Masks

hmmm · 29-04-2020 11:17AM

No: other

Boggles wrote: »

It's not really they are just falling in line behind the USA, France, Germany, Scotland, who were all "late" to the party.

Trust me you will be wearing one soon if you want to partake in certain services.

I have no doubt that politicians will cave into the mask hysteria.

What I'd like to know is where is the medical data (peer reviewed please) showing that masks are "pivotal" at stopping the epidemic as cited by a previous poster?

There's a hundred different things we could do now to help control spread. If we are focused on only one (masks) it means other things aren't going to be done. So if masks are the most important thing we can do, let's have the evidence.

Wibbs · 29-04-2020 11:29AM

Yes: other

hmmm wrote: »

I have no doubt that politicians will cave into the mask hysteria.

What I'd like to know is where is the medical data (peer reviewed please) showing that masks are "pivotal" at stopping the epidemic as cited by a previous poster?

There's a hundred different things we could do now to help control spread. If we are focused on only one (masks) it means other things aren't going to be done. So if masks are the most important thing we can do, let's have the evidence.

Maybe read the thread. Though I suspect you're yet another one of these haruuumph I'm not wearing one of those stupid thing types, for whom no amount of data or pure simple bloody logic will convince you otherwise.

Plus nobody is suggesting masks "are the most important thing we can do". So you maybe dial down the "hysteria" yourself? People are suggesting it is another weapon in this fight against the spread of the virus, along with hand hygiene and distancing. A weapon used by every single nation who has fared fair better than us in this crisis.

Of the "hundred different things we could do", we have done sweet eff all of them by comparison to nations with more of a grip on this and more of an end in sight. Given we still don't have adequate testing, still don't have border health checks, still don't have a quarantine protocol in place, a lockdown that's not at the same level of other nations and have one of the highest R0 numbers for this virus among developed nations and a much higher infection and number of dead than a nation like ours should have, we need all the extra weapons we can get.

hmmm · 29-04-2020 12:01PM

No: other

Wibbs wrote: »

Maybe read the thread. Though I suspect you're yet another one of these haruuumph I'm not wearing one of those stupid thing types, for whom no amount of data or pure simple bloody logic will convince you otherwise.

I'm trained how to wear an FFP2 mask, I know what they are used for. I also know how difficult they are to properly fit, even for someone who is properly trained.

Masks might give a small reduction in transmission risk, but with the amount of roaring and shouting about them you think they were the answer and the cure - and very few people who are advocating masks seem to much care about the very considerable downsides. We've had this before with several passing bandwagons and it's pretty annoying as the mob moves on to something new which they are convinced is the solution - whether it was St Patrick's day, or pubs, or holiday homes etc. etc. Once this is over they'll all move on to something else - thermometers I suspect.

There is more important things we need to be doing than masks.

Garlinge · 29-04-2020 01:04PM

No: other

"Until these become widely available what is the recommended standard for homemade ones.

The expert on Rte 1 just now said whatever cloth mask you wear should be cut to shape and ideally have 3-4 layers.

I want to start making them but don't want to waste my time following some YouTube video that creates ineffective masks."

A good 100% cotton fabric will go a long way to filtering bugs and then a double layer better. Further level of protection is to have extra layer of nonwoven fabric or special filter to insert in a pocket between cotton layers or wear regular surgical mask under. A wire piece to adjust fit around nose is recommended. Some pleating or tailoring to make mask fit around face is good also. Some feature to indicate front/back so mask is not reapplied the wrong way if reused before laundering. Various options for tie back are available, from elastic to tape.

Xertz · 29-04-2020 01:05PM

Yes: other

I think people really need to think about how often they're touching their faces too. We all do it and we don't even realise we do it. I just noticed though, while wandering around shopping, plenty of people will do things like rub their eyes, push glasses up their nose, touch their nose, rub their cheeks.. you name it they're doing it.

I actually stopped wearing my glasses when I'm out in shops and so on as I notice I constantly adjust them on my nose as they slip down. So, I find when I wear contacts I don't touch my face, so that's now what I do when I'm in the supermarket or whatever.

Xertz · 29-04-2020 01:07PM

Yes: other

Garlinge wrote: »

"Until these become widely available what is the recommended standard for homemade ones.

The expert on Rte 1 just now said whatever cloth mask you wear should be cut to shape and ideally have 3-4 layers.

I want to start making them but don't want to waste my time following some YouTube video that creates ineffective masks."

A good 100% cotton fabric will go a long way to filtering bugs and then a double layer better. Further level of protection is to have extra layer of nonwoven fabric or special filter to insert in a pocket between cotton layers or wear regular surgical mask under. A wire piece to adjust fit around nose is recommended. Some pleating or tailoring to make mask fit around face is good also. Some feature to indicate front/back so mask is not reapplied the wrong way if reused before laundering. Various options for tie back are available, from elastic to tape.

A female friend of mine just cut up her old padded bras and attached the elasticated straps to the side of them and made nose pieces out of some kind of bendable wire that she stitched into the top of the bra pad.

She's wearing those as masks and they actually don't look like bras at all - they look rather like they were custom made but they're not a bad fit at all. Also they're machine washable (once you remove the metal clip)

A good laundry detergent will rip SARS-CoV-2 apart as they're full of powerful surfactants and (if bio) enzymes like protease and lipase which would break down proteins and fat molecules very effectively. Coronaviruses have a lipid envelope which is destroyed by those kinds of cleaning products.

So if you are using a washable fabric mask, just wash it in a normal wash with a main stream laundry detergent like Ariel, Persil, Aldi/Lidl own brands and it should be pretty effective.

Wibbs · 29-04-2020 01:08PM

Yes: other

hmmm wrote: »

I'm trained how to wear an FFP2 mask, I know what they are used for. I also know how difficult they are to properly fit, even for someone who is properly trained.

Again you're missing the point by a country mile. It is not about protecting yourself, it is about limiting the spread from the potentially infected.

And I'm sorry, unless someone is a one braincelled moron with four thumbs and the shakes fitting an FFP2 respirator is hardly rocket surgery. They've been training army recruits, some with little formal education, in the use of gas masks and other military PPE for nearly a century. However, it's not about such masks.

Masks might give a small reduction in transmission risk, but with the amount of roaring and shouting about them you think they were the answer and the cure - and very few people who are advocating masks seem to much care about the very considerable downsides. We've had this before with several passing bandwagons and it's pretty annoying as the mob moves on to something new which they are convinced is the solution - whether it was St Patrick's day, or pubs, or holiday homes etc. etc. Once this is over they'll all move on to something else - thermometers I suspect.

There is more important things we need to be doing than masks.

"Patrick's day, or pubs, or holiday homes etc" were things that needed fixing, or would you have been grand with them going on as per usual? I have no idea what you mean about thermometers. And pray tell, what are the more important things we should be doing? What are your solutions then or are you just here to be needlessly and illogically negative?

So you've not responded to my points and are just continuing on with more of the same scattergun approach to logic from your first post? Seems like my psychic abilities are working pretty well when I reckoned you were "yet another one of these haruuumph I'm not wearing one of those stupid thing types".

Seanergy · 29-04-2020 01:14PM

Yes: valved

Xertz wrote: »

A female friend of mine just cut up her old padded bras and attached the elasticated straps to the side of them and made nose pieces out of some kind of bendable wire that she stitched into the top of the bra pad.

She's wearing those as masks and they actually don't look like bras at all - they look rather like they were custom made but they're not a bad fit at all.

Fair play to her, any chance of a photo?

Xertz · 29-04-2020 01:46PM

Yes: other

Seanergy wrote: »

Fair play to her, any chance of a photo?

Well it just looks like a large filter mask when she’s made it up. They don’t look like former bras. I’ll ask if she’ll take a photo of one.

It’s just the fact that they’re already the correct shape and they’ve multiple layers of fabric and are easily machine washable.

Obviously you’d need material that is tight weave like cotton. Lace or some synthetics with loser wave would be fairly useless.

You could probably make them out of vests, good quality pillow cases, T-shirts and so on.

Only thing I would caution is make sure you don’t use fluffy fabric that sheds particles, ensure it’s easily machine washable (not wool or silk) and make sure you can actually breathe through it.

***NB*** Using masks or any kind of face covering on babies or toddlers is not advised btw as there’s a very significant risk of suffocation.
The same would also apply to anyone who might have difficulty moving or removing the mask - eg someone with movement issues or inability to use their hands.

If you’ve lung or breathing issues, you should probably be cocooning anyway but I would suggest consulting a GP about what to wear before making any DIY devices.

railer201 · 29-04-2020 02:55PM

Yes: valved

stockshares wrote: »

Until these become widely available what is the recommended standard for homemade ones.

The expert on Rte 1 just now said whatever cloth mask you wear should be cut to shape and ideally have 3-4 layers.

I want to start making them but don't want to waste my time following some YouTube video that creates ineffective masks.

There's no recommended standard AFAIK, but what there is, is a general meeting of minds by those who are making DIY masks.

Generally for the inner and outer layers - close weave cotton, with an internal layer of filter material and perhaps it's with this layer, various innovative solutions are being used, from hoover hepa-filter material, meltblown wiper material, coffee filter paper, kitchen towel paper, or even another layer of flannel type material, such as brushed cotton.

I took my lead from the YouTube design below, based in turn on the CDC design, though with an extra permanent brushed cotton layer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FB--BOyTiU
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-sick/diy-cloth-face-coverings.html

Boggles · 29-04-2020 03:08PM

hmmm wrote: »

I'm trained how to wear an FFP2 mask

It's a fúcking mask not a flux capacitor for Christ sake.

Away With The Fairies · 29-04-2020 04:02PM

Yes: valved

stephenjmcd wrote: »

https://twitter.com/RCarrollTV/status/1255422742263988224?s=19

Their use won't be compulsory? While other countries are fining people for not wearing them, Germany fining up to 10,000 euro for not wearing masks.

I don't fancy on catching pneumonia, get a stroke or my leg amputated... Thank you very much.

hmmm · 29-04-2020 04:03PM

No: other

Boggles wrote: »

It's a fúcking mask not a flux capacitor for Christ sake.

I guarantee you that the vast majority of the public cannot achieve an airtight seal on a mask, and are walking around thinking they are invulnerable while inhaling whatever air is around them.

Sure the Boards.ie brains trust are telling everyone that masks protect other people, but the public aren't thinking that - they think masks are to protect them. Once they're out of the store they are tossing their masks and gloves into their trolleys because they don't care about you.

So masks. Sure they'll do a small bit to reduce transmission. But they are completely overblown (one previous poster said they were "pivotal for reducing the spread in Scotland", which is some stat they pulled out of their imagination).

Away With The Fairies · 29-04-2020 04:11PM

Yes: valved

Also if masks aren't going to be compulsory... Would somebody please tell the doctor in charge of our country about a thing called asymptomatic people.

iamwhoiam · 29-04-2020 04:18PM

Xertz wrote: »

A female friend of mine just cut up her old padded bras and attached the elasticated straps to the side of them and made nose pieces out of some kind of bendable wire that she stitched into the top of the bra pad.

She's wearing those as masks and they actually don't look like bras at all - they look rather like they were custom made but they're not a bad fit at all. Also they're machine washable (once you remove the metal clip)

A good laundry detergent will rip SARS-CoV-2 apart as they're full of powerful surfactants and (if bio) enzymes like protease and lipase which would break down proteins and fat molecules very effectively. Coronaviruses have a lipid envelope which is destroyed by those kinds of cleaning products.

So if you are using a washable fabric mask, just wash it in a normal wash with a main stream laundry detergent like Ariel, Persil, Aldi/Lidl own brands and it should be pretty effective.

Anyone using a bra to make a mask be sure to use the left cup only
Because you don’t want to go out looking like a right tit !!

( I stole it from a sign on the London Underground )

Billgirlylegs · 29-04-2020 04:28PM

fryup wrote: »

as long as you don't touch your nose & eyes, you should be fine

if (big if ) your mask works, there wont be any infection on your nose,
If (big if ) yout mask works, infection, outside spores, your snot and your spit are all over your mask.

And you have just handled all of that, and gone about your business.
I wouldn't assume that you will be fine

Seanergy · 29-04-2020 04:31PM

Yes: valved

hmmm wrote: »

I guarantee you that the vast majority of the public cannot achieve an airtight seal on a mask, and are walking around thinking they are invulnerable while inhaling whatever air is around them.

Sure the Boards.ie brains trust are telling everyone that masks protect other people, but the public aren't thinking that - they think masks are to protect them. Once they're out of the store they are tossing their masks and gloves into their trolleys because they don't care about you.

So masks. Sure they'll do a small bit to reduce transmission. But they are completely overblown (one previous poster said they were "pivotal for reducing the spread in Scotland", which is some stat they pulled out of their imagination).

The vast majority of the public don't have access to air tight sealing masks. You do and you are trained in how to use one, you state that masks will make a small difference yet you wait to be instructed by the HSE to wear one. I'd be surpirsed if your able to find your head so that you can put on your mask.

The majority have been purchasing surgical mask from pharmacies. The pharmacies don't give any instruction with the masks. The HSE refuses to educate the public on surgical mask wearing. The HSE is fully aware of some poor practice as stated publicy by Cormican the Cabbage on Primtime afew weeks back. He referrred to some of the public's face masks as wet tissues.

Nobody on this thread is under the illusion that wearing a mask makes them invulnerable, maybe you should start at the beginning of the thread and educate yourself. We are simply as you said trying to do a bit to reduce transmission.

We have already had the WHO state masks are no silver bullet....shot fired.

Your just trash talking

railer201 · 29-04-2020 04:34PM

Yes: valved

Masks flattened the curve in the Czech Republic.

railer201 wrote: »

Dr. Vladimir Zdimal, Czech Academy of Scientists, was on Prime Time tonight and stated that it was the use of face masks that flattened the curve in his country. It's hard to understand why people are sticking their fingers in their ears on this one.

So here's the playback of last night's Primetime and we can hear what this gentleman has to say: Scroll to 19:50 minutes

in.https://www.rte.ie/news/primetime/2020/0429/1135551-watch-the-issues-with-relaxing-covid-19-restrictions/

tromtipp · 29-04-2020 04:41PM

Yes: surgical

Today was my first time wearing my home-made mask to the shops. I'm under no illusion that it protects me from viruses, but hope it will cut down the risk of my passing anything on to anyone else. I did notice a reduction in hay fever symptoms which was interesting - and cut down the danger of my coughing or sneezing.

Once I was home I washed it at the same time as I washed my hands, and rinsed it in hot water. I'll make a few more, and at that stage will be able to just sling used ones into the washing machine - I don't machine-wash every day. It's two layers of cotton, fitted snugly under the chin and well up on the bridge of my nose. I may use an insert cut from an old shopping bag in the future.

29-04-2020 04:43PM

Boggles · 29-04-2020 04:52PM

hmmm wrote: »

I guarantee you that the vast majority of the public cannot achieve an airtight seal on a mask

They don't have to "achieve an airtight seal on a mask" - I'm not advocating scuba diving.

tromtipp · 29-04-2020 04:55PM

Yes: surgical

A plastic bag over the face sealed with duct tape would be pretty airtight, and would certainly stop you getting CV19. Or anything else, ever.

saneman · 29-04-2020 05:02PM

Yes: surgical

The French standards organisation ANFOR have previously released a document on reusable barrier masks:
Barrier masks: Guide to minimum requirements, methods of testing, making & use (in English)

It's for industrial manufacture as well as DIY so it's not the most practical document for making a mask at home but they also have online resources available for their population: https://masques-barrieres.afnor.org/home/faire-mon-masquebarriere (in French, Google translate will help).

At the very least it shows there are specifications out there that our own decision makers could use as a basis for production by Irish manufacturers, and which could then be made available to the general public.

Incidently Irish Rail have a contract up for tender for the supply of "reusable barrier masks" since last week based on that very same document.

Wibbs · 29-04-2020 05:23PM

Yes: other

Seanergy wrote: »

The HSE is fully aware of some poor practice as stated publicy by Cormican the Cabbage on Primtime afew weeks back.

The same Cormican "expert" who stated living with a known covid contact was of very low risk and to go about your business as normally as usual until they showed symptoms like "runny nose and sore throat" because they weren't shedding virus?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmKfS2TkrSo

Now we have to keep in mind that was nearly a month after the WHO, the crowd they usually tug the forelock to(when it suits it seems) had warned asymptomatic spread was a real issue, something that was reported in medical and mainstream media for weeks, that anyone who could read and who had access to google. Another perfect example of the the mediocre leading the gullible. To be fair to the gullible they don't claim to be experts.

hmmm wrote: »

I guarantee you that the vast majority of the public cannot achieve an airtight seal on a mask, and are walking around thinking they are invulnerable while inhaling whatever air is around them.

Again missing the point by a country mile, to a wilful degree at this stage.

For all your training :rolleyes: you seem to be oblivious to the fact that vanishingly few people are wearing masks that can be made to give an airtight seal in the first place? This includes the "disposable" type N95's. The only masks that can be made airtight are respirators, half or full face and military type gas masks. We are NOT talking about respirators or gas masks. We are talking about the type below that level of protection. Surgical masks and DIY type solutions.

Ah sure they're no use I hear you bleat. We'll make it a picture to illustrate. Actual laboratory test.

Now do you get it? I stick you in front of a person who has Covid19. Which side of that panel would you prefer?

As for training the public in their use. Yes it is required, but again hardly rocket surgery. In my collection of tat I have a mask made for German civilians in the second world war. It comes with a leaflet with clear instructions on how to use it and they and the British and Soviets and others were able to mobilise industry in a very short time to produce and distribute gas masks that would protect their populations from babies to pensioners(even horses. yep) against gas weapons if they were ever dropped, that required a far greater effectiveness against leaks than a surgical mask. And they did it 80 years ago, before the internet and mass communication and rapid manufacture of today. Apparently we've lost that ability and our people are stupider. Not.

Boggles · 29-04-2020 05:30PM

He is right, they are next to impossible to put on, it was 2 weeks before I realized they don't go on my bollix. I was wondering why I was getting looks.

In my defense, I had no formal "training".

Wibbs · 29-04-2020 05:40PM

Yes: other

Boggles wrote: »

He is right, they are next to impossible to put on, it was 2 weeks before I realized they don't go on my bollix. I was wondering why I was getting looks.

In some ways I'd reckon I'd find it easier to instruct someone to stick on a gas mask or respirator and get it 90% than a surgical mask. For a start you can stick a surgical mask on at all sorts of jaunty angles and it isn't uncomfortable, whereas a respirator which can be uncomfortable enough to start with, would be pretty sore pretty quickly if you put it on too arseways. Like those morons with their noses sticking out of the surgical mask. You'd want to pull some contortions to do that with a respirator.

Example on the right. The mind boggles...

Yeah Leo's not following exact protocols, but he's a politician so pics win prizes.

You always have to allow for the slowest members of a group and tailor the instructions to them.

29-04-2020 05:51PM

I'm back teaching next week after three months off. Given the choice, I wonder if anyone can really say they'd rather the students didn't wear them.

Setanter · 29-04-2020 06:15PM

Seanergy wrote: »

Hi Nick,

Having a mask is no excuse to be going out if you are not supposed to be going out. Your local pharmacy and or local shops should be stocking, ring them ahead of time to check.

If you were to state that it was essential that you have a mask, well maybe someone could arrange for you to have one! I'm not close to D5, Private message me if you need further help on this and nobody close to you is able to help you.

Prices vary for surgical masks, approx 2/3 euro.

www.pharmacy.ie are stocking them, with next day delivery €50 for a box of 50, €12.00 for a ten pack. Fairly sure couriers have cocooning procedures.
Hope that helps

Seanergy · 29-04-2020 06:25PM

Yes: valved

Xertz wrote: »

Well it just looks like a large filter mask when she’s made it up. They don’t look like former bras. I’ll ask if she’ll take a photo of one.

It’s just the fact that they’re already the correct shape and they’ve multiple layers of fabric and are easily machine washable.

You sold me on that concept today so seeing I already made a mask out of a pair of boxers I thought I might as well do a whole underwear collection.

Simple to make, snip in the middle and you have 2 masks. I transferred the eye's over to the side that has the hooks and voila....Little strip of garden twist that's removal for washing.

Still would love to see photo of her creation, like you said tight fit

Mask on.

krissovo · 29-04-2020 06:28PM

Seanergy wrote: »

You sold me on that concept today so seeing I already made a mask out of a pair of boxers I thought I might as well do a whole underwear collection.

Simple to make, snip in the middle and you have 2 masks. I transferred the eye's over to the side that has the hooks and voila....Little strip of garden twist that's removal for washing.

Still would love to see photo of her creation, like you said tight fit

Mask on.

You would look like a right tit wearing that:D

Masks

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