Public service pay cut?

mariaalice · 14-05-2020 11:16am #1

Will, there be public service pay cuts and cuts to services themselves after COVID 19? interesting discussion on RTE 1 radio about this, on the other hand, the likes of David McWilliams take a different view on how we can pay for this.

Wheety · 14-05-2020 11:20am

I think there will be reductions. Certainly, I imagine, the pay restoration due in October, will not go ahead.

nigeldaniel · 14-05-2020 11:23am

Well if they clamped down on expenses I would not see a need for pay cuts.

addaword · 14-05-2020 11:23am

Of course there will be pay cuts, the country is living way beyond its means and is spending much more than it is taking in. It is unsustainable.

FVP3 · 14-05-2020 11:23am

We definitely need to take more money out of the economy as this crisis unfolds.

blanch152 · 14-05-2020 11:25am

Is it really possible to cut the pay of nurses in the aftermath of Covid-19?

Yes, I think the increase due in October will be deferred, possibly with a promise of back-payment when the finances allow, and the next deal will not be as generous as previously expected. However, there are many public servants whose rate of pay is still below the 2008 rate - the scope for cuts is therefore limited.

utyh2ikcq9z76b · 14-05-2020 11:27am

Not a hope, cutting nurses pay during this would create a political storm

Summer2020 · 14-05-2020 11:31am

The pay increase due in October is tied to a productivity deal , a lot of which has already been implemented in the PS. So if it doesn’t go ahead then the govt have broken their side of the deal, expect a lot of the productivity improvements to be rolled back.

saabsaab · 14-05-2020 11:36am

FVP3 wrote: »

We definitely need to take more money out of the economy as this crisis unfolds.

True, just what is needed! No money to any sector or business bound to improve the economic recovery.

Fred Cryton · 14-05-2020 11:37am

No no, silly. This is Ireland. In Ireland, we don't "cut" anything. We instead identify the narrow band of hard working middle income private sector higher rate taxpayers (around 20% of the population), and we simply increase their taxes yet again. More welfare and more public sector pay, sure why not? Wouldn't it be cruel not to? Just identify those people, tax them once again, and then pat yourself on the back for reducing "inequality".

mariaalice · 14-05-2020 11:42am

FVP3 wrote: »

We definitely need to take more money out of the economy as this crisis unfolds.

The former government department person on the RTE 1 radio was keen on keeping infrastructure spending going.

mariaalice · 14-05-2020 11:44am

Damian Faint Carp wrote: »

Not a hope, cutting nurses pay during this would create a political storm

What is the obsession with nurses? there are hundreds of thousands of other public servants.

Fann Linn · 14-05-2020 11:46am

I heard some FFailer earlier this week saying we should get a bonus.
Bring it on. Thanks.

mlem123 · 14-05-2020 11:58am

I hope not.. I'm a recent entrant in the HSE but have been redeployed for months, now working harder than I ever have anywhere else I've worked and the idea of being rewarded with a pay cut would be upsetting to say the least

ShareShare · 14-05-2020 12:00pm

mariaalice wrote: »

What is the obsession with nurses? there are hundreds of thousands of other public servants.

Its a pandemic. They're risking their lives to help save us.
When its not a pandemic, when you are at your weakest.. they help you.

This is why we care about them.

mariaalice · 14-05-2020 12:04pm

mlem123 wrote: »

I hope not.. I'm a recent entrant in the HSE but have been redeployed for months, now working harder than I ever have anywhere else I've worked and the idea of being rewarded with a pay cut would be upsetting to say the least

For what its worth I don't think there will be pay cuts as such, but promotion will be paused and the like, soft pay cuts, there will be a lot of recruitment but it all all be an entry-level we have an expanding population and need services health care, education has to be provided.

Infrastructure spending will go ahead with some tweeks as it a stimulus ot the economy.

Mad_maxx · 14-05-2020 12:04pm

mariaalice wrote: »

Will, there be public service pay cuts and cuts to services themselves after COVID 19? interesting discussion on RTE 1 radio about this, on the other hand, the likes of David McWilliams take a different view on how we can pay for this.

no there will not , FG are the only party who would even consider such a thing and they are led by a spineless cynic obsessed with spin

Mad_maxx · 14-05-2020 12:06pm

mariaalice wrote: »

What is the obsession with nurses? there are hundreds of thousands of other public servants.

irish people love nurses , sure everyone knows that

mariaalice · 14-05-2020 12:06pm

ShareShare wrote: »

Its a pandemic. They're risking their lives to help save us.
When its not a pandemic, when you are at your weakest.. they help you.

This is why we care about them.

I know that what i meant was why the obsession with mentioning them in every discussion on HSE public service pay when there are hundreds of thousands of other public servants.

ted1 · 14-05-2020 12:13pm

The thing with public service pay is that those on low incomes shouldn’t be cut. While those on higher incomes are paying 52% tax which goes back to the employer.

So really lots of times it’s just optics.

Take a 2,000 pay cut
State that’s 1040 euro
Employee gets 960.
Employee pays 23% VAT on say 600 worth of goods
So another 138 goes back to employer
Say other 360 goes on services at 13% tax, so another 48 euro.

Out of 2,000. The state are taking back 1,226 anyway. But the 2,000 is supporting business and jobs. So really the state would achieve nothing by pay cuts

mariaalice · 14-05-2020 12:17pm

ted1 wrote: »

The thing with public service pay is that those on low incomes shouldn’t be cut. While those on higher incomes are paying 52% tax which goes back to the employer.

Do really lots of times it’s just optics.

Take a 2,000 pay cut
State that’s 1040 euro
Employee gets 960.
Employee pays 23% VAT on say 600 worth if good
So another 138 goes back to employer
Say other 360 goes on services at 13% tax, so another 48 euro.

Out of 2,000. The state are taking back 1,226 anyway. But the 2,000 is supporting business and jobs. So really the state would achieve nothing by pay cuts

I do not think there will be pay cuts but there will be other ways of cutting spending or pausing spending, there are lots of ways less spending can be spun so its dose does not look like less spending.

fly_agaric · 14-05-2020 12:20pm

mariaalice wrote: »

Will, there be public service pay cuts and cuts to services themselves after COVID 19? interesting discussion on RTE 1 radio about this, on the other hand, the likes of David McWilliams take a different view on how we can pay for this.

I expect so. Even with massive borrowing by the state there will still be another "FEMPI" type cut for them all next year IMO. Could get rocky industrial relations wise but if we still have some massive % of unemployment across the economy by that time, similar to financial crisis will be hard to object (particularly for those further up the payscales)

The borrowing will (hopefully) mean they won't have an indiscriminate hiring freeze like 2008-2014 or so, or slash the health budget (or other public sector budgets) to ribbons when it'll probably be a very bad time to do that.

Bicyclette · 14-05-2020 12:24pm

There are a lot of public sector employees currently doing a 37.5 hour week at the moment for roughly €150 more than the Covid payment - e.g. 500 pw or less vs €350 pw. By the time you take off deductions, there isn't a significant difference. Its €4 per hour more gross.

These people are working in places such as Social Welfare and Revenue processing payments, doing contact tracing, and other things that are keeping this country going.

Take for example someone on the bottom of the Clerical Officer Scale. They earn €461 per week gross. Just €111 more than the Covid Payment. Over 37.5 hours, that works out at €2.97 per hour more. GROSS. How could you possibly cut those wages?

There is a perception that the public service are very well paid. The Post 2011 entrants are not.
Link to the actual pay rates here: https://www.forsa.ie/about-forsa/divisions/civil-service/civil-service-pay-scales/

Remember most people in the public service are at Clerical Officer Grade.

Mad_maxx · 14-05-2020 12:27pm

Bicyclette wrote: »

There are a lot of public sector employees currently doing a 37.5 hour week at the moment for roughly €150 more than the Covid payment - e.g. 500 pw or less vs €350 pw. By the time you take off deductions, there isn't a significant difference. Its €4 per hour more gross.

These people are working in places such as Social Welfare and Revenue processing payments, doing contact tracing, and other things that are keeping this country going.

Take for example someone on the bottom of the Clerical Officer Scale. They earn €461 per week gross. Just €111 more than the Covid Payment. Over 37.5 hours, that works out at €2.97 per hour more. GROSS. How could you possibly cut those wages?

There is a perception that the public service are very well paid. The Post 2011 entrants are not.
Link to the actual pay rates here: https://www.forsa.ie/about-forsa/divisions/civil-service/civil-service-pay-scales/

Remember most people in the public service are at Clerical Officer Grade.

well thats good to know ( that they werent - arent earning much ) , the vast majority of the clerical officers ive dealt with down the years , i wouldnt trust them to run to the shops to get me a newspaper , they were that incompetent

mariaalice · 14-05-2020 12:27pm

Bicyclette wrote: »

There are a lot of public sector employees currently doing a 37.5 hour week at the moment for roughly €150 more than the Covid payment - e.g. 500 pw or less vs €350 pw. By the time you take off deductions, there isn't a significant difference. Its €4 per hour more gross.

These people are working in places such as Social Welfare and Revenue processing payments, doing contact tracing, and other things that are keeping this country going.

Take for example someone on the bottom of the Clerical Officer Scale. They earn €461 per week gross. Just €111 more than the Covid Payment. Over 37.5 hours, that works out at €2.97 per hour more. GROSS. How could you possibly cut those wages?

There is a perception that the public service are very well paid. The Post 2011 entrants are not.
Link to the actual pay rates here: https://www.forsa.ie/about-forsa/divisions/civil-service/civil-service-pay-scales/

Remember most people in the public service are at Clerical Officer Grade.

The COVID payment has nothing to do with it, its a short term emergency payment. a very odd view to take, the lower end of the basic clerical salary is poor alright.

Mad_maxx · 14-05-2020 12:33pm

mariaalice wrote: »

The COVID payment has nothing to do with it, its a short term emergency payment. a very odd view to take, the lower end of the basic clerical salary is poor alright.

its better than what most receptionists or low level secretaries do in the private sector and they dont have a guarenteed pension

differences between public and private are widest at the lower end

august12 · 14-05-2020 12:35pm

Mad_maxx wrote: »

well thats good to know ( that they werent - arent earning much ) , the vast majority of the clerical officers ive dealt with down the years , i wouldnt trust them to run to the shops to get me a newspaper , they were that incompetent

You could also apply that logic to any grade in the public sector, difference being, the obscene levels of income paid to incompetent senior staff who's best career performance is a 30 minute interview. That's one of the major problems with promotion in the public sector. And won't be changed anytime soon.

mariaalice · 14-05-2020 12:37pm

Mad_maxx wrote: »

its better than what most receptionists or low level secretaries do in the private sector and they dont have a guarenteed pension

differences between public and private are widest at the lower end

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Not really.

VillageIdiot71 · 14-05-2020 12:39pm

Bicyclette wrote: »

Take for example someone on the bottom of the Clerical Officer Scale. They earn €461 per week gross. Just €111 more than the Covid Payment. Over 37.5 hours, that works out at €2.97 per hour more. GROSS. How could you possibly cut those wages?

There is a perception that the public service are very well paid. The Post 2011 entrants are not.
Link to the actual pay rates here: https://www.forsa.ie/about-forsa/divisions/civil-service/civil-service-pay-scales/

Remember most people in the public service are at Clerical Officer Grade.

And the Clerical Officer scale goes up to €40,000 p.a., which is double the Covid payment. Quite good money.

On nurses, at some stage we've got to get over it. The honest ones frankly admit that they're having the easiest couple of months they've ever had, as the hospitals are empty.

Low paid care assistants in nursing homes are under pressure, and genuinely in the so called front line. But they're mostly in the private sector. Ditto supermarket workers, who've had much more exposure to the general population than nurses, frequently for nothing more than minimum wage.

FVP3 · 14-05-2020 12:42pm

Fred Cryton wrote: »

No no, silly. This is Ireland. In Ireland, we don't "cut" anything. We instead identify the narrow band of hard working middle income private sector higher rate taxpayers (around 20% of the population), and we simply increase their taxes yet again. More welfare and more public sector pay, sure why not? Wouldn't it be cruel not to? Just identify those people, tax them once again, and then pat yourself on the back for reducing "inequality".

Could tax the rich but in the absence of that it's either tax the middle income groups, or let the deficit increase. Maybe grab a few of those sweet eurobonds.

noodler · 14-05-2020 12:43pm

ShareShare wrote: »

Its a pandemic. They're risking their lives to help save us.
When its not a pandemic, when you are at your weakest.. they help you.

This is why we care about them.

Alot of hospitals are empty.

There was a pay deal for nurses last year, on top of the general PS pay deal and increments.

I also think we shouldn't lump all nurses in with this those on ICU and COVID wards.

Those nurses should get a grant.

Obviously difficult to see the 2% in October at the very least.

mariaalice · 14-05-2020 12:45pm

VillageIdiot71 wrote: »

And the Clerical Officer scale goes up to €40,000 p.a., which is double the Covid payment. Quite good money.

On nurses, at some stage we've got to get over it. The honest ones frankly admit that they're having the easiest couple of months they've ever had, as the hospitals are empty.

Low paid care assistants in nursing homes are under pressure, and genuinely in the so called front line. But they're mostly in the private sector. Ditto supermarket workers, who've had much more exposure to the general population than nurses, frequently for nothing more than minimum wage.

Luckly this has not happened here
https://www.thejournal.ie/pregnant-nurse-uk-5075351-Apr2020/

Again there are hundreds of thousands of public servants who are not nurses, again can some explain why they are referenced so much in discussion on public pay?

mariaalice · 14-05-2020 12:48pm

Also in what way are low paid health care assistants or retail workers relevant to public service pay?

FVP3 · 14-05-2020 12:50pm

mariaalice wrote: »

Luckly this has not happened here
https://www.thejournal.ie/pregnant-nurse-uk-5075351-Apr2020/

Again there are hundreds of thousands of public servants who are not nurses, again can some explain why they are referenced so much in discussion on public pay?

Because pay is generally linked across the public sector, although the nurses did get a deal recently outside that.

mariaalice wrote: »

Also in what way are low paid health care assistants or retail workers relevant to public service pay?

Well the guy who posted that made the explanation, he said they were frontline during the crisis.

Creol1 · 14-05-2020 12:52pm

addaword wrote: »

Of course there will be pay cuts, the country is living way beyond its means and is spending much more than it is taking in. It is unsustainable.

Is that really you, Charles J.?

fly_agaric · 14-05-2020 12:54pm

mariaalice wrote: »

Luckly this has not happened here
https://www.thejournal.ie/pregnant-nurse-uk-5075351-Apr2020/

Not sure what the point of that was/relevance to discussion?

They should be grateful for their coming paycut & rejoice they aren't dropping like flies of Covid 19 on the job they are (no doubt) lucky to have!

mariaalice · 14-05-2020 12:55pm

FVP3 wrote: »

Because pay is generally linked across the public sector, although the nurses did get a deal recently outside that.

Well the guy who posted that made the explanation, he said they were frontline during the crisis.

That is a point, if nurses get some sentimental based pay rise it will raise the pay of every publics servent, but I doubt if any public servant will getting much of a pay rise soon.

mariaalice · 14-05-2020 12:57pm

fly_agaric wrote: »

Not sure what the point of that was/relevance to discussion?

They should be grateful for their coming paycut & rejoice they aren't dropping like flies of Covid 19 on the job they are (no doubt) lucky to have!

Absolutely not, its a general discussion on publice services pay nothing to do with nurses pre say.

My daughter is a nurse.

VillageIdiot71 · 14-05-2020 12:59pm

mariaalice wrote: »

Again there are hundreds of thousands of public servants who are not nurses, again can some explain why they are referenced so much in discussion on public pay?

A number of reasons.

They are one of the largest groups of public servants. There's 40,000 nurses. By comparison, there's only 14,000 Gardai

Nurses have a very vocal union

They've a positive public image, so they're a good group to raise if people want to cut your pay. 'What about the TV licence inspectors' wouldn't suspend critical faculties in the same way.

epo addict · 14-05-2020 1:01pm

no public service worker should have their pay cut

The country cannot afford asylum seekers and the direct provision free hotels

We can no longer afford the luxury of funding this there will be no jobs here

radiotrickster · 14-05-2020 1:05pm

People focus a lot on nurses being ‘frontline’ but health care assistants and tons of admin staff and porters can be on the front line as much as them.

Not all admin staff are hidden away in offices either. There are a lot that are helping patients, whether it’s acting effectively as security in the front of the hospital to stop visitors or linking someone to help them walk from A to B. At the end of the day, that’s all frontline work too.

People have been redeployed, had their jobs changed and are dealing with situations they couldn’t have expected before this.

fly_agaric · 14-05-2020 1:06pm

mariaalice wrote: »

Absolutely not, its a general discussion on publice services pay nothing to do with nurses pre say.

My daughter is a nurse.

Wasn't clear what you were driving at there.
Of course nurses, doctors, guards etc get dragged into discussions on public sector pay rate for a lot of reasons.

Public servants themselves will obviously want to point to people doing extremely important + high profile jobs who interact with the "public" regularly (so are somewhat relatable) when trying to defend their pay rates generally.

Those who argue for pay cuts will want to airbrush them out of discussion or at least put them in a special category/label them as outliers (the "good"/"worthy" front line who should be paid more, not cut).

It helps them argue the scythe should be wielded against the rest of the pen pushers and other feather-bedded ne'er do wells on a cushy number which they argue populate the rest of the public sector.

The public doesn't really know what a lot of these faceless bureaucrats do in any case so surely they should be paid less (are lucky to have their job, would not be missed if laid off)?

blanch152 · 14-05-2020 1:08pm

ted1 wrote: »

The thing with public service pay is that those on low incomes shouldn’t be cut. While those on higher incomes are paying 52% tax which goes back to the employer.

Do really lots of times it’s just optics.

Take a 2,000 pay cut
State that’s 1040 euro
Employee gets 960.
Employee pays 23% VAT on say 600 worth if good
So another 138 goes back to employer
Say other 360 goes on services at 13% tax, so another 48 euro.

Out of 2,000. The state are taking back 1,226 anyway. But the 2,000 is supporting business and jobs. So really the state would achieve nothing by pay cuts

Those on higher incomes are not just paying 52% in tax, PRSI and USC. With their pension contributions, over 60% of their marginal salary is going back to the taxpayer.

The_Brood · 14-05-2020 1:13pm

mariaalice wrote: »

The COVID payment has nothing to do with it, its a short term emergency payment. a very odd view to take, the lower end of the basic clerical salary is poor alright.

It matters like hell - any suggestion to cut the pay of full time workers who already are barely making anything above Covid payments to the unemployed is bat**** insane.

lawred2 · 14-05-2020 1:16pm

mariaalice wrote: »

Will, there be public service pay cuts and cuts to services themselves after COVID 19? interesting discussion on RTE 1 radio about this, on the other hand, the likes of David McWilliams take a different view on how we can pay for this.

No. Public service pay cuts are ideologically driven and serve little purpose but to achieve upset.

We've done enough listening to likes of Colm McCarthy.

Our issues are politicians standing over and preserving unaffordable social welfare programs.

Not much of thank you to those in the HSE after all this to go and cut their income is it?

Birneybau · 14-05-2020 1:38pm

I'm a public servant of 14 years, I do not earn 40k a year and I've already had pay cuts/deferments over the years, due to the crash etc. I'm paraphrasing P. Flynn here but try it, see how far that money gets you.

Why don't any of these mouthpieces ever go for jobs in the public service if they think we are all on the pig's back?

And I work hard, working harder from home last few months than I would be in the office, and it's bloody awkward as well.

mariaalice · 14-05-2020 1:44pm

Birneybau wrote: »

I'm a public servant of 14 years, I do not earn 40k a year and I've already had pay cuts/deferments over the years, due to the crash etc. I'm paraphrasing P. Flynn here but try it, see how far that money gets you.

Why don't any of these mouthpieces ever go for jobs in the public service if they think we are all on the pig's back?

And I work hard, working harder from home last few months than I would be in the office, and it's bloody awkward as well.

He was a retired ex-public servant able it from the upper echelons.

saabsaab · 14-05-2020 1:49pm

Public service pay agreements are should be obvious across the public service. Cuts affect all including health service not a popular move right now.

mariaalice · 14-05-2020 1:52pm

John Moran, Former Secretary-General Department of Finance.

The irony of it :pac: former public servent on massive pension recommends pay cut for current public servants.

What kind of pension would he be on.

AndrewJRenko · 14-05-2020 2:01pm

nigeldaniel wrote: »

Well if they clamped down on expenses I would not see a need for pay cuts.

What expenses would these be that you're referring to now?

Fred Cryton wrote: »

No no, silly. This is Ireland. In Ireland, we don't "cut" anything. We instead identify the narrow band of hard working middle income private sector higher rate taxpayers (around 20% of the population), and we simply increase their taxes yet again. More welfare and more public sector pay, sure why not? Wouldn't it be cruel not to? Just identify those people, tax them once again, and then pat yourself on the back for reducing "inequality".

You know there's more to tax than just income tax, right?

mariaalice wrote: »

John Moran, Former Secretary-General Department of Finance.

The irony of it :pac: former public servent on massive pension recommends pay cut for current public servants.

What kind of pension would he be on.

So just to be clear, you've no idea what pension he is on, but you've already decided it is massive. Is he on any pension at all, given his date of joining, his age and his fixed term contract?

Birneybau · 14-05-2020 2:11pm

mariaalice wrote: »

He was a retired ex-public servant able it from the upper echelons.

Yeah, you missed the point. You have said your daughter is a nurse, and fair play to her. The HSE is ridiculously top heavy salary-wise, it's a bloated fit for nothing bureaucratical organisation.

There should be more, better paid nurses and doctors, and less pencil pushers. Rid the HSE of most of the 'brain' trust and you'll have a more efficient entity, funding and work wise.

Public service pay cut?

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