Covid19 Part XVII-24,841 in ROI (1,639 deaths) 4,679 in NI (518 deaths)(28/05)Read OP

hmmm · 18-05-2020 12:58PM

owlbethere wrote: »

The media had a duty to report on the virus. Some media went overboard with scaremongering crap. Other media was more factual. They had a duty to report what was happening with this virus abroad and also at home. We saw people dropping on the streets in China back in December.

The government and the media didn't instil fear on purpose. The governments were not trying to cause panic in the populations and described this virus as a flu.

There's a lot of people behaving as if this is all over. Lockdown was the easy bit, living with this virus and trying to prevent it recurring is going to be even harder I think, as people realise there is a long-haul ahead until we get back to "normal".

There's a significant risk that we see a second wave heading into later this year and coinciding with flu season, and this has not gone away. The government is going to have a hard job convincing the country it needs lots of extra capacity in our hospitals for that period in case this does happen, and that's going to be even harder with the "it's just a flu bro" crowd spreading their unscientific and dangerous "common sense".

eagle eye · 18-05-2020 01:00PM

Plumbthedepths wrote:

There are many posters on the Covid threads , whom I personally believe take perverse pleasure in spreading as much fear and bull**** as they possibly can. I used to have respect for the comments of certain posters on this site, now I can dismiss them as hysterical morons.

I suppose you include me in that? I'm one that's not happy about us reopening. My reasons for that are that we are letting people in to the country freely and not ordering the wearing of facemasks.
You see I want to end this virus here and it can be done by quarantining all incomers and having everybody in urban areas, shops, public transport etc. wearing facemasks. That way the idiots are less likely to spread it. I also care about the economy but in a longer term view to many here. I am willing to have less money now in order that everything is good long term. Quarantine and facemasks guarantees we don't have another lockdown. Another lockdown destroys the economy because it makes the future uncertain.
That's why you'll see countries reopening and then saying everything is ok when cases start to rise again because they know how bad a second lockdown is for the economy.
So what I'm looking for is the best for the Irish people from both a health and financial standpoint.

frillyleaf · 18-05-2020 01:05PM

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Ye I don't see how there would be an issue with a guest house,
Be nice to get the kids down somewhere in the west with lots of place to play out side and nice beaches to spend the end of the summer on,
Don't care about pubs just a change of scenery for the kids

I hope lockdown ends sooner than on the roadmap. Being restricted to 5km / 20 km is very unrealistic until July.

frillyleaf · 18-05-2020 01:08PM

hmmm wrote: »

There's a lot of people behaving as if this is all over. Lockdown was the easy bit, living with this virus and trying to prevent it recurring is going to be even harder I think, as people realise there is a long-haul ahead until we get back to "normal".

There's a significant risk that we see a second wave heading into later this year and coinciding with flu season, and this has not gone away. The government is going to have a hard job convincing the country it needs lots of extra capacity in our hospitals for that period in case this does happen, and that's going to be even harder with the "it's just a flu bro" crowd spreading their unscientific and dangerous "common sense".

Lockdown isn’t over. We are still heavily restricted. If the restrictions are left until July or August we will have a month or two before flu season and lack of daylight kicks in. The restrictions in place until August will likely be brought forward to end of June . This is also when the pandemic payment will cease

Plumbthedepths · 18-05-2020 01:09PM

frillyleaf wrote: »

I hope lockdown ends sooner than on the roadmap. Being restricted to 5km / 20 km is very unrealistic until July.

The financial damage being done to the country will open things up quite quickly. The map is idiotically slow.

growleaves · 18-05-2020 01:13PM

Pharmacists urge free flu jab for all

The Government’s chief medical officer, Dr Tony Holohan, has stressed the need for people to receive the flu vaccination early and in greater numbers.

As well as making the vaccine available free to everyone from six months old, the IPU wants pharmacies to be allowed to administer it freely in nursing homes and workplaces.

caveat emptor · 18-05-2020 01:17PM

At least we know why we didn't implement quarantine or stop flights.
He's seriously trowing his toys out of the pram and criticising public health measure while simultaneously availing of 600 million in funds made available by UK government.

The truth is a 2 week quarantine does not fit with a city break. It does fit with stopping the virus to spread though.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/may/18/ryanair-chief-michael-oleary-uk-mismanaging-coronavirus-crisis

The chief executive of Ryanair has accused the UK government of mismanaging the Covid-19 crisis, as the airline halved its passenger forecast for this year and revealed it had tapped Britain’s corporate loan programme.

Michael O’Leary described the UK’s planned introduction of a 14-day quarantine period for travellers arriving from abroad as “idiotic and unimplementable”.

Gregor Samsa · 18-05-2020 01:17PM

eagle eye wrote: »

I suppose you include me in that? I'm one that's not happy about us reopening. My reasons for that are that we are letting people in to the country freely and not ordering the wearing of facemasks.
You see I want to end this virus here and it can be done by quarantining all incomers and having everybody in urban areas, shops, public transport etc. wearing facemasks...

You call for full quarantine a lot here, but it's just not possible. Maybe I'm over estimating what you mean my "quarantining all incomers", but if you take it literally, it means 2 week quarantine for all airline crews that land here, all ship crews, all long distance delivery drivers. Ireland's international trade - both inward and outward, would collapse immediately if that was implemented. That means certain food and medicine shortages. Even other countries that are touting the headline of "quarantine" for all incomers have to have exemptions for goods getting into the country. So there's always a potential route for the virus to come back in. No country can seal its borders.

That's not even taking into account the border with Northern Ireland that - with over 270 road crossings (more than all the rest of the EU/Non-EU road crossings combined) - is pretty much impossible to police.

If you mean air and ferry passengers, then maybe it's possible. but that's a far cry away from "all incomers". But then the question is, what does quarantine look like? A big camp that people are put in? Or an expectation that people stay in their accomodation for two weeks?

"Quarantining all incomers" sounds like a sure-fire and simple way to keep the disease out - especially since we're an island. But as always, the devil is in the details, and when you look at them, it's nowhere near as simple as it seems.

froog · 18-05-2020 01:17PM

hmmm wrote: »

There's a lot of people behaving as if this is all over. Lockdown was the easy bit, living with this virus and trying to prevent it recurring is going to be even harder I think, as people realise there is a long-haul ahead until we get back to "normal".

There's a significant risk that we see a second wave heading into later this year and coinciding with flu season, and this has not gone away. The government is going to have a hard job convincing the country it needs lots of extra capacity in our hospitals for that period in case this does happen, and that's going to be even harder with the "it's just a flu bro" crowd spreading their unscientific and dangerous "common sense".

agree. and the real hard thing will be going back a step if numbers start to rise again. it will be very very difficult to get people to comply. some countries there will be riots over it, guaranteed.

Boggles · 18-05-2020 01:18PM

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

The financial damage being done to the country will open things up quite quickly. The map is idiotically slow.

The financial damage will pale in comparison if we have to shut back down again.

caveat emptor · 18-05-2020 01:20PM

Gregor Samsa wrote: »

You call for full quarantine a lot here, but it's just not possible. Maybe I'm over estimating what you mean my "quarantining all incomers", but if you take it literally, it means 2 week quarantine for all airline crews that land here, all ship crews, all long distance delivery drivers. Ireland's international trade - both inward and outward, would collapse immediately if that was implemented. That means certain food and medicine shortages. Even other countries that are touting the headline of "quarantine" for all incomers have to have exemptions for goods getting into the country. So there's always a potential route for the virus to come back in. No country can seal its borders.

That's not even taking into account the border with Northern Ireland that - with over 270 road crossings (more than all the rest of the EU/Non-EU road crossings combined) - is pretty much impossible to police.

If you mean air and ferry passengers, then maybe it's possible. but that's a far cry away from "all incomers". But then the question is, what does quarantine look like? A big camp that people are put in? Or an expectation that people stay in their accomodation for two weeks?

"Quarantining all incomers" sounds like a sure-fire and simple way to keep the disease out - especially since we're an island. But as always, the devil is in the details, and when you look at them, it's nowhere near as simple as it seems.

Nice confounding of facts.

Truck drivers = essential.

Stag party does not.

An empty hotel is not a concentration camp.

BorneTobyWilde · 18-05-2020 01:20PM

Woodies this morning

Gregor Samsa · 18-05-2020 01:23PM

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Woodies this morning

Some would have thought...

In fairness, I was just reading this:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/the-reopening-shoppers-focus-on-getting-in-getting-out-and-getting-home-1.4256182

The first point of difference was the queue before the shop opened. There were 45 people standing patiently in line just before nine, each one diligently adhering to the new social distance rules and standing on the yellow tape marking out two metre gaps.

About half the people were wearing face masks, several had scarves wrapped tightly around their faces as if keeping out a bitter wind.

[...]

Then the doors opened. There was no rush for the entrance like you might see at the start of the winter sales. Everyone moved very slowly and carefully and just outside the sliding doors stood a staff member wearing a high vis jacket

[...]

Within minutes of the shop opening the queue outside had disappeared and the handful of cars in the carpark and the people wearing bright blue surgical masks was all the evidence that was needed that while one shop in a normally busy complex may be open again, it was anything but business as usual.

Plumbthedepths · 18-05-2020 01:23PM

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Woodies this morning

Many will actually believe your post is factual.

growleaves · 18-05-2020 01:27PM

Lockdown was the easy bit, living with this virus and trying to prevent it recurring is going to be even harder I think, as people realise there is a long-haul ahead until we get back to "normal".

The NYC police has thrown in the towel as regards enforcing social distancing after the public objected to heavy-handed arrests and the police union and its members became totally demoralised.

"New normal" not looking so viable. Maybe something a bit more practical than separating families and ending human interactions is called for?

Gregor Samsa · 18-05-2020 01:29PM

caveat emptor wrote: »

Nice confounding of facts.

Truck drivers = essential.

Stag party does not.

An empty hotel is not a concentration camp.

Maybe if you re-read my comment again, you will see that most of it is dedicated to the what the phrases "all incomers" and "full quarantine" "mean - whether they're literal (including truck drivers and other essential workers), not not literal (just your tourists, visitors, Irish citizens returning home, etc.). The OP has not made the distinction.

You'll also notice I didn't use the term "concentration camp", which has a very specific meaning that you are fully aware of, and so it is totally disingenuous to claim that i'm implying it when I'm not.

So touché on the nice confounding of facts.

Gregor Samsa · 18-05-2020 01:44PM

Christy42 wrote: »

It exists to improve trade between countries and to encourage them not to go to war with each other. I agree that an EU wide health policy at least for international health issues but that is not what it is for.

However that would need to be agreed up front. With no particular legislation it will be a massive overstep for the EU to assume that role.

That's actually not the case at all.

There's an entire branch of the EU dedicated to Humanitarian Aid that could have been used:

https://ec.europa.eu/echo/what/humanitarian-aid/eu-aid-volunteers_en

There's also an entire framework already in place that is supposed to help in situations of cross border health crisis:

https://ec.europa.eu/health/preparedness_response/overview_en

The EU could have, and should have, done much more, and already have the agreements and tools to act.

Beasty · 18-05-2020 01:47PM

Stheno wrote: »

So in my example would you ring woodies or a help group to have them help you get the bulb?

I personally would order from Amazon if I could not leave the house (or indeed get someone to pick up at Tesco as part of a general shop). Equally I'm sure if someone called the local hardware shop someone would probably pop round with something like that if it's explained they cannot leave their home for shopping

GazzaL · 18-05-2020 01:51PM

I've spoken with about 20 different business owners this morning and nobody has a clue about who is or isn't allowed to open. The conversation has generally gone like "Business X is open by appointment. Business Y is fully open. I don't know if they're allowed open or if I'm allowed to open, but if they're open then I'll have to open.". There is a HUGE amount of confusion out there.

caveat emptor · 18-05-2020 01:53PM

A lot of Reductio Ad Absurdum going on here.

Here's an idea. Lets implement proven public health strategies that enable us to restart the economy sooner rather than later.
No need to put truck drivers in quarantine or cause another famine.

City breakers can seriously fvck off for a while. If someone is stupid enough to want to pop over for a break then they are a liability anyway.

Unfortunately Ryanair's business model will need redoing. **** happens during a pandemic.

Gregor Samsa · 18-05-2020 01:54PM

GazzaL wrote: »

I've spoken with about 20 different business owners this morning and nobody has a clue about who is or isn't allowed to open. The conversation has generally gone like "Business X is open by appointment. Business Y is fully open. I don't know if they're allowed open or if I'm allowed to open, but if they're open then I'll have to open.".

Have they read this list, and determined if they're on it or not? If they can justifiably claim to be on it, they can open. If they can't, they can't.

https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/3736c7-government-approves-moving-to-phase-1-of-easing-covid-19-restriction/#list-of-retailers-that-can-open-on-18-may

What kind of businesses are they that they're unsure?

caveat emptor · 18-05-2020 01:55PM

Gregor Samsa wrote: »

Maybe if you re-read my comment again, you will see that most of it is dedicated to the what the phrases "all incomers" and "full quarantine" "mean - whether they're literal (including truck drivers and other essential workers), not not literal (just your tourists, visitors, Irish citizens returning home, etc.). The OP has not made the distinction.

You'll also notice I didn't use the term "concentration camp", which has a very specific meaning that you are fully aware of, and so it is totally disingenuous to claim that i'm implying it when I'm not.

So touché on the nice confounding of facts.

Nice hair splitting.
I too am morally out raged at the word concentration camp.
If you could see me now. I'm not happy at all. We should ban the word.

is_that_so · 18-05-2020 01:56PM

GazzaL wrote: »

I've spoken with about 20 different business owners this morning and nobody has a clue about who is or isn't allowed to open. The conversation has generally gone like "Business X is open by appointment. Business Y is fully open. I don't know if they're allowed open or if I'm allowed to open, but if they're open then I'll have to open.". There is a HUGE amount of confusion out there.

Not knowing WTF is going on really is a modern mental state. If they can talk to you they can talk to someone who can tell them!

Gregor Samsa · 18-05-2020 01:57PM

caveat emptor wrote: »

Nice hair splitting.
I too am morally out raged at the word concentration camp.
If you could see me now. I'm not happy at all. We should ban the word.

Well then, I suggest you follow my example and don't use it without necessity.

And expressing oneself with clarity is not hair splitting.

18-05-2020 01:58PM

growleaves wrote: »

The NYC police has thrown in the towel as regards enforcing social distancing after the public objected to heavy-handed arrests and the police union and its members became totally demoralised.

"New normal" not looking so viable. Maybe something a bit more practical than separating families and ending human interactions is called for?

There certainly won’t be a ‘new normal’ of social distancing. We, collectively, will just not do it beyond a very short window. The only social distancing that can be achieved is where there is actual physical infrastructure or specific requirements (eg table service only in pubs, no crowds at the football etc). Anything in our personal life and space, with friends and family, will very soon be back to how it always was

Beasty · 18-05-2020 02:00PM

froog wrote: »

if an asteroid comes for us,

think we'd need another forum for that....

caveat emptor · 18-05-2020 02:05PM

Gregor Samsa wrote: »

Well then, I suggest you follow my example and don't use it without necessity.

And expressing oneself with clarity is not hair splitting.

So when you said "a big camp". Were you referring to a holiday camp like butlins or mosney? We've put people in places before albeit under different circumstances.

I'd say take it on step further and clarify what type of "big camp" you are referring too before insisting somebody is misrepresenting your point for listing one of the possible "big camp"s you may or may not be referring too.

In my experience their are no good "big camps" in these scenarios.

And who decides necessity? The thought police. You shouldn't watch Schindler's list or read the boy in striped pyjamas. Spoiler alert. They contain 'concentration camps'. Is that necessary?

Beasty · 18-05-2020 02:06PM

Gregor Samsa wrote: »

I have to say, I'm generally a big supporter of the EU, but I think that the lack of unity shown by it in this crisis, and the lack of solidarity shown particularly to Italy at an EU level, is both disappointing and unnerving. It's somewhat ironic that Eurosceptics will use this to bash the EU, when they also would have opposed any centralised or unified effort to confront the crisis, but I do think it's a legitimate failing of the institution.

The problem for the EU is there is no consistent approach across the Union, with bordering countries taking measures designed for their own "market" rather than the "Common" one

You would have thought the EU was set up to manage this sort of thing, but you would have thought the (United) States of America would also. They, along with EU members and indeed pretty much every country affected, have been taking an approach of looking after their own citizens first (and understandably so). A central coordinated approach would, in my opinion, have resulted in better outcomes overall, but unfortunately there are always losers as well as winners in such a situation.

Gregor Samsa · 18-05-2020 02:08PM

caveat emptor wrote: »

So when you said "a big camp". Were you referring to a holiday camp like butlins or mosney? We've put people in places before albeit under different circumstances.

Yeah, like the Direct Provision center in the former Mosney. And just to clarify, it wasn't my suggestion, it was a question as to what people meant by quarantine, because it means a lot of different things to different people. I was differentiating between two examples: a centralised enforced quarantine, and a distributed honor based one.

It also wasn't a reply to you, it was a reply to specifically to eagle eye, to get clarity on what they meant by their frequent calls for "full quarantine" in this thread.

hmmm · 18-05-2020 02:11PM

Beasty wrote: »

The problem for the EU is there is no consistent approach across the Union, with bordering countries taking measures designed for their own "market" rather than the "Common" one

You would have thought the EU was set up to manage this sort of thing, but you would have thought the (United) States of America would also. They, along with EU members and indeed pretty much every country affected, have been taking an approach of looking after their own citizens first (and understandably so).

It kind of confounds the idea that this is a "European Megastate" though doesn't it? It'd be a ****e kind of mega-state that allowed everyone to do their own thing.

The EU is set up as a sort of co-ordinating body, but in reality it lacks an awful lot of powers - and this crisis has made that very clear as countries took different actions. Some of the people who have previously criticised the EU for being too powerful, now seem to be giving out that it isn't powerful enough.

Covid19 Part XVII-24,841 in ROI (1,639 deaths) 4,679 in NI (518 deaths)(28/05)Read OP

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