ESB new peaker plant will be ... natural gas

LXFlyer · 08-05-2020 01:30PM

One only has to go back to the Bombardier era of buses in Ireland, when an unproven manufacturer was chosen, to see what the impact of such a decision could be like.

It was horrific and the bus service was viewed as a laughing stock in this country as a result.

The difference since 1990, since when all new buses have been from reliable established bus manufacturers, has been immense.

Until there are models of electric double decks with significant proven reliability, there is no point in letting Dublin be a test bed again.

The critically important role of the bus in Dublin’s public transport provision, means that it is not suitable as a test bed in large quantities. It requires reliability as the prime factor when choosing new vehicle models.

celtic_oz · 09-05-2020 07:30AM

South Korean Hyundai Double Decker (2019)

Link

Indian Optare doubledecker (2018 )

Link

Chinese BYD Double Decker (2016)

Link

Bigus · 09-05-2020 07:53AM

The ADL bus that the NTA ordered is very under ambitious, féckin battery is smaller than a Nissan Leaf !
From the bus makers website.
[The Enviro400ER is a double deck diesel-electric hybrid, capable of at least 2.5 kilometres continuous electric range with no exhaust emissions. It utilises the BAE Systems Series-ER hybrid system with a 32kWh next-generation lithium-ion battery energy storage system that can be charged externally via a plug-in connection, meeting the requirements of the European Union’s Clean Vehicles Directive.]
The Hyundai DD has 384 kWh battery !

However don’t know the price of these things , so I’d say this is the major factor when ordering 500 .

09-05-2020 10:45AM

Wait, 2.5km,what the good is that supposed to be.

Also, there are 2 very distinct topics in this thread, time for a split methinks

bk · 09-05-2020 11:07AM

celtic_oz are you just ignoring my posts, I've already pointed out all the above buses and why their are issues with them?

BTW The Hyundai one is a coach, not a bus.

Optare are a very small company, don't have the capacity to make enough buses for us. BYD are working with ADL, but currently don't have enough range for all day use in UK/Ireland.

Do you have something actually useful to add to this conversation or are you just going to continue to post pictures of very limited prototypes with little real world experience to back it up?

Bigus wrote: »

The ADL bus that the NTA ordered is very under ambitious, féckin battery is smaller than a Nissan Leaf !
From the bus makers website.
[The Enviro400ER is a double deck diesel-electric hybrid, capable of at least 2.5 kilometres continuous electric range with no exhaust emissions. It utilises the BAE Systems Series-ER hybrid system with a 32kWh next-generation lithium-ion battery energy storage system that can be charged externally via a plug-in connection, meeting the requirements of the European Union’s Clean Vehicles Directive.]
The Hyundai DD has 384 kWh battery !

However don’t know the price of these things , so I’d say this is the major factor when ordering 500 .

The ADL's actually have a big battery for a hybrid bus. Traditional hybrid buses that they trialled last year had battery sizes less then 2kwh.

32kwh is the biggest hybrid bus on the market.

Of course the Hyundai is cool, but it is a full EV and as you say 382kwh is going to cost you a pretty penny. Also it is a coach, not a bus.

Deleted User wrote: »

Wait, 2.5km,what the good is that supposed to be.

The idea is that it can run off just the battery while in the core city center and thus no emissions where the biggest congestion is and most pollution. When running off the battery, they obviously have no emissions.

Outside the city center, they then switch on the engine to recharge the battery.

This is all controlled by GPS, so it can switch between battery running and engine running when entering and exiting city center, dense urban areas, etc. Quiet clever.

They can also run purely off battery at slower speeds when approaching and leaving bus stops.

Traditional hybrid buses can't do any of this as the engine always needs to be running. The battery just allows it to run at it's optimal for longer.

Frankly they are a big step up from the traditional hybrid buses that are common in London. When this tender went out we all thought we would end up with the traditional hybrids like London. This order with ADL was a pleasant surprise and a major step up in capability.

We are very conservative here. We usually allow London to trail new tech and buses, see how it goes for them and then follow what works a few years later.

London has made some serious mistakes over the year, like the Boris bus. But they can handle it better then us due to their much larger bus fleet and more money.

celtic_oz · 09-05-2020 01:17PM

Bk you are not the only person in this thread. There are a few that have said there NO double decker electric buses.

I have posted pictures to illustrate why this is false.

The hyundai is a double decker in its strictest definition albeit with 70 seats

"The bus has just 11 seats on the lower level (compared to 59 up top), to accommodate two fixed-in-space wheelchairs and maximise accessibility for disabled and mobility impaired passengers." Link

The BYD made double decker buses are in use in China and London since 2015, irrespective of how conservative we are. link

When europe starts doling out the fines for the breaking our CO2 agreement it could make these buses look very cheap.

LXFlyer · 09-05-2020 01:30PM

celtic_oz wrote: »

Bk you are not the only person in this thread. There are a few that have said there NO double decker electric buses.

I have posted pictures to illustrate why this is false.

The hyundai is a double decker in its strictest definition albeit with 70 seats

"The bus has just 11 seats on the lower level (compared to 59 up top), to accommodate two fixed-in-space wheelchairs and maximise accessibility for disabled and mobility impaired passengers." Link

The BYD made double decker buses are in use in China and London since 2015, irrespective of how conservative we are. link

When europe starts doling out the fines for the breaking our CO2 agreement it could make these buses look very cheap.

The point remains that they are still unproven as a major fleet replacement outside of China. There have only been small clusters in use. They haven’t gone into mass production for European operators yet.

Dublin just cannot afford to be a test bed for new vehicles due to the critically important role the bus plays in our public transport network - it is too risky to get it wrong.

I’m guessing that you are too young to remember the experience that CIÉ and later Dublin Bus Had the last time they went for an unproven product, in the form of the Bombardier fleet in the 1980s. It was an absolute disaster, caused serious reliability issues, and has rightly coloured fleet purchases ever since.

Ever since, new vehicles for the PSO fleet have only been proven models with a good track record of reliability and solid product support chains.

There is a trade off here, and as I said before Dublin needs proven technology with established supply chains, rather than being a guinea pig.

Once electric double decks become accepted across operators I think you will see the move being made to them, but for now you will not see the engineers risking it.

donvito99 · 09-05-2020 08:21PM

So you're saying we could use an electric BYD double decker to meet our country's peak electricity demand?

celtic_oz · 10-05-2020 08:27AM

donvito99 wrote: »

So you're saying we could use an electric BYD double decker to meet our country's peak electricity demand?

what on earth are you talking about?

The premise of this thread is that the peaker plant should probably be grid scale battery which although more costly up front would allow us to fully leverage CO2 free renewables. See the south Australian battery installed in 2018, which is now being expanded. link

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gemTSR0xmwA

Natural gas peaker plants risk being stranded assets Link,

An analogy was drawn to electric buses which are well proven in China ( albeit with single deckers ), changing the fleet to hybrids risks them being stranded assets also, which will only have to be changed again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94Kf1Yuq_94

Critics say its too risky .. but Ireland faces multibillion EU fines over emissions target failure Link

machiavellianme · 10-05-2020 08:40AM

celtic_oz wrote: »

https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/esb-lodges-plans-for-75mw-dublin-peaker-plant-39174692.html

just like Dublin bus buy diesel buses and when embarrassed in the media submit to a few hybrids when clearly electric bus's are the future

Do you think the ESB even costed a grid scale storage battery ?

https://youtu.be/O-kbzfWzvSI?t=889

There's hundreds of MW of battery storage proposed to connect around the system but gas or oil powered peakers do something that batteries never can - they generate electricity!
Batteries are good for system services like reserve but unless you are installing a football pitch sized array, you'll not get much more than an hour or two of battery storage. What about the 12 cloudy days in winter where the wind doesn't blow? Batteries will get you through the first hour, Turlough Hill might get another 12, what then?

tom1ie · 10-05-2020 09:28AM

bk wrote: »

Couple of reasons.

First of all, they lack experience building DD's, AFAIR all Chinese buses are single deckers.

Very few countries use DD's, mostly just UK, Ireland, some in Berlin, Singapore and Hong Kong. So it is relatively a very small market for them. Then there is the whole Left Hand Drive difference to make it an even smaller market.

But also, it would be hard for them to break into the market here. Transport Authorities in the UK and Ireland would have decades of relationships with Wrights and ADL. These companies basically build the buses precisely to their spec.

Going with an unproven Chinese company would be risky for transport authorities. They aren't looking to save money on buying a bus, they look for quality and reliability and are typically willing to pay extra for that.

Some smaller Coach companies here bought some Chinese coaches, turned out to be total junk, got dumped after just 3 years.

So given all that, it was smart for BYD to partner with ADL. It mixes both companies strengths. BYD's expertise is in their battery tech and electric motors, while ADL have lots of experience with building buses to UK specs. And they can leverage ADL's relationship with transport authorities.

BTW this sort of relationship isn't unusual at all, quiet common in bus manufacturing.

For instance earlier I mentioned that the current Dublin Buses are made by Wrightbus. That is only partly true. For the past 5 years or so the NTA contract has actually been with Volvo. Volvo build the bus chassis, drive train and engine in Sweden and then they shipped those to Wrights in Northern Ireland who they then subcontracted to build the body of the bus around the Volvo chassis.

Which might raise the question, why don't Volvo build LHD DD buses themselves?

I bet this is WAY more then you ever wanted to know about this market

Ah no it’s interesting. I wonder why double deckers are mostly confined to the uk and Ireland.
If they are more efficient at moving people around per unit of currency spent, why doesn’t every country use them? Or are they not more cost effective?

LXFlyer · 10-05-2020 11:10AM

celtic_oz wrote: »

what on earth are you talking about?

The premise of this thread is that the peaker plant should probably be grid scale battery which although more costly up front would allow us to fully leverage CO2 free renewables. See the south Australian battery installed in 2018, which is now being expanded. link

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gemTSR0xmwA

Natural gas peaker plants risk being stranded assets Link,

An analogy was drawn to electric buses which are well proven in China ( albeit with single deckers ), changing the fleet to hybrids risks them being stranded assets also, which will only have to be changed again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94Kf1Yuq_94

Critics say its too risky .. but Ireland faces multibillion EU fines over emissions target failure Link

No, I and others are pointing out the very good reasons why Dublin shouldn’t be a test bed - the historical experiences are anything but good.

You just seem to want to ignore that.

bk · 10-05-2020 01:24PM

tom1ie wrote: »

Ah no it’s interesting. I wonder why double deckers are mostly confined to the uk and Ireland.
If they are more efficient at moving people around per unit of currency spent, why doesn’t every country use them? Or are they not more cost effective?

Not just the UK/Ireland, but almost, most of the others are ex-British Colonies. Hong Kong, etc. Berlin is an interesting exception.

There is actually a question if Double Deckers really are more efficient. They definitely don't carry twice as many passengers like some people think. No standing upstairs, room taken up with stairs, etc. In the real world they only carry about 20% more people.

But then they have issues with accessibility and tend to have slower dwell time.

What they do offer is more seating. It comes down to a different approach, here the idea is that buses are slower and slowly wind their way through every estate, so you better have a seat, because you are going to be there for a while.

Other countries see it differently, they see it as speedy mass transit. You are more likely to stand, but the journey is quicker, so not such a big deal. Much faster dwell times at stops, higher turnaround times. Along with more buses and frequency.

In the UK/Ireland, driver wages make up the bulk of bus companies cost. So they try and get away with less buses and thus drivers.

Other countries driver wages aren't so high, so instead they throw more buses/drivers/frequency at the problem.

Tends to lead to better service for customers, though the UK/Irish approach is of course better for the drivers who get a job there.

celtic_oz wrote: »

The hyundai is a double decker in its strictest definition albeit with 70 seats
[/URL]

My point is that the Hyundai is a Double Decker Coach, it is not a city bus, which is what I thought we were talking about.

Dublin Bus don't use coaches, they use city buses.

Dublin Coach use double decker coach between Limerick and Dublin, this is what this Hyundai is designed for, not for city use.

Dublin Bus could never use this Hyundai, wrong type of vehicle. Though they could potentially use either the ADL-BYD DD or the Optare DD if they eventually overcome their issues.

I really hope they do and I believe they will. I'm a big fan of them. But I also understand that they just aren't quiet ready yet.

gjim · 11-05-2020 07:47PM

tom1ie wrote: »

Ah no it’s interesting. I wonder why double deckers are mostly confined to the uk and Ireland.
If they are more efficient at moving people around per unit of currency spent, why doesn’t every country use them? Or are they not more cost effective?

Double deckers have some serious drawbacks as components of a reliable public transport system. They sort-of made sense when you had a separate inspector issuing/checking tickets - but in my opinion the design should have been abandoned when they went to driver-only.

The only reason they are still in use is tradition and the legacy bus on-street "infrastructure". All modern/designed bus systems use (articulated) single deckers.

The issue is that loading and unloading passengers is much slower than on a "bendy" style bus where the door to passenger ratio is twice that of a double-decker. This simple simulation https://setosa.io/bus/ shows how critical it is to have short and predictable dwell-times to provide a regular bus schedule. By their nature double deckers tend to clump.

Waiting for people to get on and off buses is a huge waste of resources. Take a typical DB route - say 50minutes scheduled end-to-end and 30 stops. If you could even reduce the dwell time at each stop by 15 seconds, the capacity of the route would increase by nearly 20%.

I'll be glad to see any of Bus Connects delivered at this stage but I would have liked to have seen more ambition with a strategy to wean Dublin away from double deckers.

tom1ie · 11-05-2020 08:24PM

gjim wrote: »

Double deckers have some serious drawbacks as components of a reliable public transport system. They sort-of made sense when you had a separate inspector issuing/checking tickets - but in my opinion the design should have been abandoned when they went to driver-only.

The only reason they are still in use is tradition and the legacy bus on-street "infrastructure". All modern/designed bus systems use (articulated) single deckers.

The issue is that loading and unloading passengers is much slower than on a "bendy" style bus where the door to passenger ratio is twice that of a double-decker. This simple simulation https://setosa.io/bus/ shows how critical it is to have short and predictable dwell-times to provide a regular bus schedule. By their nature double deckers tend to clump.

Waiting for people to get on and off buses is a huge waste of resources. Take a typical DB route - say 50minutes scheduled end-to-end and 30 stops. If you could even reduce the dwell time at each stop by 15 seconds, the capacity of the route would increase by nearly 20%.

I'll be glad to see any of Bus Connects delivered at this stage but I would have liked to have seen more ambition with a strategy to wean Dublin away from double deckers.

how does capital cost stack up dd vs articulated single decker? or even single decker vs articulated single decker vs dd?

bk · 12-05-2020 09:12AM

tom1ie wrote: »

how does capital cost stack up dd vs articulated single decker? or even single decker vs articulated single decker vs dd?

- The new Hybrid Double Deckers cost €450k each
- The previous order of single deckers was €185k each
- The New BRT (articulated bus) in Belfast cost £630k each

Of course these aren't quiet comparable, for instance the single deckers are relatively low end models, relatively short and not hybrid. These are for relatively quiet routes. If you were buying ones to replace the DD's, then you would probably looking at bigger, high end hybrid models, more like 250k or probably 300k+ if full EV.

The Belfast BRT is quiet fancy and it is from one of the most premium bus manufacturers. The bigger issue with BRT would be the capital cost of needing to upgrade roads to support such long vehicles.

For instance, the project in Belfast cost £100million total, the contract for the buses themselves was just £19million of that.

gjim · 12-05-2020 09:40AM

tom1ie wrote: »

how does capital cost stack up dd vs articulated single decker? or even single decker vs articulated single decker vs dd?

Don't know to be honest but in the one Canadian article I found which mentions prices claims they cost about the same.

Bk does a reasonable comparison in his post above (edit - cross post - I mean the one above the interesting numbers from Belfast) but for me, even the greater seat count for double deckers is negated somewhat by the fact that the majority of the seats are effectively inaccessible to elderly or disabled or even people carrying bulky items.

But for me the dwell time advantage is the killer feature - this improves the capacity of a bus route more than just comparing carrying capacity of individual vehicles. It also provides faster journeys for all passengers and it also allows a regular service as dwell times have a massively non-linear affect on "bunching".

Another advantage is that they can, if necessary, share dedicated road space with trams as the dwell times and platforms are compatible. This is common in many European cities where such buses can join segregated tramways to get through city centre squeeze points.

Also in the context of Dublin, the clearance advantage could be very relevant. The low bridge heights southern section of the DART line (from Pearse) effectively cuts off a large and growing section of the city from bus access from approaches from the South and SE. There's a similar issue north of Connolly. Running artics would allow cross city routes to use docklands bridges without having to detour west to get funnelled onto Pearse St or the quays. Or you could have a genuine "circle" line following the canal on the south, via Cardiff lane, Seville Place, etc. which is currently impossible because of the bridges.

Changing over would not be simple - it needs to be all or none on a particular route including shared sections - having a mixture of double-deckers and articulated buses sharing road space gives you the worst of both worlds.

Double deckers could still have a role for outer-suburban routes where there are large gaps between stops and there isn't so much competition for road space.

celtic_oz · 16-05-2020 08:18AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zugai6TOdeo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZI7qD78f7E

bk · 16-05-2020 06:12PM

^^ Same happening here:

https://www.rte.ie/news/leinster/2019/0904/1073693-battery-storage-offaly/
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/energy-and-resources/german-energy-group-to-spend-100m-on-battery-plants-to-store-electricity-1.3860299

And in the UK, they are building new gas peaker plants too:
https://theenergyst.com/statera-says-300mw-of-new-peakers-as-efficient-as-ccgts/
https://www.powerengineeringint.com/gas-oil-fired/limejump-adds-ylem-energy-project-to-its-virtual-power-platform/

Both battery and gas peakers plants will play a vital part in getting us to high levels of renewable energy.

BTW One interesting concept behind all this is the idea that you can use excess wind power to produce Synthetic Gas, which can then be used in these plants and also pumped into the natural gas network to heat homes in a more green fashion.

Heating is a major issue for us in Ireland. We are making great strides on the electricity production side, but have made way less progress on the energy used for home heating. Highly insulating homes, wind generated electric heating and heat pumps and wind generated synthetic gas will all likely play an important part in this area.

Another idea is using Biomethane to power both these plants and the natural gas grid. It has the advantage of coming from farming, so it is even more beneficial as it helps reduce pollution from the agriculture sector too, the largest polluter in Ireland.

celtic_oz · 16-01-2021 11:21AM

A short six months later and its interesting to read all the nonsense regarding how battery double decker buses couldn't be done

https://www.electrive.com/2020/12/22/ireland-launches-huge-tender-for-electric-double-deckers/

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/tender-for-up-to-800-all-electric-double-decker-buses-published-1.4442911

bk · 16-01-2021 01:06PM

celtic_oz wrote: »

A short six months later and its interesting to read all the nonsense regarding how battery double decker buses couldn't be done

https://www.electrive.com/2020/12/22/ireland-launches-huge-tender-for-electric-double-deckers/

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/tender-for-up-to-800-all-electric-double-decker-buses-published-1.4442911

Hold on there, who said that?!

No one said that, specially as there are already some Double Decker EV buses operating in the UK over the last year.

What I and others said is that they didn’t yet have sufficient range to operate the particularly long routes and distances DB cover, and plus issues with them taking up passenger space.

The manufacturers had seemingly told the NTA back in 2019 when the hybrid tender went out, that it would be 4 to 5 years before they would have sufficient range.

These new EV double deckers won’t enter service until start of 2023, 4 years after the hybrid tender went out and pretty much in line with what the manufacturers said, maybe a year early.

The first of the plug in hybrid buses are literally now just starting to arrive into depots and over 200 of them will be delivered before the first of these EV double deckers arrive.

It is fantastic news that we will be getting these EV buses and maybe one year sooner then expected, it shows how fast battery tech is evolving.

But no one said EV double deckers couldn’t be done, that is complete bull.

Btw in other good news, they have also issued a tender a few months ago for 100 single decker full EV buses, which will likely arrive before these. And they are also currently trialing 3 hydrogen double decker buses with BE for longer range services.

celtic_oz · 06-02-2021 03:40PM

how to upgrade a cities public transport .. done properly with battery electric

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0P7fTPLSMeI

AndyBoBandy · 06-02-2021 04:56PM

It’s gas that in most cities in Lithuania (and I’m sure many many other ex Soviet Bloc countries), they’ve had fleets of electric busses on the go for decades now at this stage, and not a battery in sight!

Obviously putting overhead lines around a city like Dublin would be expensive, but what about battery busses that could charge (and be powered) using overhead lines while in the city centre? A bust entering the city centre could easily spend 20-30 minutes in the city ‘charging zone’, and therefore putting more charge into the battery while also not using the battery (powered by overhead lines).

donvito99 · 06-02-2021 07:19PM

An electric bus will not move through traffic any quicker, or transport more people, than a diesel bus. The obsession with making an almighty change before electric vehicle technology is common place in Ireland is silly. The NTA should continue to put money into an improved service and not support the share prices of Chinese manufacturers.

AndyBoBandy · 06-02-2021 07:45PM

donvito99 wrote: »

An electric bus will not move through traffic any quicker, or transport more people, than a diesel bus.

But when their both stuck in traffic (and driving), the diesel bus will be pumping out noxious fumes into its surroundings....

Water John · 06-02-2021 07:49PM

'An electric bus will not move through traffic any quicker, or transport more people, than a diesel bus' Don

Wow, remarkable info, thanks for sharing.

donvito99 · 06-02-2021 09:09PM

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

But when their both stuck in traffic (and driving), the diesel bus will be pumping out noxious fumes into its surroundings....

Per person transported, the emission are far less than private vehicles.

Water John wrote: »

'An electric bus will not move through traffic any quicker, or transport more people, than a diesel bus' Don

Wow, remarkable info, thanks for sharing.

You are more than welcome.

06-02-2021 10:29PM

donvito99 wrote: »

An electric bus will not move through traffic any quicker, or transport more people, than a diesel bus. The obsession with making an almighty change before electric vehicle technology is common place in Ireland is silly.

So.... Don't invest in the technology until its more commonplace but it doesn't become commonplace unless it's invested in.

donvito99 wrote: »

The NTA should continue to put money into an improved service and not support the share prices of Chinese manufacturers.

What's wrong with Chinese manufacturers?

donvito99 · 06-02-2021 10:40PM

Deleted User wrote: »

So.... Don't invest in the technology until its more commonplace but it doesn't become commonplace unless it's invested in.

Let some other jurisdiction fail before we commit hundreds of millions towards the improved version.

What's wrong with Chinese manufacturers?

Why not support a European manufacturer, like VanHool or VDL? You know, companies in countries that we'd like to see do well.

07-02-2021 12:30AM

donvito99 wrote: »

Let some other jurisdiction fail before we commit hundreds of millions towards the improved version.

There's literally thousands of these on the roads already. That argument stood up 5 years ago, not anymore.

Why not support a European manufacturer, like VanHool or VDL? You know, companies in countries that we'd like to see do well.

Personally I couldn't give a toss who the manufacturer is or where they are based. If the produce works, it works.

ESB new peaker plant will be ... natural gas

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