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ESB new peaker plant will be ... natural gas

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  • Registered Users Posts: 72,826 ✭✭✭✭ Atlantic Dawn


    The sooner the Shannon LNG terminal gets built the better if going down the gas route for security of supply.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,239 ✭✭✭ tom1ie


    The sooner the Shannon LNG terminal gets built the better if going down the gas route for security of supply.

    Are the Green Party not looking to stop all LNG infrastructure, and I think it’s a red line for them to enter into government.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭ donvito99


    The tech is not there to allow Dublin Bus to switch to an all electric fleet without an enormous and costly impact on the reliability and frequency of the service.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,661 ✭✭✭ Markcheese


    Isn't somebody building grid level storage facility in the Midlands ?
    Would I rather it was battery,? yes
    Do I really understand the complexities of the grid ? Nope ?
    Ive heard of fast start up gas peaker plants in the states that have batteries included , ie, it takes 30 mins to bring them up to producing power ,and they have batteries attached to provide their rated power till them ...

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Registered Users Posts: 896 ✭✭✭ medoc


    Markcheese wrote: »
    Isn't somebody building grid level storage facility in the Midlands ?
    Would I rather it was battery,? yes
    Do I really understand the complexities of the grid ? Nope ?
    Ive heard of fast start up gas peaker plants in the states that have batteries included , ie, it takes 30 mins to bring them up to producing power ,and they have batteries attached to provide their rated power till them ...


    Yea they’re building two 100MW storage plants in Offaly. One on the site of the old Ferbane power station and a second beside the soon to be decommissioned West Offaly Power in Shannonbridge. Work started last winter and was progressing fast until the lockdown.


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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 20,995 Mod ✭✭✭✭ bk


    celtic_oz wrote: »
    just like Dublin bus buy diesel buses and when embarrassed in the media submit to a few hybrids when clearly electric bus's are the future

    650 (2/3rds of the fleet) of the most advanced Hybrid buses on the market!

    The buses they ordered are plugin hybrids with a relatively decent sized battery that allows them operate for a few km purely on battery power using GPS technology (say when inside the core city center).

    Of course we would prefer full EV buses, however the technology is immature and not ready for real world use on Double Decker buses. The plan is to move to full EV buses in 5 years time when they hope the technology to have matured.

    Same with this story. 75MW is a very small plant. We have always known that Gas will need to play a part in the mix with wind. Wind is fantastic, but obviously it doesn't blow all the time, so a backup is required.

    Gas is a good backup to wind. Gas can be cycled up relatively fast (compared to coal), if the wind isn't blowing and it only produces roughly 1/3rd of the amount of CO2 as coal, so relatively much cleaner.

    Of course Battery backup plants are a great option too and yes, two of those are currently been built. However while batteries have been very successfully used to handle very sudden spikes in demand, they are nowhere near good enough or cheap enough for widespread installation as backup to the entire wind production capability.

    We are currently at 40% renewables (mostly wind), with the plan to go 70% in the next few years. But this is only possible with backup from Gas and interconnectors to French and UK Nuclear power.

    This is all a fantastic improvement over just 15 years ago when we only had 2 to 3% renewables and burned mostly dirty coal and Peat.

    Going green is hard and it requires well thought out and engineered solutions.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,183 ✭✭✭ cgcsb


    There isn't a well tested fully electric double decker on the market yet as far as I know. It would be reckless of the NTA to buy unproven technology. There are some power storage facilities being built but unfortunately gas remains the most economic back up for renewables right now. As our gas runs out, that will change and of course unit rate prices will go up, pushing more people into domestic energy production. We're lacking practical alternatives at the minute. Large scale construction of off shore wind which is more reliable well go somewhat towards reducing the need for storage capacity but this problem will persist until there is some technical revolution, perhaps in better battery chemistry or perhaps in the form of economic nuclear fusion power.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,085 ✭✭✭ celtic_oz


    bk wrote: »
    650 (2/3rds of the fleet) of the most advanced Hybrid buses on the market!

    The buses they ordered are plugin hybrids with a relatively decent sized battery that allows them operate for a few km purely on battery power

    Even worse, now we have to wait even longer!


    "The 100% BYD designed and developed vehicle is 10.2m long, features full air conditioning and offers seats for a total 54 passengers with a further 27 standees spaces (total passengers: 81). The BYD Iron Phosphate batteries deliver 345 kWh of power and can run for up to 190 miles of typical urban driving according to the internationally recognised SORT test conditions. Recharging takes just four hours and can be completed overnight using low cost off peak electricity. This is more than enough to handle most daily duty cycles. "


    "3,000 BYD electric buses already in Xi’an ..These buses won’t be the first zero emission BYD buses in operation in the city. Xi’an launched 1,100 electric buses by BYD in 2016 and a further batch of 1,900 ebuses was delivered during 2018, bringing the number of BYD electric buses running in the city to 3,000. Now it’s time for the double decker electric buses, model K8S, already in operation in the Chinese cities of Shenzhen, Guilin, Huai’an, Jingdezhen and Pingtan. This model was launched in the late 2016 and the first delivery took place in Shenzhen."

    Link, Link and Link


    bk wrote: »
    However while batteries have been very successfully used to handle very sudden spikes in demand, they are nowhere near good enough or cheap enough for widespread installation as backup to the entire wind production capability.

    "New natural-gas plants risk becoming stranded assets (unable to compete with renewables+storage before they’ve paid off their capital cost), while existing natural-gas plants cease to be competitive as soon as 2021, RMI predicts."


    Link, Link and and an old Link

    Expansion works on the world’s biggest operating battery are progressing at a fast pace. With network connection works now finalized, the upgraded Hornsdale Power Reserve, also known as the Tesla Big Battery, is readying to assume the role of a major asset to the National Electricity Market (NEM).

    The capacity of the 100MW/129MWh battery is being expanded by 50%, through the addition of 50MW/64.5 MWh of Tesla batteries.

    ....

    Earlier this month, Neoen and its partner Mondo Power filed a planning application for a massive 600 MW battery storage project near Geelong in Victoria.

    Link


    And they are doing this in Australia which "holds 70 trillion cubic feet (Tcf) of proven gas reserves as of 2017, ranking 27th in the world and accounting for about 1% of the world's total natural gas reserves of 6,923 Tcf."


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭ donvito99


    Don't you think the NTA would have acquired electric buses if electric buses could do the job?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,085 ✭✭✭ celtic_oz


    donvito99 wrote: »
    Don't you think the NTA would have acquired electric buses if electric buses could do the job?

    Like whomever drafted the first M50 contract including a provision in case of unforeseen traffic increases.

    Like whomever signed the contract limiting the catholic churches to 100 million maximum penalty

    Like we signed an unlimited bank guarantee

    No I think they will do whatever is easiest, coz thats what we do.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭ donvito99


    There are enough old heads in the civil service to know that to be the first to adopt something en masse is a terrible idea and public resources should not be allocated such projects.

    TBH, I don't understand this obsession with electric buses. It's a stick that's been picked up by the not-in-my-front-yard types in their opposition to an enhanced bus service who are suggesting that diesel buses are responsible for desparate air quality, when in fact it is private vehicle traffic.

    Hundreds more diesel buses laid on to replace thousands of private cars will reduce air pollution and emissions.


  • Registered Users Posts: 744 ✭✭✭ Kewreeuss


    Planning permission has been requested for a gas powered power station near peamount hospital. 110MW Is that a lot? Would it break even?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,085 ✭✭✭ celtic_oz


    donvito99 wrote: »
    TBH, I don't understand this obsession with electric buses.

    Because they make more of a difference

    Forget Tesla, It's China's E-Buses That Are Denting Oil Demand


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭ donvito99


    celtic_oz wrote: »

    Hasn't production fallen off a cliff since the Chinese Gov stopped heavily subsidising that sector?

    Can you imagine the shit storm if the DoT had procured hundreds of electric buses and the first couple delivered started routinely running out of juice in service?


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,306 ✭✭✭✭ jimmycrackcorm


    tom1ie wrote: »
    Are the Green Party not looking to stop all LNG infrastructure, and I think it’s a red line for them to enter into government.

    Yes because they're ok for us to import dirty created electricity from abroad, but not generate it ourselves.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,085 ✭✭✭ celtic_oz


    donvito99 wrote: »
    Hasn't production fallen off a cliff since the Chinese Gov stopped heavily subsidising that sector?

    Can you imagine the shit storm if the DoT had procured hundreds of electric buses and the first couple delivered started routinely running out of juice in service?

    My god .. stop guessing ridiculous notions

    https://archive.thinkprogress.org/electric-buses-outsell-diesel-china/


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭ donvito99


    celtic_oz wrote: »

    You're just linking a pile of articles noting that China has bought a shit ton of electric buses.... so? China has also built 1000kms of high speed rail, should the NTA arrange for that too?

    Again, why would anyone want to be the first customer or the first mover on any of these things, especially when you're spending tax payers money.

    Do electric buses carry more people? Are they massively faster? Are they more comfortable? No.

    Can their purportedly lower life cycle and operating costs be realised in their first application in Dublin? What are the costs of the added infrastructure required at depots to facilitate these vehicles? What about the cost to reputation when these vehicles inevitably leave people stranded more frequently than a diesel counterpart?

    Why would we spend already limited monies allocated to public transport for less of a service?

    The NTA were required to replace aging buses and expand the service. Only an idiot would have taken what is an enormous risk in adopting an enormous, unproven (in the UK or Europe) fleet of vehicles.

    This is like e-voting machines, what is wrong with a paper ballot and what is wrong with the diesel bus?


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,183 ✭✭✭ cgcsb


    The Chinese electric buses are single deckers and not very long at all, i've seen them in action. We also don't know how reliable they are, because we would have to rely on the chinese to be honest about it, and they hate failure. I was in a small Chinese City last year that had recently 'finished' a wireless battery operated tram line, which charged at each stop. Even though the new system was 'open', nobody could actually get on, people were directed to a taxi rank instead and empty trams went between the outer suburban stops twice or three times a day and at points were physically pushed by construction workers.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,085 ✭✭✭ celtic_oz


    California replacing 200 polluting diesel school buses with all-electric buses

    London’s electric bus fleet becomes the largest in Europe

    Barcelona expands electric bus fleet


    But don't take my word for it

    "According to the estimation of the International Association of Public Transport, around 45% of newly licensed units in Europe will be fully electric by 2030.This fact reveals a significant aspect of the growth of the electric bus market in the region. "

    Link


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 20,995 Mod ✭✭✭✭ bk


    So EV buses definitely work for single decker buses, but double deckers are much harder.

    The big problem with batteries on buses is where do you put them. Normally you put them on the floor in cars, but you can't do that with buses, since buses need to be low floor for accessibility (wheelchairs, etc.). Single decker buses are relatively easy as you can simply put the batteries on the roof.

    But you might notice we mostly use double deck buses and that is much more challenging. You can't put the batteries on the floor and obviously you can't put them on the roof, since it would make it too high (hit a bridge) and make it way too top heavy (bus falls over).

    There have been two double decker EV buses trialled in Lodnon, one by BYD and one by Optare. The solution they used was to simply fill the back of the bus with the batteries. The problem with this approach, is that it removes multiple rows of seats for passengers and it results in the bus carrying less passengers.

    This is bad when the buses are already jam packed and risks people deciding to use their much more polluting car instead.

    In addition to the space problem, the trial of these buses found that they didn't have enough battery/range for all day operation and that they had reliability issues.

    EV double deckers simply aren't mature enough yet. They need advances in battery tech so you can get more range out of less space/weight, so that they can operate all day and take up less passenger space.

    I also want to point out, that our Diesel buses are actually one of the cleanest forms of transport we have (only DART and Luas are better). Most of the fleet are now Euro 6 engines which are VERY clean. As an example a Euro 6 Dublin Bus produces 1/10th the amount of NOX as a Diesel Volkswagen Golf. That is comparing vehicles directly. On a per passenger basis that is actually 1/800th the amount of NOX produced by a typical Diesel car!

    If we could ban cars and get everyone to use these Diesel buses, we would VASTLY reduce the amount of pollution from transport. Really your focus is on the wrong place.

    I'm a big fan of EV technology and I can't wait to see it to come to public transport. However if you actually cared about the environment, then your focus should be on getting people out of cars and onto public transport/walking/cycling. That would have a much more immediate impact to the environment.


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  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 12,581 Mod ✭✭✭✭ AndyBoBandy


    Kewreeuss wrote: »
    Planning permission has been requested for a gas powered power station near peamount hospital. 110MW Is that a lot? Would it break even?

    Not a lot, but not tiny either.

    Your typical Gas plant (in CCGT) would be about 400MW (GT 230MW, ST 170MW)

    So of that unit above near Peamount, the GT will be about 70-80MW, and it's Steam Turbine about 30-40MW.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,860 ✭✭✭ Grab All Association


    Could’ve, should’ve went nuclear in the 1970s, but the Jesus says no brigade went out protesting with their holy pictures and the so called Green Party too. Boy they got that wrong.

    You don’t win friends with salads or windmills

    you can’t build a reliable bus engine with other than diesel, you could with petrol but it would be incredibly expensive to run, places like Siberia had petrol trucks in the days of diesel cold starts unreliability.

    Solid fuel will be around for much much longer than you think it will.

    Your beloved Greens encouraged people in urban areas with 1.0-1.4ltr petrol Golfs, Micra’, etc to switch to 1.6ltr diesels when they didn’t travel the mileage to justify owning a diesel. Increasing fuel consumption! Emitting dangerous nitrous oxides which is giving people cancer and killing 1000s of people with respiratory problems. Much cleaner hybrid petrol existed at the time. They never compensated people with petrol cars that struggled to sell them in 08/09.


  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 12,581 Mod ✭✭✭✭ AndyBoBandy


    In general I would agree with the Nuclear option, however to be viable, a nuclear plant would need to have large (Heavy Duty) Steam Turbines, minimum of about 500MW per unit, and you'd have at least 2 units in a small nuclear station (but realistically would want at least 4).

    In Ireland today, 1 500MW Steam Turbine would equate to about 1/8 of our average consumption. Back in the 70's, it would have been a lot higher of a percentage of daily consumption (I don't know the consumption figures from the 70's, but would assume 500MW would be somewhere around 1/5 - 1/6 of our average daily consumption).

    If 1 turbine went down, 500MW would be a lot of capacity to have to replace, and back in the 70's when we burned only coal/peat/oil in boilers to produce steam in fossil plants, it could be half a day before you'd be up and running to replace the 500MW you lost at the nuclear plant. If the entire nuclear plant tripped, you could have days of blackouts before getting all the fossil plants up and running. Of course in this day and age, with fast start CCGT stations, you can be up and running in 30 minutes.

    In summary, nuclear is a great clean option, but on a small island like Ireland, where we don't consume a lot of electricity, you would still need a lot of back up available if the nuclear site ever went down.

    Also, fast start CCGT stations get paid whether they are generating or not, so you're still paying for them regardless.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,239 ✭✭✭ tom1ie


    Why can’t we do a turlough hill mark 2 with a larger capacity.
    Use wind power to pump the water up, let the water fall to lower lake at peak times, therefore generating electricity at peak times.
    It’s a massive natural battery, just using water as stored energy.
    Use the wind energy with small battery storage to pump the water back up.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,183 ✭✭✭ cgcsb


    tom1ie wrote: »
    Why can’t we do a turlough hill mark 2 with a larger capacity.
    Use wind power to pump the water up, let the water fall to lower lake at peak times, therefore generating electricity at peak times.
    It’s a massive natural battery, just using water as stored energy.
    Use the wind energy with small battery storage to pump the water back up.

    I'm sure this will form part of a long term solution. China Power and Bord na Mona were looking at building such a facility at Silvermines Co Tipperary. But no action on that as of yet. Hydro storage + battery storage + offshore wind + connection to the French grid + whatever gas we can get tankered in looks to be the medium to long term plan. With the growth in data centres and electric vehicles it's hard to see how we can keep up and reduce emissions.


  • Registered Users Posts: 78,221 ✭✭✭✭ Victor


    The issue with LNG is that it comes from fracking.
    Kewreeuss wrote: »
    Planning permission has been requested for a gas powered power station near peamount hospital. 110MW Is that a lot? Would it break even?
    It is 'medium-sized'. Note that the wholesale price of electricity at peak times is about 20c/kWh (before other costs), so the economics are different to those of other arrangements.

    Gas plants are currently needed to cover peak demand and for times when there is no wind. The operators have sought subsidies for their capacity (not use). I don't know what decision has been made, if any.
    Could’ve, should’ve went nuclear in the 1970s, but the Jesus says no brigade went out protesting with their holy pictures and the so called Green Party too. Boy they got that wrong.
    How would low-lying Carnsore Point look in the context of Fukushima?


  • Registered Users Posts: 917 ✭✭✭ gjim


    In summary, nuclear is a great clean option, but on a small island like Ireland, where we don't consume a lot of electricity, you would still need a lot of back up available if the nuclear site ever went down.
    Yeah. Nuclear is not a great option for a small country. I had been pro-nuclear for years, but I've recently lost enthusiasm for the idea. All things considered it was the correct decision in the 70s to not pursue the nuclear option. It's the sort of thing you need do at scale - like the French - so you end up with a deep and wide pool of expertise and experience in the the area. Also many of the 60s and 70s era plant designs were pretty poor in terms of safety features. And, with hindsight, it's looking like the overall cost of nuclear is not that cheap - capital and decommission costs can swamp the "cheap" fuel aspects. And as a power source, it's not at all flexible - plants are mostly expected to operate around a specific generating capacity - so you still need complementary sources to handle the daily changes in demand.

    I'm now pretty convinced that the future is cheap and unreliable renewables along with storage.

    And the storage doesn't have to be grid scale for this combo to work - 100,000 BEVs carrying 50KWh batteries represent 50GWh storage in aggregate. You can then over provision renewables and use dynamic pricing - maybe even involving negative electricity prices at certain times to encourage car owners to effectively provide massive distributed storage.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 61,030 Mod ✭✭✭✭ L1011


    celtic_oz wrote: »
    California replacing 200 polluting diesel school buses with all-electric buses

    London’s electric bus fleet becomes the largest in Europe

    Barcelona expands electric bus fleet


    But don't take my word for it

    "According to the estimation of the International Association of Public Transport, around 45% of newly licensed units in Europe will be fully electric by 2030.This fact reveals a significant aspect of the growth of the electric bus market in the region. "

    Link

    Single deckers. All single deckers.

    Have you actually taken a look at the makeup of the Dublin PSO (Dublin Bus + GAI fleet) recently?


  • Registered Users Posts: 537 ✭✭✭ slipperyox


    Whats wrong with keeping diesel buses?
    If my math is correct.
    Dublin bus uses 27 million litres fuel/year
    67,000 acres of rapeseed would sort that out.
    A fifth less if they switched to hybrid diesel buses.
    So 13500 acres.
    Zero carbon emmisions


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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,953 ✭✭✭ DaCor


    slipperyox wrote: »
    Whats wrong with keeping diesel buses?
    If my math is correct.
    Dublin bus uses 27 million litres fuel/year
    67,000 acres of rapeseed would sort that out.
    A fifth less if they switched to hybrid diesel buses.
    So 13500 acres.
    Zero carbon emmisions

    Check your sums


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