · 21-05-2020 11:17AM

Boggles wrote: »

I'd be very wary to suggest that this thing has been defeated to the point it is behind us apart from the odd flair up, hopefully I am wrong, but I have been basing my opinions since the start on sound science and I will be sticking with that going forward.

The science suggest quarantining visitors and those returning for 14 days before re-entering the public. Just like Taiwan, South Korea and China are doing.

Wibbs · 21-05-2020 11:24AM

Yes: other

Boggles wrote: »

The reality is though, the reasons you outlined for essentially the spread of the virus back then still very much exist in large parts of our planet. War, mass displacement, over run camps, humanitarian crises, in some ways are worse now.

Not nearly as heavily focused though. For example between 1917-18 the US alone had over two million troops overseas, the majority to Europe. Yes we have local conflicts but the scales are tiny by comparison and the movements of people are smaller too, even with refugee crisises. Though I would agree with you that refugee camps could be pressure cookers for viral reservoirs and spread, though again for different reasons compared to the 1918 pandemic. By pretty much every metric the world overall is in no way worse than it was in 1918. The only way it's worse is in the speed of modern transport and a much higher world population.

Boggles · 21-05-2020 11:31AM

Wibbs wrote: »

Not nearly as heavily focused though. For example between 1917-18 the US alone had over two million troops overseas, the majority to Europe.

There is 5 times more American citizens overseas now.

Global passenger air traffic is a touch off 5 billion annually.

The population of the planet in 1918 was under 2 billion.

Anyway fúck it, I'm having an optimistic day.

Hopefully it fúcks off in the next month or so and we can all get back to normal.

Wibbs · 21-05-2020 11:33AM

Yes: other

Markomlm wrote: »

There seems to be alot of hysteria on here about face coverings. I did my shopping all throughout the peak of the pandemic without wearing a face mask, and I just don't believe there is a real reason to wear them especially now that the virus has effectively been eradicated from the community.

Eradicated is a very strong word and one nobody can say with such confidence. Never mind that the stats already show that nations who mandated for masks and handled all the other risk reducers far better, have done far better than Ireland in infections, deaths and economic damage and are opening up more quickly. And yet here we are bumbling along as bloody usual. Like I said thankfully this wasn't as lethal as 1918 and nowhere near as lethal as smallpox, because it it were and going on our authorities reactive to the point of incompetent actions Ireland would have been utterly ruined.

I was in Tesco yesterday and I estimate that out of approx 50 people in store, only around 10 were wearing face masks. They do no harm, but are certainly no substitute for good hand hygiene and cough etiquette.

"Cough etiquette" is covered by having a mask on and far better than being told to cough into our sleeves, which was amateur hour as a recommendation and always about the worry of the lack of PPE for medical workers early on. The American CDC at least had the stones to admit that and when PPE supply went up, their surgeon general went from "masks are no use, except for medical staff" to going on national TV showing people how to make a DIY mask in double quick time.

sumonz · 21-05-2020 01:17PM

Does anyone know where to get masks? I've seen some of the big companies advertising them but I'd prefer local to try and support small businesses if at all possible.

Thanks in advance!

ctopher · 21-05-2020 01:20PM

sumonz wrote: »

Does anyone know where to get masks? I've seen some of the big companies advertising them but I'd prefer local to try and support small businesses if at all possible.

Thanks in advance!

I think there’s a few local designers making and selling masks. I’d say Instagram is a good bet to search. I got mine from a designer David Houghton and it’s great. I think was the website was Davidhoughton.ie!

sumonz · 21-05-2020 01:29PM

ctopher wrote: »

I think there’s a few local designers making and selling masks. I’d say Instagram is a good bet to search. I got mine from a designer David Houghton and it’s great. I think was the website was Davidhoughton.ie!

Cool I'll check that out, thanks so much!

Masks

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