Public service pay cut?

mariaalice · 14-05-2020 11:16am #1

Will, there be public service pay cuts and cuts to services themselves after COVID 19? interesting discussion on RTE 1 radio about this, on the other hand, the likes of David McWilliams take a different view on how we can pay for this.

Wheety · 14-05-2020 11:20am

I think there will be reductions. Certainly, I imagine, the pay restoration due in October, will not go ahead.

nigeldaniel · 14-05-2020 11:23am

Well if they clamped down on expenses I would not see a need for pay cuts.

addaword · 14-05-2020 11:23am

Of course there will be pay cuts, the country is living way beyond its means and is spending much more than it is taking in. It is unsustainable.

FVP3 · 14-05-2020 11:23am

We definitely need to take more money out of the economy as this crisis unfolds.

blanch152 · 14-05-2020 11:25am

Is it really possible to cut the pay of nurses in the aftermath of Covid-19?

Yes, I think the increase due in October will be deferred, possibly with a promise of back-payment when the finances allow, and the next deal will not be as generous as previously expected. However, there are many public servants whose rate of pay is still below the 2008 rate - the scope for cuts is therefore limited.

utyh2ikcq9z76b · 14-05-2020 11:27am

Not a hope, cutting nurses pay during this would create a political storm

Summer2020 · 14-05-2020 11:31am

The pay increase due in October is tied to a productivity deal , a lot of which has already been implemented in the PS. So if it doesn’t go ahead then the govt have broken their side of the deal, expect a lot of the productivity improvements to be rolled back.

saabsaab · 14-05-2020 11:36am

FVP3 wrote: »

We definitely need to take more money out of the economy as this crisis unfolds.

True, just what is needed! No money to any sector or business bound to improve the economic recovery.

Fred Cryton · 14-05-2020 11:37am

No no, silly. This is Ireland. In Ireland, we don't "cut" anything. We instead identify the narrow band of hard working middle income private sector higher rate taxpayers (around 20% of the population), and we simply increase their taxes yet again. More welfare and more public sector pay, sure why not? Wouldn't it be cruel not to? Just identify those people, tax them once again, and then pat yourself on the back for reducing "inequality".

mariaalice · 14-05-2020 11:42am

FVP3 wrote: »

We definitely need to take more money out of the economy as this crisis unfolds.

The former government department person on the RTE 1 radio was keen on keeping infrastructure spending going.

mariaalice · 14-05-2020 11:44am

Damian Faint Carp wrote: »

Not a hope, cutting nurses pay during this would create a political storm

What is the obsession with nurses? there are hundreds of thousands of other public servants.

Fann Linn · 14-05-2020 11:46am

I heard some FFailer earlier this week saying we should get a bonus.
Bring it on. Thanks.

mlem123 · 14-05-2020 11:58am

I hope not.. I'm a recent entrant in the HSE but have been redeployed for months, now working harder than I ever have anywhere else I've worked and the idea of being rewarded with a pay cut would be upsetting to say the least

ShareShare · 14-05-2020 12:00pm

mariaalice wrote: »

What is the obsession with nurses? there are hundreds of thousands of other public servants.

Its a pandemic. They're risking their lives to help save us.
When its not a pandemic, when you are at your weakest.. they help you.

This is why we care about them.

mariaalice · 14-05-2020 12:04pm

mlem123 wrote: »

I hope not.. I'm a recent entrant in the HSE but have been redeployed for months, now working harder than I ever have anywhere else I've worked and the idea of being rewarded with a pay cut would be upsetting to say the least

For what its worth I don't think there will be pay cuts as such, but promotion will be paused and the like, soft pay cuts, there will be a lot of recruitment but it all all be an entry-level we have an expanding population and need services health care, education has to be provided.

Infrastructure spending will go ahead with some tweeks as it a stimulus ot the economy.

Mad_maxx · 14-05-2020 12:04pm

mariaalice wrote: »

Will, there be public service pay cuts and cuts to services themselves after COVID 19? interesting discussion on RTE 1 radio about this, on the other hand, the likes of David McWilliams take a different view on how we can pay for this.

no there will not , FG are the only party who would even consider such a thing and they are led by a spineless cynic obsessed with spin

Mad_maxx · 14-05-2020 12:06pm

mariaalice wrote: »

What is the obsession with nurses? there are hundreds of thousands of other public servants.

irish people love nurses , sure everyone knows that

mariaalice · 14-05-2020 12:06pm

ShareShare wrote: »

Its a pandemic. They're risking their lives to help save us.
When its not a pandemic, when you are at your weakest.. they help you.

This is why we care about them.

I know that what i meant was why the obsession with mentioning them in every discussion on HSE public service pay when there are hundreds of thousands of other public servants.

ted1 · 14-05-2020 12:13pm

The thing with public service pay is that those on low incomes shouldn’t be cut. While those on higher incomes are paying 52% tax which goes back to the employer.

So really lots of times it’s just optics.

Take a 2,000 pay cut
State that’s 1040 euro
Employee gets 960.
Employee pays 23% VAT on say 600 worth of goods
So another 138 goes back to employer
Say other 360 goes on services at 13% tax, so another 48 euro.

Out of 2,000. The state are taking back 1,226 anyway. But the 2,000 is supporting business and jobs. So really the state would achieve nothing by pay cuts

mariaalice · 14-05-2020 12:17pm

ted1 wrote: »

The thing with public service pay is that those on low incomes shouldn’t be cut. While those on higher incomes are paying 52% tax which goes back to the employer.

Do really lots of times it’s just optics.

Take a 2,000 pay cut
State that’s 1040 euro
Employee gets 960.
Employee pays 23% VAT on say 600 worth if good
So another 138 goes back to employer
Say other 360 goes on services at 13% tax, so another 48 euro.

Out of 2,000. The state are taking back 1,226 anyway. But the 2,000 is supporting business and jobs. So really the state would achieve nothing by pay cuts

I do not think there will be pay cuts but there will be other ways of cutting spending or pausing spending, there are lots of ways less spending can be spun so its dose does not look like less spending.

fly_agaric · 14-05-2020 12:20pm

mariaalice wrote: »

Will, there be public service pay cuts and cuts to services themselves after COVID 19? interesting discussion on RTE 1 radio about this, on the other hand, the likes of David McWilliams take a different view on how we can pay for this.

I expect so. Even with massive borrowing by the state there will still be another "FEMPI" type cut for them all next year IMO. Could get rocky industrial relations wise but if we still have some massive % of unemployment across the economy by that time, similar to financial crisis will be hard to object (particularly for those further up the payscales)

The borrowing will (hopefully) mean they won't have an indiscriminate hiring freeze like 2008-2014 or so, or slash the health budget (or other public sector budgets) to ribbons when it'll probably be a very bad time to do that.

Bicyclette · 14-05-2020 12:24pm

There are a lot of public sector employees currently doing a 37.5 hour week at the moment for roughly €150 more than the Covid payment - e.g. 500 pw or less vs €350 pw. By the time you take off deductions, there isn't a significant difference. Its €4 per hour more gross.

These people are working in places such as Social Welfare and Revenue processing payments, doing contact tracing, and other things that are keeping this country going.

Take for example someone on the bottom of the Clerical Officer Scale. They earn €461 per week gross. Just €111 more than the Covid Payment. Over 37.5 hours, that works out at €2.97 per hour more. GROSS. How could you possibly cut those wages?

There is a perception that the public service are very well paid. The Post 2011 entrants are not.
Link to the actual pay rates here: https://www.forsa.ie/about-forsa/divisions/civil-service/civil-service-pay-scales/

Remember most people in the public service are at Clerical Officer Grade.

Mad_maxx · 14-05-2020 12:27pm

Bicyclette wrote: »

There are a lot of public sector employees currently doing a 37.5 hour week at the moment for roughly €150 more than the Covid payment - e.g. 500 pw or less vs €350 pw. By the time you take off deductions, there isn't a significant difference. Its €4 per hour more gross.

These people are working in places such as Social Welfare and Revenue processing payments, doing contact tracing, and other things that are keeping this country going.

Take for example someone on the bottom of the Clerical Officer Scale. They earn €461 per week gross. Just €111 more than the Covid Payment. Over 37.5 hours, that works out at €2.97 per hour more. GROSS. How could you possibly cut those wages?

There is a perception that the public service are very well paid. The Post 2011 entrants are not.
Link to the actual pay rates here: https://www.forsa.ie/about-forsa/divisions/civil-service/civil-service-pay-scales/

Remember most people in the public service are at Clerical Officer Grade.

well thats good to know ( that they werent - arent earning much ) , the vast majority of the clerical officers ive dealt with down the years , i wouldnt trust them to run to the shops to get me a newspaper , they were that incompetent

mariaalice · 14-05-2020 12:27pm

Bicyclette wrote: »

There are a lot of public sector employees currently doing a 37.5 hour week at the moment for roughly €150 more than the Covid payment - e.g. 500 pw or less vs €350 pw. By the time you take off deductions, there isn't a significant difference. Its €4 per hour more gross.

These people are working in places such as Social Welfare and Revenue processing payments, doing contact tracing, and other things that are keeping this country going.

Take for example someone on the bottom of the Clerical Officer Scale. They earn €461 per week gross. Just €111 more than the Covid Payment. Over 37.5 hours, that works out at €2.97 per hour more. GROSS. How could you possibly cut those wages?

There is a perception that the public service are very well paid. The Post 2011 entrants are not.
Link to the actual pay rates here: https://www.forsa.ie/about-forsa/divisions/civil-service/civil-service-pay-scales/

Remember most people in the public service are at Clerical Officer Grade.

The COVID payment has nothing to do with it, its a short term emergency payment. a very odd view to take, the lower end of the basic clerical salary is poor alright.

Mad_maxx · 14-05-2020 12:33pm

mariaalice wrote: »

The COVID payment has nothing to do with it, its a short term emergency payment. a very odd view to take, the lower end of the basic clerical salary is poor alright.

its better than what most receptionists or low level secretaries do in the private sector and they dont have a guarenteed pension

differences between public and private are widest at the lower end

august12 · 14-05-2020 12:35pm

Mad_maxx wrote: »

well thats good to know ( that they werent - arent earning much ) , the vast majority of the clerical officers ive dealt with down the years , i wouldnt trust them to run to the shops to get me a newspaper , they were that incompetent

You could also apply that logic to any grade in the public sector, difference being, the obscene levels of income paid to incompetent senior staff who's best career performance is a 30 minute interview. That's one of the major problems with promotion in the public sector. And won't be changed anytime soon.

mariaalice · 14-05-2020 12:37pm

Mad_maxx wrote: »

its better than what most receptionists or low level secretaries do in the private sector and they dont have a guarenteed pension

differences between public and private are widest at the lower end

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Not really.

VillageIdiot71 · 14-05-2020 12:39pm

Bicyclette wrote: »

Take for example someone on the bottom of the Clerical Officer Scale. They earn €461 per week gross. Just €111 more than the Covid Payment. Over 37.5 hours, that works out at €2.97 per hour more. GROSS. How could you possibly cut those wages?

There is a perception that the public service are very well paid. The Post 2011 entrants are not.
Link to the actual pay rates here: https://www.forsa.ie/about-forsa/divisions/civil-service/civil-service-pay-scales/

Remember most people in the public service are at Clerical Officer Grade.

And the Clerical Officer scale goes up to €40,000 p.a., which is double the Covid payment. Quite good money.

On nurses, at some stage we've got to get over it. The honest ones frankly admit that they're having the easiest couple of months they've ever had, as the hospitals are empty.

Low paid care assistants in nursing homes are under pressure, and genuinely in the so called front line. But they're mostly in the private sector. Ditto supermarket workers, who've had much more exposure to the general population than nurses, frequently for nothing more than minimum wage.

FVP3 · 14-05-2020 12:42pm

Fred Cryton wrote: »

No no, silly. This is Ireland. In Ireland, we don't "cut" anything. We instead identify the narrow band of hard working middle income private sector higher rate taxpayers (around 20% of the population), and we simply increase their taxes yet again. More welfare and more public sector pay, sure why not? Wouldn't it be cruel not to? Just identify those people, tax them once again, and then pat yourself on the back for reducing "inequality".

Could tax the rich but in the absence of that it's either tax the middle income groups, or let the deficit increase. Maybe grab a few of those sweet eurobonds.

noodler · 14-05-2020 12:43pm

ShareShare wrote: »

Its a pandemic. They're risking their lives to help save us.
When its not a pandemic, when you are at your weakest.. they help you.

This is why we care about them.

Alot of hospitals are empty.

There was a pay deal for nurses last year, on top of the general PS pay deal and increments.

I also think we shouldn't lump all nurses in with this those on ICU and COVID wards.

Those nurses should get a grant.

Obviously difficult to see the 2% in October at the very least.

Public service pay cut?

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