John Waters & Gemma O'Doherty to challenge lockdown in the high Court

jackboy · 03-05-2020 05:46PM

brightspark wrote: »

If it stops just one of your relatives from dying would you still consider it excessive?

Simple choice go to the barber, pub and shopping centre and have just one of your relatives die? or leave them closed?

I know which one I would choose.

Simple choice to continue driving your car and have just one of your relatives die. Or never drive again.

Which would you choose?

brightspark · 03-05-2020 05:50PM

jackboy wrote: »

Simple choice to continue driving your car and have just one of your relatives die. Or never drive again.

Which would you choose?

We aren't talking about "never again".

If it was a question of not driving for six months, a year or even two years then I would choose no driving naturally.

Ginger n Lemon · 03-05-2020 05:53PM

maestroamado wrote: »

I know little of this but i think if a Judicial Review can be taken against legislation that the ink is hardly dry on suggests someone got the wording wrong.
I just thought now that it may be unconstitutional to introduce such legislation in this country without referendum.
I am thinking these people secure in the knowledge that there be no sanction against them. My only hope is that we get a clear ruling.

A clear ruling and a democratic one! It would be incredible for a judicial system to allow a handful of people with medicine only background making decisions that affect 5 million of population.

In general, since when does adopting an approach practised in China is the way to go? Their constitution is complete opposite to that of Ireland.

jackboy · 03-05-2020 05:56PM

brightspark wrote: »

We aren't talking about "never again".

If it was a question of not driving for six months, a year or even two years then I would choose no driving naturally.

So three years ok and fine for someone to die. You see where what you were saying falls down. You have literally put a price of someone’s life yourself in what you have said.

brightspark · 03-05-2020 06:00PM

maestroamado wrote: »

I know little of this but i think if a Judicial Review can be taken against legislation that the ink is hardly dry on suggests someone got the wording wrong.

The bit I highlighted seems to be the most relevant.

maestroamado wrote: »

I just thought now that it may be unconstitutional to introduce such legislation in this country without referendum.

That's a great foolish idea hold a referendum to pass a law to ensure people don't spread a deadly virus. Just how would it be done????

maestroamado wrote: »

I am thinking these people secure in the knowledge that there be no sanction against them. My only hope is that we get a clear ruling.

Typical sanction would be failing to be re-elected.

Balf · 03-05-2020 06:00PM

guyfo wrote: »

More than a bit ironic that you would say I'll leave this to the experts then immediately post a link to the Journal.... Got a few Joe.ie, Mirror and Star articles to back up your statements with more expert opinions?.

Truthvader wrote: »

Oh deary me. School is not a safe refuge if your friends are dead. A bit more traumatic than missing double maths every Tuesday I expect. In any event we already got the experts and they advised a lockdown - unless of course you have access to different experts. Maybe Dessie Ellis could halt the virus in its tracks with a bag of semtex and a box of nails if only he was let

Sorry, are ye actually in denial about the lockdown increasing problems for at risk families.

I mean, you're not the first people to deny realities about child abuse when it conflicted with their ideology. I'd just have expected more from the kind of whacko cryptoCatholic that you'll find in Gemma's entourage.

If you won't accept the testimony of a front line Childline worker, then maybe this will help.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/domestic-violence-reports-up-30-in-some-areas-since-lockdown-says-garda-1.4238362

"Much of the violence and disorder associated with excess drinking has switched to the home environment and domestic violence reports to the Garda have increased by 30 per cent in some areas.

The true spike in domestic attacks is likely much higher because many victims are now in lockdown at home in such close proximity with their abusers they have lost the opportunity to reach out for help."

Can you at least admit the reality of what you advocate.

whippet · 03-05-2020 06:00PM

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Stops from dying? Ireland has had 260 deaths per 1 million of population, Sweden has had 264, one country has put itself into a recession for the next 5 years, and other didn't.

You can’t compare Sweden with Ireland ... reasons are simple:

- Swedes naturally social distance and generally don’t mingle with people outside their close circle
- Swedes will in the majority do what they are told

If the Irish were given the same directions as the swedes - over 70s self isolate and everyone else keep their distance you’d have a free for all.

Remember when we were given these directions and pubs were full, beauty spots crammed with people and reports of house party’s in most towns.

That is why a Swedish approach wouldn’t have worked here

03-05-2020 06:01PM

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

A clear ruling and a democratic one! It would be incredible for a judicial system to allow a handful of people with medicine only background making decisions that affect 5 million of population.

In general, since when does adopting an approach practised in China is the way to go? Their constitution is complete opposite to that of Ireland.

It's so far looking to be incredibly unsuccessful and those taking the case are coming across as buffoons.

maestroamado · 03-05-2020 06:04PM

brightspark wrote: »

The bit I highlighted seems to be the most relevant.

That's a great foolish idea hold a referendum to pass a law to ensure people don't spread a deadly virus. Just how would it be done????

Typical sanction would be failing to be re-elected.

Brightspark??

You seem to have nothing to say so its difficult to comment on nothing.
Tell the world what you think. That is what a forum if for...

Ginger n Lemon · 03-05-2020 06:05PM

brightspark wrote: »

The bit I highlighted seems to be the most relevant.

That's a great foolish idea hold a referendum to pass a law to ensure people don't spread a deadly virus. Just how would it be done????

Typical sanction would be failing to be re-elected.

Deadly virus?? I dont mean to undermine covid19 but there are 10 + videos of nurses dancing in empty hospitals on tiktok, youtube and other platforms. It is an outrage that we have empty hospitals and we say "yeah but its good because its better for them to be empty rather than overwhelmed".

Something that gives you 99% chance to live, should not be called "deadly". Cancer is DEADLY. Tuberculosis can easily be called DEADLY. I am just speaking facts.

brightspark · 03-05-2020 06:13PM

jackboy wrote: »

So three years ok and fine for someone to die. You see where what you were saying falls down. You have literally put a price of someone’s life yourself in what you have said.

There is always a price, yes people die on the roads almost every day, oddly enough we hear arguments to allow people to drive after consuming one or two pints too.

This is a short term situation until treatments and vaccinations can deal with the virus on a longer term basis.

It's a relatively low cost not to go to the pub, not to go shopping for things we probably don't really need, no to get hair cut for a couple of months, not to go to the beach.

Believe it or not many people never go to the pub and survive, I suspect the rest of us can too.
Some people rarely go shopping, clothes can usually be washed quite a few times before they fall apart.
Most of us rarely go to the beach more than a couple of times a year, waiting another few months isn't really an inconvenience.
Hair an extra couple of inches long isn't going to cause much of a problem for anyone either.

alchemist33 · 03-05-2020 06:14PM

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Stops from dying? Ireland has had 260 deaths per 1 million of population, Sweden has had 264, one country has put itself into a recession for the next 5 years, and other didn't.

What have my relatives gotta do with the facts of life? What have my relatives got to do with 25% unemployment levels in the country?

The real question is, for every 1 person "saved" by us sitting at home, how many have will have been killed through suicide, depression, lack of access to timely healthcare because people are scared to leave their house and go to the hospital for a check up on that pain in their chest?

Peoole making this argument always seem to forget the mental health burden associated with bereavement and illness, the mental health effects on health care workers, and the financial effects of bereavement and death. Its not as simple as no lockdown = more deaths and more unhappiness.

Ginger n Lemon · 03-05-2020 06:21PM

whippet wrote: »

You can’t compare Sweden with Ireland ... reasons are simple:

- Swedes naturally social distance and generally don’t mingle with people outside their close circle
- Swedes will in the majority do what they are told

If the Irish were given the same directions as the swedes - over 70s self isolate and everyone else keep their distance you’d have a free for all.

Remember when we were given these directions and pubs were full, beauty spots crammed with people and reports of house party’s in most towns.

That is why a Swedish approach wouldn’t have worked here

You just can not say that because country A did the right thing, country B couldnt do it because it "wouldn't work". What is working in this context? We've been in lockdown for 2 months, we will be in effective lockdown for 3 more months, we have 1000+ dead.

brightspark · 03-05-2020 06:22PM

maestroamado wrote: »

Brightspark??

You seem to have nothing to say so its difficult to comment on nothing.
Tell the world what you think. That is what a forum if for...

I believe that the legislation is necessary, whether or not it is constitutional or not is a debate that the legal professionals will decide. (How ironic that it will ultimately be decided by a few un-elected wealthy individuals).

HeidiHeidi · 03-05-2020 06:33PM

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

A clear ruling and a democratic one! It would be incredible for a judicial system to allow a handful of people with medicine only background making decisions that affect 5 million of population.

In general, since when does adopting an approach practised in China is the way to go? Their constitution is complete opposite to that of Ireland.

The handful of people with a medical background are not making the decisions. They're providing advice, in parallel with others, to the government (yes, they're the government, before you go down that rabbit hole), who then make their decisions based on all advice provided.

reg114 · 03-05-2020 06:34PM

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Stops from dying? Ireland has had 260 deaths per 1 million of population, Sweden has had 264, one country has put itself into a recession for the next 5 years, and other didn't.

What have my relatives gotta do with the facts of life? What have my relatives got to do with 25% unemployment levels in the country?

The real question is, for every 1 person "saved" by us sitting at home, how many have will have been killed through suicide, depression, lack of access to timely healthcare because people are scared to leave their house and go to the hospital for a check up on that pain in their chest?

I think you are a tad bit misinformed there Ginge, but I'm delighted to so someone who has never ever posted on boards before take to the platform with such gusto.

Indeed Sweden did not lockdown, but let me explain epidemiology in a pandemic to you. Timing of a lockdown is absolutely crucial. If a gov gets the timing wrong it makes mitigation much more difficult but not impossible. Essentially for every week Ireland didnt lock down in March, that is now costing us at least two weeks further down the line. Ireland and sweden are neck and neck as far as overall cases are concerned reflecting our poorly timed lockdown commencement and sadly this is reflected in our deaths too.

The argument is not whether we should have had a lockdown, but when the lockdown should have been imposed. What you're doing is manipulating the figures to fit your narrative. Yes depression and suicide are perennially horrendous and neither get the resources they merit, BUT, neither mental health issues nor cancer are contagious.

I made the mistake of comparing the Covid19 virus to the traditional flu back in February, I was wrong. Then I read up on the science of this particular strain of the coronavirus and my opinion changed. Indeed the science is changing daily as we learn more and more about the virus. Did you know one symptom in children has been described as Covid Toe ? This presents itself as lesions and pustules on the feet of the otherwise symptomless child? I bet you didnt.

Bacterial Pneumonia is a secondary symptom of covid19 that seems to manifest itself in patients after a week to ten days, this then migrates to an inflammatory cascade as the body tries to fight the infection and leads to multi organ failure. Doctors the world over have found instances where patients can be moderately ill one day and on the brink of death the next.

To equate covid 19 to the flu quite honestly is an ignorant statement and not one emanating from anyone who has read and studied the science. I believe a lockdown was necessary given the fact we have the lowest number of beds per capita in the oecd, if we had had a real spike in demand in hospitals we would have been in real trouble.

As far as your statement regarding medical care not being available for regular patients in hospitals , well that again is misinformed. Hospitals have empty beds because people who should be presenting are not. Please do your research on all of the above.

maestroamado · 03-05-2020 06:48PM

brightspark wrote: »

I believe that the legislation is necessary, whether or not it is constitutional or not is a debate that the legal professionals will decide. (How ironic that it will ultimately be decided by a few un-elected wealthy individuals).

I also believe the legislation is absolutely necessary.
I am unhappy that necessary legislation can be challenged in the courts by the un-elected individuals you refer to.
We also have very highly paid legislators and this is a fiasco.
I am just asking how this can happen...

Infini · 03-05-2020 07:07PM

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

I think that as unlikable as Gemma is, there is something extremely wrong living in a democracy where a handful decide the fate of entire population, unchallenged and unquestioned. This is what happens in China and North Korea.

In my opinion, having a 5 month lockdown for barbers, pubs, shopping centres is going to prove excessive. Very excessive.

Were dealing with a state of emergency caused by the incompetence of China suppressing those who raised the alarm till it was too late in containing a virulent and fatal virus to the elderly and the vunerable. The government is acting in line with the best expert advice by those who are expert in the field as well as on the current best practices internationally right now.

This kind of situation in both scale and emergency can only be equaled or exceeded by the likes of a massive natural disaster or a global war the likes of which we haven't seen in our lifetime thank god. I can accept a temporary curtailment of freedoms for the sake of the safety of others as long as the government remains open with the people and they have, look at the daily briefings and the regular updates on the cases they want to reopen and return things to as close to normal as quickly as they can it's in noone's interest to be shut indefinately but it needs to be done RIGHT, otherwise we either have wasted precious time or worse end up going in circles until the stage a vaccine is developed to immunise the worst affected or those most in danger.

Remember the last time something of similar scope happened was a century ago and MILLIONS died from it. That's what this is all about, preventing a repeat of that because were now in an age where it's possible for many people to work from home and remotely and save lives. It's a bitch but we have to get this right the first time and have patience, not allow outselves to be dictated by the whining's of the ignorant, stupid and malicious like the Karen who goes giving the Guards abuse for doing their job.

Ginger n Lemon · 03-05-2020 07:07PM

reg114 wrote: »

I think you are a tad bit misinformed there Ginge, but I'm delighted to so someone who has never ever posted on boards before take to the platform with such gusto.

Indeed Sweden did not lockdown, but let me explain epidemiology in a pandemic to you. Timing of a lockdown is absolutely crucial. If a gov gets the timing wrong it makes mitigation much more difficult but not impossible. Essentially for every week Ireland didnt lock down in March, that is now costing us at least two weeks further down the line. Ireland and sweden are neck and neck as far as overall cases are concerned reflecting our poorly timed lockdown commencement and sadly this is reflected in our deaths too.

The argument is not whether we should have had a lockdown, but when the lockdown should have been imposed. What you're doing is manipulating the figures to fit your narrative. Yes depression and suicide are perennially horrendous and neither get the resources they merit, BUT, neither mental health issues nor cancer are contagious.

I made the mistake of comparing the Covid19 virus to the traditional flu back in February, I was wrong. Then I read up on the science of this particular strain of the coronavirus and my opinion changed. Indeed the science is changing daily as we learn more and more about the virus. Did you know one symptom in children has been described as Covid Toe ? This presents itself as lesions and pustules on the feet of the otherwise symptomless child? I bet you didnt.

Bacterial Pneumonia is a secondary symptom of covid19 that seems to manifest itself in patients after a week to ten days, this then migrates to an inflammatory cascade as the body tries to fight the infection and leads to multi organ failure. Doctors the world over have found instances where patients can be moderately ill one day and on the brink of death the next.

To equate covid 19 to the flu quite honestly is an ignorant statement and not one emanating from anyone who has read and studied the science. I believe a lockdown was necessary given the fact we have the lowest number of beds per capita in the oecd, if we had had a real spike in demand in hospitals we would have been in real trouble.

As far as your statement regarding medical care not being available for regular patients in hospitals , well that again is misinformed. Hospitals have empty beds because people who should be presenting are not. Please do your research on all of the above.

Hospitals have empty beds because this disease is not that more severe than flu. There are videos of nurses dancing in empty hospitals on tiktok, youtube and other platforms, making a mockery of people like you, and me who clap for HSE every now and then.

Your post is basically saying - Ginge, diseases are contagious, we should all stay at home not to overwhelm our empty hospitals. I am also surprised that you are so equipped with so much research and science around a disease that didnt even exist 5 months ago. Where did you get your research? is that scientific research peer reviewed or were you reading imperial college model a bit too much? The same model that assumes same existing hospital capacity for pandemics, disappointing.

Ginger n Lemon · 03-05-2020 07:11PM

Infini wrote: »

Were dealing with a state of emergency caused by the incompetence of China suppressing those who raised the alarm till it was too late in containing a virulent and fatal virus to the elderly and the vunerable. The government is acting in line with the best expert advice by those who are expert in the field as well as on the current best practices internationally right now.

This kind of situation in both scale and emergency can only be equaled or exceeded by the likes of a massive natural disaster or a global war the likes of which we haven't seen in our lifetime thank god. I can accept a temporary curtailment of freedoms for the sake of the safety of others as long as the government remains open with the people and they have, look at the daily briefings and the regular updates on the cases they want to reopen and return things to as close to normal as quickly as they can it's in noone's interest to be shut indefinately but it needs to be done RIGHT, otherwise we either have wasted precious time or worse end up going in circles until the stage a vaccine is developed to immunise the worst affected or those most in danger.

Remember the last time something of similar scope happened was a century ago and MILLIONS died from it. That's what this is all about, preventing a repeat of that because were now in an age where it's possible for many people to work from home and remotely and save lives. It's a bitch but we have to get this right the first time and have patience, not allow outselves to be dictated by the whining's of the ignorant, stupid and malicious like the Karen who goes giving the Guards abuse for doing their job.

I am sorry but shutting down country for 5 months is not best practice internationally. But you are spot on, they are listening to medical experts. Medical experts want to save 1 life, they would love to save 100 lives. They do not consider poverty in these decisions or its subsequent effects. This will be evident in months to come, when suicide reports/counts are released. You dont really think that RTE will be announcing any adverse effects of lockdown during lockdown do you, with Leo in charge?

Infini · 03-05-2020 07:12PM

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Hospitals have empty beds because this disease is not that more severe than flu. There are videos of nurses dancing in empty hospitals on tiktok, youtube and other platforms, making a mockery of people like you, and me who clap for HSE every now and then.

Better empty beds than seeing the dead being left on the street like in Latin America or seeing convoys of Military Vehicles taking the dead to be cremated in Lombardy but sure its the WuFlu it'll be grand! Seriously this virus is worse than the flu because there IS no immune responce to the infection or a vaccine currently available hence it's effects are worse unlike the flu which has been around long enough that people have a natural defence to it. This is the kind of thing that shuts the anti-vaxxers up because this is what happens when you cant immunise, people die in large numbers and expecially in certain groups that have compromised defences.

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

I am sorry but shutting down country for 5 months is not best practice internationally. But you are spot on, they are listening to medical experts. Medical experts want to save 1 life, they would love to save 100 lives. They do not consider poverty in these decisions or its subsequent effects. This will be evident in months to come, when suicide reports/counts are released. You dont really think that RTE will be announcing any adverse effects of lockdown during lockdown do you, with Leo in charge?

Honestly the Economy is a secondary priority to the lost of life this could inflict if it had been allowed to run rampant, you only get one shot to do thing's right so long as people are alive you can work through these problems but you can't if your dead and if you fail the first time the collateral damage can be immersurable.

03-05-2020 07:13PM

I'm sure you can provide a source that it's only a small bit worse than the flu. It's frankly not true. Firstly it's far more infectious.. Paramedics likened New York to a daily 9-11. And your lack of respect for health care workers is despicable. Consider the number of health care workers dying in a far worse hit UK.

But sure, pretend it's like flu season.

Zubeneschamali · 03-05-2020 07:22PM

PTH2009 wrote: »

People painting these 2 as Patriots like the lads in the 1916 rising

Pearse was a nutter, too.

Brock Turnpike · 03-05-2020 07:22PM

When did boards end up with all these GO'D/JW bots? Had it always been like this?

Truthvader · 03-05-2020 07:54PM

Brock Turnpike wrote: »

When did boards end up with all these GO'D/JW bots? Had it always been like this?

Yep, they're emerging out of the woodwork now clutching their sticky little "whataboutthewhatever" nutjob fantasies they have been hoarding over the last five weeks

Ginger n Lemon · 03-05-2020 07:59PM

Infini wrote: »

Better empty beds than seeing the dead being left on the street like in Latin America or seeing convoys of Military Vehicles taking the dead to be cremated in Lombardy but sure its the WuFlu it'll be grand! Seriously this virus is worse than the flu because there IS no immune responce to the infection or a vaccine currently available hence it's effects are worse unlike the flu which has been around long enough that people have a natural defence to it. This is the kind of thing that shuts the anti-vaxxers up because this is what happens when you cant immunise, people die in large numbers and expecially in certain groups that have compromised defences.

Honestly the Economy is a secondary priority to the lost of life this could inflict if it had been allowed to run rampant, you only get one shot to do thing's right so long as people are alive you can work through these problems but you can't if your dead and if you fail the first time the collateral damage can be immersurable.

I am absolutely amazed that you disregard dancing nurses videos all over social media in empty hospitals. But that is your choice, you chose to see what you want to see.

Anti-vaxxers? Do you even know that you cant sue a vaccine company? You sue the government when things go bad with the vaccine. Do you want to guess why that is?

I'd completely disregard vaccine conversation anyways, it needs to be properly tested for many years before being released to the public. Would you inject something into your body when it has been in development for 9 months?

Economy being second priority? Why do you think life expectancy in Africa is 20 years below your average EU country? Because its HOT there?

03-05-2020 08:03PM

Cool, entering vaccine conspiracies now. Not exactly surprising for the above poster.

Truthvader · 03-05-2020 08:06PM

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

I am absolutely amazed that you disregard dancing nurses videos all over social media in empty hospitals. But that is your choice, you chose to see what you want to see.

Anti-vaxxers? Do you even know that you cant sue a vaccine company? You sue the government when things go bad with the vaccine. Do you want to guess why that is?

I'd completely disregard vaccine conversation anyways, it needs to be properly tested for many years before being released to the public. Would you inject something into your body when it has been in development for 9 months?

Economy being second priority? Why do you think life expectancy in Africa is 20 years below your average EU country? Because its HOT there?

It just keeps coming. Vaccines now. Any sign of the 5G whacko conspiracy theory?? Hurry hurry hurry last of the chocices now!

Brock Turnpike · 03-05-2020 08:39PM

When did boards end up with all these GO'D/JW bots? Had it always been like this?

Ginger n Lemon · 03-05-2020 08:44PM

Truthvader wrote: »

It just keeps coming. Vaccines now. Any sign of the 5G whacko conspiracy theory?? Hurry hurry hurry last of the chocices now!

Theories? You can not sue vaccine manufacturer. Do you know why?

I am amazed that people think vaccines are a good thing. or an effective thing. Flu vaccine has been around for many years, yet 60 000 + Americans died off flu in winter 2018. Is this a theory too?

John Waters & Gemma O'Doherty to challenge lockdown in the high Court

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