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Relaxation of Restrictions, Part III - **Read OP for Mod Warnings**

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  • #3332
    wakka12
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,786 ✭✭✭wakka12


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Tanya who now?

    It’s a proven fact that richer countries have a higher life expectancy. It’s a well known fact that recession is terrible for a country.

    GDP drops, deaths go up.

    You are saying the data gathered from multiple countries that associates economic recession with decreased mortality rates is wrong? Based on what?
    In general we may conclude that the populations of most developed and developing nations enjoy improved health and increasing wealth over time. Following this logic and assuming there is some positive correlation between wealth and longevity, a recession would then worsen mortality rates particularly if people lose their jobs as a result of the recession.

    However, data charting the percentage change in per capita GDP and life expectancy in the U.S. for the years 1910 to 2012 reveals a clear trend of increasing life expectancy by negative change in GDP. Counter-intuitively it seems mortality may actually fall during economic downturns.
    Lockdown deaths remain at zero and will never cause any massive inccease in deaths that you have wrongly theorised, sorry that the facts don't fit your narrative. Recessions are terrible for a country, but you can omit the fake news about recessions causing huge deaths from your rants


  • #3333
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    bettyoleary wrote: »
    No its not true that the majority of the work force have serious conditions such as the ones you describe, But, many people 50 upwards do have conditions that would have a significant impact on their outcome if they contracted Covid. I was just pointing out that 50 -65 make up a substantial and very important part of the work force in Ireland. So its not just the elderly and very vunerable that the lockdown is protecting.

    And again, I’m not understanding the relevance when I said a few times over now that anyone elderly or with an underlying condition should be supported in cocooning indefinitely if they so wish.
    I don’t support the whole country being shut down as collateral damage when we can very easily protect the most vulnerable and let others go back to work.

    Lockdown is harming more people than it’s protecting at this stage.


  • #3334
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 8,647 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    SusieBlue wrote: »
    And again, I’m not understanding the relevance when I said a few times over now that anyone elderly or with an underlying condition should be supported in cocooning indefinitely if they so wish.
    I don’t support the whole country being shut down as collateral damage when we can very easily protect the most vulnerable and let others go back to work. All in the cause of relaxation.

    Lockdown is harming more people than it’s protecting at this stage.

    How does a patient receiving active cancer treatment cocoon? Riddle me that one, breaker of CUH social media policy. That would a disciplinary matter for whoever leaked that screenshot. God forbid the EXIF data was identifiable off the phone that it was taken off. Terrible really.


  • #3335
    bettyoleary
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 400 ✭✭bettyoleary


    SusieBlue wrote: »
    And again, I’m not understanding the relevance when I said a few times over now that anyone elderly or with an underlying condition should be supported in cocooning indefinitely if they so wish.
    I don’t support the whole country being shut down as collateral damage when we can very easily protect the most vulnerable and let others go back to work.

    Lockdown is harming more people than it’s protecting at this stage.
    In an ideal scenario I would agree with you but its not as simple as that. You cant just day Ok everyone who is at risk cocoon. Children and young people can't run the country.


  • #3336
    FintanMcluskey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,621 ✭✭✭FintanMcluskey


    deisedevil wrote: »
    Sweden themselves are admitting they aren't doing very well right now but they are pinning their hopes on their second wave not being quiet as bad as other countries. They're willing to sacrifice vulnerable people. Should we be as cold here too? I meant that's what it comes down to isn't it really? And our ICU capacity is nothing like what they have so we'd have struggled badly.

    Sweden havent seen 200k dead.

    It was predictions like so that caused restrictions to be implemented in Ireland. That was the justification


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  • #3337
    FintanMcluskey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,621 ✭✭✭FintanMcluskey


    bettyoleary wrote: »
    In an ideal scenario I would agree with you but its not as simple as that. You cant just day Ok everyone who is at risk cocoon. Children and young people can't run the country.

    Well the alternative is cocoon everyone until the end of time


  • #3338
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    How does a patient receiving active cancer treatment cocoon? Riddle me that one, breaker of CUH social media policy. That would a disciplinary matter for whoever leaked that screenshot. God forbid the EXIF data gave the phone data that it was taken off. Terrible really.

    Is that your lame attempt of trying to intimidate me?
    That’s actually quite pathetic on your part.

    That picture was from Twitter & it was also in the Lockdown Ireland group on FB. Have a look yourself and I’m sure you’ll find it. I did make sure to confirm it’s legitimacy before posting though.

    I’m sure the HSE will be delighted to hear that you’re threatening people on the internet with disciplinary proceedings on their behalf.


  • #3339
    deisedevil
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,252 ✭✭✭deisedevil


    FintanMcluskey wrote: »
    Sweden havent seen 200k dead.

    It was predictions like so that caused restrictions to be implemented in Ireland. That was the justification

    Tis a shame we didn't just throw caution to the wind and see how we would get on so I suppose. I'm glad we didn't anyways. I'm delighted people of your mindset won't get your way.


  • #3340
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 8,647 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    SusieBlue wrote: »
    Is that your lame attempt of trying to intimidate me?
    That’s actually quite pathetic on your part.

    That picture was from Twitter & it was also in the Lockdown Ireland group on FB. Have a look yourself and I’m sure you’ll find it. I did make sure to confirm it’s legitimacy before posting though.

    I’m sure the HSE will be delighted to hear that you’re threatening people on the internet with disciplinary proceedings on their behalf.

    I didn't threaten you, old chum. Confirmed legitimaticy off Twitter. Outstanding stuff. Quite the Sherlock, aren't we?

    By the way, seeming as you have all the answers. How does one cocoon if receiving active cancer treatment?


  • #3341
    ceadaoin.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,623 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    MadYaker wrote: »
    Jaysus in the trump thread you’re saying everything will be grand. Which is it?

    Can you put a number on how many deaths that will lead to? We have to base our actions on facts and statistics not feelings unfortunately.

    Stop lying.. Im saying in the trump thread that the US isn't going to descend into civil war and won't be "finished" like some are saying (or hoping really). I didn't mention anything about the recession and mass unemployment that is obviously coming.


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  • #3342
    deisedevil
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,252 ✭✭✭deisedevil


    SusieBlue wrote: »
    Most shops & services besides supermarkets weren’t deemed necessary on the 15th of March, when businesses started closing.
    It made sense to close them because we didn’t see them as essential. But it’s now 9 weeks later and we need them now.

    By August 10th, 21 weeks will have passed.
    That’s 21 weeks, or over 5 months, that some people are going to be out of work and that we as a society are without a service that we previously relied upon.

    Your going to die without homewares and the like are you? Do you understand what the word need really means? We need air, we need water, we need food. We don't need Tupperware boxes and pillow covers.


  • #3343
    ceadaoin.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,623 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    How does a patient receiving active cancer treatment cocoon? Riddle me that one, breaker of CUH social media policy. That would a disciplinary matter for whoever leaked that screenshot. God forbid the EXIF data was identifiable off the phone that it was taken off. Terrible really.

    wow. Creepy as ****. Its getting a bit weird in here tbh


  • #3344
    growleaves
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,978 ✭✭✭growleaves


    deisedevil wrote: »
    Tis a shame we didn't just throw caution to the wind and see how we would get on so I suppose. I'm glad we didn't anyways. I'm delighted people of your mindset won't get your way.

    The policy we copied off other European countries has no precedent so the claim that it is more cautious than e.g. Swedish strategy makes no sense. The caution in this case is assumed, and covid got into nursing homes and wreaked damage. We're involved in high-stakes gambling, only we're telling ourselves we're playing it safe. At the same time we're not so cautious that we'll close our borders or refuse to let in 189 Bulgarian seasonal workers.


  • #3345
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 4,727 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    wakka12 wrote: »
    You are saying the data gathered from multiple countries that associates economic recession with decreased mortality rates is wrong? Based on what?


    Lockdown deaths remain at zero and will never cause any massive inccease in deaths that you have wrongly theorised, sorry that the facts don't fit your narrative. Recessions are terrible for a country, but you can omit the fake news about recessions causing huge deaths from your rants

    That’s extremely ridiculous and messed up logic.
    So less people die during a recession for several reasons. One of those is that many people flee the country and go to somewhere that is booming. Less people die because less people are working. For example, the roads are quieter and no accidents take place at work...

    Overall though, life expectancy drops in a poorer country.


  • #3346
    FintanMcluskey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,621 ✭✭✭FintanMcluskey


    deisedevil wrote: »
    Tis a shame we didn't just throw caution to the wind and see how we would get on so I suppose. I'm glad we didn't anyways. I'm delighted people of your mindset won't get your way.

    Thats a poor argument.

    This isnt some extended holiday we are on. We are the most restrictive nation in Europe with up to 300k long term unemployed.
    But your glad my "mindset" wont get its way. Ok


  • #3347
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    I didn't threaten you, old chum. Confirmed legitimaticy off Twitter. Outstanding stuff. Quite the Sherlock, aren't we?

    By the way, seeming as you have all the answers. How does one cocoon if receiving active cancer treatment?

    You know it’s legit, that’s why you just threatened me with talk of disciplinary procedures in the HSE lol.

    I’m not entertaining it, attempting to intimidate someone for posting information freely found on the internet is beyond creepy and now you’re being condescending too, ‘old chum’.
    I shouldn’t have to tell you that’s not cool, regardless of whether our opinions differ or not.


  • #3348
    FintanMcluskey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,621 ✭✭✭FintanMcluskey


    deisedevil wrote: »
    Your going to die without homewares and the like are you? Do you understand what the word need really means? We need air, we need water, we need food. We don't need Tupperware boxes and pillow covers.

    I assume you are a skilled hunter and rely on none of the modern supports to sustain life.

    Have you some sort of telekinesis to post on boards? I assume its not data or WIFI you are using


  • #3349
    deisedevil
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,252 ✭✭✭deisedevil


    growleaves wrote: »
    The policy we copied off other European countries has no precedent so the claim that it is more cautious than e.g. Swedish strategy makes no sense. The caution in this case is assumed, and covid got into nursing homes and wreaked damage. We're involved in high-stakes gambling, only we're telling ourselves we're playing it safe. At the same time we're not so cautious that we'll close our borders or refuse to let in 189 Bulgarian seasonal workers.

    Yes and to my mind we weren't cautious enough at all and should have done more early on. People are banging on about Sweden. Who cares about Sweden, how about the countries that put in extreme restrictions as early as possible. Just look at what Taiwan did. Up on top of China and have a look at their response and results. That's what I would have wanted for this country.


  • #3350
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 8,647 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    SusieBlue wrote: »
    You know it’s legit, that’s why you just threatened me with talk of disciplinary procedures in the HSE lol.

    I’m not entertaining it, attempting to intimidate someone for posting information freely found on the internet is beyond creepy and now you’re being condescending too, ‘old chum’.
    I shouldn’t have to tell you that’s not cool, regardless of whether our opinions differ or not.

    How does one cocoon whilst actively receiving chemo?


  • #3351
    deisedevil
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,252 ✭✭✭deisedevil


    FintanMcluskey wrote: »
    I assume you are a skilled hunter and rely on none of the modern supports to sustain life.

    Have you some sort of telekinesis to post on boards? I assume its not data or WIFI you are using

    Your being over dramatic. We don't NEED most of the shops that are closed. I've been doing plenty of online buying and getting shopping delivered. Don't have to step inside the door of another building.


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  • #3352
    FintanMcluskey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,621 ✭✭✭FintanMcluskey


    deisedevil wrote: »
    People are banging on about Sweden. Who cares about Sweden

    What exactly does this mean?

    You have no basis for argument so "who cares".

    Whatever like I dont even care


  • #3353
    deisedevil
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,252 ✭✭✭deisedevil


    FintanMcluskey wrote: »
    Thats a poor argument.

    This isnt some extended holiday we are on. We are the most restrictive nation in Europe with up to 300k long term unemployed.
    But your glad my "mindset" wont get its way. Ok

    So what if we are. We've made better decisions than other countries in Europe in the past too. Who brought in smoking bans before any country in the world and we had the same kind of gobshítes who don't agree with the current restrictions crying over that too.


  • #3354
    deisedevil
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,252 ✭✭✭deisedevil


    FintanMcluskey wrote: »
    What exactly does this mean?

    You have no basis for argument so "who cares".

    Whatever like I dont even care

    Are you deliberately misunderstanding or was I just very unclear?

    My point was that instead of focussing on Sweden why not look at countries that brought in extreme restrictions very early and look at where they are now. Go on. Tell me Sweden are managing better than Taiwan.


  • #3355
    uli84
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,749 ✭✭✭uli84


    deisedevil wrote: »
    Your going to die without homewares and the like are you? Do you understand what the word need really means? We need air, we need water, we need food. We don't need Tupperware boxes and pillow covers.

    Well the situation is good enough to allow for not having to limit myself only to the stuff I need, “need” is a very subjective word by the way.

    the “need” nonsense might have been acceptable a month ago


  • #3356
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    How does one cocoon whilst actively receiving chemo?

    Not entertaining it, buddy. If you wanted to talk rationally, all you had to do was ask instead of doing what you did.

    Presumably your next move will be to shoot down any and all suggestions I come up with, because you’re a doctor and you’re superior to me.
    And you’ll use this as ammunition to belittle & dismiss other posts I’ve previously made on the topic.
    I’m not playing your game, I don’t engage with nasty underhanded tactics like that.


  • #3357
    wakka12
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,786 ✭✭✭wakka12


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    That’s extremely ridiculous and messed up logic.
    So less people die during a recession for several reasons. One of those is that many people flee the country and go to somewhere that is booming. Less people die because less people are working. For example, the roads are quieter and no accidents take place at work...

    Overall though, life expectancy drops in a poorer country.

    It's not my logic , it's what several studies determined . Population continued to grow throughout the Great Recession in the USA where the study is mostly focused on so I don't see how emigration (which had no net loss effect )would lower it unless a sick person is more likely to emigrate for some unknown reason. So yes it drops, as I said it can now be omitted from the scare mongering tactics as it is untrue


  • #3358
    ceadaoin.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,623 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    deisedevil wrote: »
    Your being over dramatic. We don't NEED most of the shops that are closed. I've been doing plenty of online buying and getting shopping delivered. Don't have to step inside the door of another building.

    Yeah but are you going to die without ordering stuff online? Youre happy to put others at risk to get your deliveries . If you aren't just ordering the bare minimum needed to survive then shame on you. After all, all we need is air, water and food right? Isn't that what you said? Tut tut.


  • #3359
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 8,647 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    SusieBlue wrote: »
    Not entertaining it, buddy. If you wanted to talk rationally, all you had to do was ask instead of doing what you did.

    Presumably your next move will be to shoot down any and all suggestions I come up with, because you’re a doctor and you’re superior to me.
    And you’ll use this as ammunition to belittle & dismiss other posts I’ve previously made on the topic.
    I’m not playing your game, I don’t engage with nasty underhanded tactics like that.

    I'm not a doctor but am offering a likely scenario. How would this patient be dealt with or do we just leave them to the wolves? Forgive my earlier baited message.


  • #3360
    bettyoleary
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 400 ✭✭bettyoleary


    FintanMcluskey wrote: »
    Well the alternative is cocoon everyone until the end of time
    It feels like that at the moment. But, I suppose we will just have to try and get the r rate as low as we can by following the plan and hope that it will get there quicker than the dates set and we can ease restrictions accordingly. Then I think people will just have to do a self risk assessment and act to protect themselves and their families as best they can whilst continuing on. But, I really think we will have a vaccine sooner rather than later. If not treatments will improve the more we learn about the virus. It seems like a lifetime since March but its only been 8 weeks.


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  • #3361
    deisedevil
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,252 ✭✭✭deisedevil


    ceadaoin. wrote: »
    Yeah but are you going to die without ordering stuff online? Youre happy to put others at risk to get your deliveries . If you aren't just ordering the bare minimum needed to survive then shame on you. Tut tut.

    There's far less risk ordering from a warehouse than letting people loose in clothes and homewares shops etc. That's the whole point.


This discussion has been closed.
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