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Catholic Church, Mass Attendance

24567…11

Comments

  • #32
    Fritzbox
    Registered Users Posts: 488 ✭✭Fritzbox


    Thoie wrote: »
    I don't remember 1979, but here's a synopsis of a small event in 1985.

    A priest offered a car load of 10 year olds a lift back to school after an event where kids were being ferried backwards and forwards. He took off with us in the wrong direction. The whole thing was a bit inappropriate, but he didn't actually touch us or expose himself or anything. The big issue was that the teachers didn't know where we'd disappeared to, and were frantic. It was about 2 hours before he dropped us back.

    Teacher was frantic, and furious when she finally got us back. We thought we were in trouble. She drove each of us to our doors herself (we would normally have made our own way home from the school). She had a word with our parents. Later that evening when she'd calmed down, she rang each of our mothers.

    Talking to my mother about it years later, with the benefit of hindsight, we suspect that the teacher had her suspicions about the priest, but couldn't say anything. Her anger was probably fear that she'd "lost" a bunch of kids, and her fear got worse when she realised who we'd been with. Her phone calls in the evening were probably trying to assess if anything had happened.

    My mother would have been about the same age as the teacher, but in those days it would never have crossed her mind that a bunch of kids wouldn't be safe with a priest (or a guard, or a doctor, or a teacher). The teacher may have been suspicious, but she'd probably have lost her job if she ever even hinted at anything. However she never left kids alone with that priest - she never even left the room for 5 minutes if he was there.

    TL;DR - not everyone knew, but there were people who probably had suspicions, and didn't know what to do. Reporting it to anyone would have made you sound like some weird crank, as most people just couldn't fathom that priests (or doctors, or a few other professions) could do anything wrong.

    2 questions:

    Where were you with the priest for those 2 hours, where did he bring you?

    Did the priest ever get into trouble, before or after 1985? What did the teacher base her suspicions on?


  • #33
    Cobalt17
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 135 ✭✭Cobalt17


    LuasSimon wrote: »
    I attend mass every week with my family and it doesn’t do me any harm , I may not be listening to the gospel or sermon word for word but 40 minutes in my local church gives me a bit of mindfulness and get to say hello to some neighbours etc .

    Maybe I have been fortunate but any interactions I had with priests were good , other priests helped relations who fell on hard times abroad etc and others were great to get local hall upgraded etc .
    It seems the cool thing to be doing to demonise anyone who says a few prayers but I won’t be intimidated into not going to mass.

    Me too. I find it a great place to reflect. I’m not very religious, I just find it a nice place.

    Likewise, pretty much all priests I’ve encountered have done a lot of charitable work, both at home and abroad.


  • #34
    Thoie
    Registered Users Posts: 6,344 ✭✭✭Thoie


    Fritzbox wrote: »
    2 questions:

    Where were you with the priest for those 2 hours, where did he bring you?

    Did the priest ever get into trouble, before or after 1985? What did the teacher base her suspicions on?

    He brought us to very remote location "for a walk". I googled his name a few years ago, and it didn't seem he had made it into any newspapers. I moved away from the area a long time ago, so I've no idea where he might be, and wouldn't have heard if anything else had ever happened. I just googled him again there, and it looks like he's in the same diocese, but a different, smaller parish now, which I'm assuming means he's "ok".

    I've no idea what the teacher based her suspicions on, and perhaps she didn't have any, but to this day I remember her reaction. Even at that age I recognised that her reaction was very out of character The incident had always stuck in my mind, and that of my mother's, but we'd never discussed it until a few years back.


  • #35
    Edgware
    Registered Users Posts: 5,875 ✭✭✭Edgware


    Thoie wrote: »
    I don't remember 1979, but here's a synopsis of a small event in 1985.

    A priest offered a car load of 10 year olds a lift back to school after an event where kids were being ferried backwards and forwards. He took off with us in the wrong direction. The whole thing was a bit inappropriate, but he didn't actually touch us or expose himself or anything. The big issue was that the teachers didn't know where we'd disappeared to, and were frantic. It was about 2 hours before he dropped us back.

    Teacher was frantic, and furious when she finally got us back. We thought we were in trouble. She drove each of us to our doors herself (we would normally have made our own way home from the school). She had a word with our parents. Later that evening when she'd calmed down, she rang each of our mothers.

    Talking to my mother about it years later, with the benefit of hindsight, we suspect that the teacher had her suspicions about the priest, but couldn't say anything. Her anger was probably fear that she'd "lost" a bunch of kids, and her fear got worse when she realised who we'd been with. Her phone calls in the evening were probably trying to assess if anything had happened.

    My mother would have been about the same age as the teacher, but in those days it would never have crossed her mind that a bunch of kids wouldn't be safe with a priest (or a guard, or a doctor, or a teacher). The teacher may have been suspicious, but she'd probably have lost her job if she ever even hinted at anything. However she never left kids alone with that priest - she never even left the room for 5 minutes if he was there.

    TL;DR - not everyone knew, but there were people who probably had suspicions, and didn't know what to do. Reporting it to anyone would have made you sound like some weird crank, as most people just couldn't fathom that priests (or doctors, or a few other professions) could do anything wrong.


    And the point of telling us this load of nonsense is?


  • #36
    Thoie
    Registered Users Posts: 6,344 ✭✭✭Thoie


    Edgware wrote: »
    And the point of telling us this load of nonsense is?

    It was in answer to someone asking what things were like in those days, wondering if people "knew".


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  • #37
    Wtf ?
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 343 ✭✭Wtf ?


    Edgware wrote: »
    And the point of telling us this load of nonsense is?
    Always one in every forum...;)


  • #38
    Edgware
    Registered Users Posts: 5,875 ✭✭✭Edgware


    Thoie wrote: »
    It was in answer to someone asking what things were like in those days, wondering if people "knew".
    But what is it that you "knew"? Some fuddle minded cleric took the wrong way home. Wow!


  • #39
    Daisy78
    Registered Users Posts: 1,028 ✭✭✭Daisy78


    Canis Lupus wrote: »
    And yet the churches are still full of baptisms, 1st communions, confirmations and marriage and a good solid chunk of those people don't even believe but attend just because it's the done thing or because it gets their kids into the 'right' school.

    Catholicism is a long way off dying although it's taken a good hit. Will be at least another couple of generations for Ireland to be solidly free of the nonsense.

    It’s because Irish people love the ritual of it, it’s a way of marking a significant event. It’s a box ticking exercise for a lot of people with little spiritual meaning. I’m always amazed at the number of people who attend mass on a regular basis but leave their religion at the door on the way out. Putting others down, talking about people behind their backs, exploiting people, etc. I know a lot of mass goers and I certainly wouldn’t class many of them as good human beings. Weekly church attendance is their way of fooling themselves into thinking they are decent individuals.


  • #40
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    LuasSimon wrote: »
    I attend mass every week with my family and it doesn’t do me any harm , I may not be listening to the gospel or sermon word for word but 40 minutes in my local church gives me a bit of mindfulness and get to say hello to some neighbours etc .

    Maybe I have been fortunate but any interactions I had with priests were good , other priests helped relations who fell on hard times abroad etc and others were great to get local hall upgraded etc .
    It seems the cool thing to be doing to demonise anyone who says a few prayers but I won’t be intimidated into not going to mass.

    Instead of being smart and dismissing it as a desperate attempt to be cool, maybe you could consider that a lot of anti Catholic sentiment is based on personal experience of the various abuses they carried out.

    It's easy to see mass as a positive when your overall experience of the church is one of kindness, please remember that some of us still carry trauma from past abuse and find that interpretation insulting.


  • #41
    Feisar
    Registered Users Posts: 6,597 ✭✭✭Feisar


    Zebra3 wrote: »
    Fascinating.

    How were non-Catholics complicit?

    What do you find fascinating or are you just being an arsehole?

    Back in 1960 the vast majority were Catholic and the vast majority complicit.

    First they came for the socialists...



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  • #42
    IamtheWalrus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,075 ✭✭✭IamtheWalrus


    Dwindling mass attendance delights me.


  • #43
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭[Deleted User]


    Usual catholic bashing nonsense thread pops up again I see? It’s very funny how a load of people who claim to never to to mass know the numbers attending and their ages. As someone who goes every week and in my 30’s, the churches I go to see always quite full and have a large number of young people and young families in attendance.

    I’m glad to disappoint the haters but the church and mass are going nowhere.
    eviltwin wrote: »
    Instead of being smart and dismissing it as a desperate attempt to be cool, maybe you could consider that a lot of anti Catholic sentiment is based on personal experience of the various abuses they carried out.

    It's easy to see mass as a positive when your overall experience of the church is one of kindness, please remember that some of us still carry trauma from past abuse and find that interpretation insulting.

    Vastly more people were abused in their own home than any church, so by your logic people with a good family home are insulting for seeing it as a positive and happy experience.


  • #44
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Jermaine Careful Schoolteacher wrote: »
    Vastly more people were abused in their own home than any church, so by your logic people with a good family home are insulting for seeing it as a positive and happy experience.

    You are taking me up wrong. I'm aware many people have largely positive experiences with the church. It's not offensive to state that. People should defend the good religious. Its implications that critics of the Church are doing so because its cool or edgy that are unfair. The hurt caused was extensive and affected many and still continues to impact today.


  • #45
    Thelonious Monk
    Registered Users Posts: 13,701 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    Jermaine Careful Schoolteacher wrote: »
    I’m glad to disappoint the haters but the church and mass are going nowhere.

    It's already gone, I haven't known of anyone going to mass in probably 20 years, and that would have been my Grandmother.
    It usually takes a while for rural Ireland to catch up on these things, but you'll see the light eventually.


  • #46
    nelly17
    Registered Users Posts: 1,210 ✭✭✭nelly17


    Bunch of ***** who openly traded babies to good catholics who made a charitable donation. What more needs to be said vitrue me hole


  • #47
    c0w3jz6eia8h9n
    Closed Accounts Posts: 35 ✭c0w3jz6eia8h9n


    Jermaine Careful Schoolteacher wrote: »
    Usual catholic bashing nonsense thread pops up again I see? It’s very funny how a load of people who claim to never to to mass know the numbers attending and their ages. As someone who goes every week and in my 30’s, the churches I go to see always quite full and have a large number of young people and young families in attendance.

    I’m glad to disappoint the haters but the church and mass are going nowhere.

    Vastly more people were abused in their own home than any church, so by your logic people with a good family home are insulting for seeing it as a positive and happy experience.

    I'm sorry but mass attendances are going down and have been for a long time.

    As for bashing the church, yes people were abused in their own home but if you don't recognise the role of the church in actively hiding and moving pedophiles from one parish to another you've your head in the sand.

    And that's before we get into their role in blocking gay marriage, contraception, divorce , the Magdalene Laundries, the Tuam burial site of babies, and their ridiculous rules about sex before marriage. Are all of those ok in your eyes and warrant no criticism?

    For such a devote Catholic as you like to state here on boards do you adhere to all of their teachings:
    - Have you had sex before marriage?
    - Have you used contraception?
    - Do you read the bible?
    - Do you regularly go to confession and tell the priest your actual sins?

    Or are you like many people and just go to mass and go through the motions and think you're great while looking down on others that don't?

    You like to regularly bash non-Catholics on here but I'd say you do the bare minimum yourself.


  • #48
    forgottenhills
    Registered Users Posts: 441 ✭✭forgottenhills


    First of all I want to say that i am not religious.

    I was a teenager in 1979 and I grew up in a rural part of Ireland where the influence of the church was very strong so I am glad to see the influence wane and hopefully religion now will only be for those with genuine faith and the Church/State separation will be secure.

    Having said that growing up in the 1970's I wasn't aware of or heard of any sexual abuse by members of the Church. This included 5 years in a boarding school where there were many priests and where I genuinely never heard of any incidents, past or present. So abuse wasn't widespread but obviously it was terrible that some did happen. The generation older than mine, and even mine, were generally shocked when allegations surfaced about abuse by priests as many had never heard about it previously, even as a rumour.

    My memories of the Pope's visit in 1979 in being dragged along as a teenager by my school. Many people went there out of curiosity more than anything else as it was the first Popes visit here for a very long time. Even at that time there was a lot of lip service involved in going to Mass as people felt peer pressure in going there. Some also went there for the social event aspect of it. I remember lots of men lining up outside the Church after Mass every Sunday to have a chat. In rural areas you might not meet friends or neighbours from one end of the week to the next unless you were in the habit of going to the pub, which may people didn't ever. We are now in an era where people speak less to each other than they did then, face to face meeting or visits to houses were a more common thing back then. The pace of life was slower.

    For the generation older than mine that grew up in the 1920's and 30's they were somewhat brainwashed into religion but you have to remember that the times they grew up in were tough and perhaps religion was one of the few escapes and hopes that they had. People often joined the priesthood at that time as a type of career option as there were not that many other career outlets for men then.

    Priests did have too much influence in parishes, although some of them did great work in the community so the influence of the church was not completely black and white. For instance churches set up many of the schools in the country. The bad news is that they went on to control these schools but the good aspect is that they actually did the work to set up schools which the State may not have done otherwise. Of course also the role of women in the church was a joke and remains so.

    But I am very happy to see the role and control of religion in society much diminished, hopefully the current era of fake baptisms and communions in order to secure school entry will come to an end, and religious services will just be attended by the religious. The control of such a high proportion of schools by religions needs to come to an end, although this will be difficult as so many schools are built on church-owned lands.


  • #49
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 19,906 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    Jermaine Careful Schoolteacher wrote: »
    Usual catholic bashing nonsense thread pops up again I see? It’s very funny how a load of people who claim to never to to mass know the numbers attending and their ages. As someone who goes every week and in my 30’s, the churches I go to see always quite full and have a large number of young people and young families in attendance.

    I’m glad to disappoint the haters but the church and mass are going nowhere.



    Vastly more people were abused in their own home than any church, so by your logic people with a good family home are insulting for seeing it as a positive and happy experience.

    Of course you go and only see church packed. I'm sure your friends and community are all mass goers too. And I'm sure you never even met someone who doesn't go to mass, never been to a secular wedding, naming ceremony or even spoken to someone who has. Isn't that the way you normally experience things?

    Even when the stats will tell you the church is dying on its feet, losing gate receipts every year, losing in terms of percentage of the population identifying as Catholic, losing influence over government and the voters. But you almost certainly can't see it.

    But the point about the abuse in the home would be an interesting comparison IF the home abusers were part of an international club which used it's influence to shield them from justice, intimidate victims, cover up and move abusers to other areas to perpetuate the abuse. IF those things applied to abusers in the home, then it would be an interesting comparison. But they don't, so it isn't.


  • #50
    Thelonious Monk
    Registered Users Posts: 13,701 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    I think there's a cohort of rural people like Nox who just go to mass because they're so against new ideas and progressive thinking - sure it's all city slicker vegan hipster nonsense this not going to mass carry on.
    Religion is the manipulation and brainwashing of people based on lies, no matter what way you look at it, so it should be rightly called out as the nonsense that it is.


  • #51
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    Jermaine Careful Schoolteacher wrote: »
    Usual catholic bashing nonsense thread pops up again I see? It’s very funny how a load of people who claim to never to to mass know the numbers attending and their ages. As someone who goes every week and in my 30’s, the churches I go to see always quite full and have a large number of young people and young families in attendance.

    I’m glad to disappoint the haters but the church and mass are going nowhere.

    You don’t need to attend mass to observe that many parishes are holding less masses than they did a decade ago or twenty years ago. My parents’ parish has been refining the number for years and there is now less than half the masses said in the parish than there was at the turn of the century. I went to Christmas Eve Mass this year with my parents because they wanted me to as my father was doing a choir solo and the church wasn’t even half full. My father said that the Christmas Day Mass was busier but really both would have been packed not that long ago.


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  • #52
    erada
    Registered Users Posts: 30 ✭erada


    LuasSimon wrote: »
    I attend mass every week with my family and it doesn’t do me any harm , I may not be listening to the gospel or sermon word for word but 40 minutes in my local church gives me a bit of mindfulness and get to say hello to some neighbours etc .

    Maybe I have been fortunate but any interactions I had with priests were good , other priests helped relations who fell on hard times abroad etc and others were great to get local hall upgraded etc .
    It seems the cool thing to be doing to demonise anyone who says a few prayers but I won’t be intimidated into not going to mass.

    Good for you, well said, I feel the same myself.


  • #53
    Electric Sheep
    Registered Users Posts: 2,102 ✭✭✭Electric Sheep


    Thelonious Monk wrote: »
    I think there's a cohort of rural people like Nox who just go to mass because they're so against new ideas and progressive thinking - sure it's all city slicker vegan hipster nonsense this not going to mass carry on.
    Religion is the manipulation and brainwashing of people based on lies, no matter what way you look at it, so it should be rightly called out as the nonsense that it is.
    I rather suspect that Nox's mass attendance is more mouth than action - I doubt he gets his ass out of bed for mass very often. Words are cheap.


  • #54
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 19,906 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    Electric Sheep wrote: »
    I rather suspect that Nox's mass attendance is more mouth than action - I doubt he gets his ass out of bed for mass very often. Words are cheap.

    If someone says they go to mass I'd be inclined to take them at their word. It's when they deny the decline in the number of people attending mass that I would say they're talking nonsense.


  • #55
    Thelonious Monk
    Registered Users Posts: 13,701 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    I have no problem with the Catholic church apart from them being involved with hospitals and schools etc. Also why do we have to have the angelus in this day and age?


  • #56
    RobertKK
    Registered Users Posts: 33,722 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    Mass attendances usually decline in good times and can increase in bad times.

    Forget about the religion part of it, but churches can be very peaceful places for the mind. Some churches are very old, hundreds and hundreds of year old and can be pleasing to the eye.

    My view is we are all trying to make it through this life, and what works for one person doesn't necessarily work for someone else. A faith does help some people, but if one doesn't have a faith then it doesn't help that person. I don't understand what a person gets out of being bitter towards a religion, it is not causing happiness for them. I don't know why people want to hang onto the unhappiness, while wanting to take away what brings happiness to others.

    I use to view people based on what they believed in terms of them having a religion or none. But I know looking back I was wrong. The main aim in this life is to survive and to cope. There are various things people do that helps them cope, religion is one for some. Some take it too far, but then some do with other coping mechanisms too.
    People have a lot of different coping mechanisms and this is one that can get overlooked. Maybe as a person gets older and is getting closer to facing their destiny, the purpose of their life can come into question, for some maybe death terrifies them as its the final destination, for some death is just part of a longer journey and in these cases maybe they are having a better life due to their faith.
    For this reason I don't think religion of any kind will be disappearing anytime soon, but the churches are like the shops on the high street and will have to move with the technological age.


  • #57
    RobertKK
    Registered Users Posts: 33,722 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    Thelonious Monk wrote: »
    I have no problem with the Catholic church apart from them being involved with hospitals and schools etc. Also why do we have to have the angelus in this day and age?

    The Angelus is now for everyone, it is why RTE does have it on TV when if it was Catholics it would not be on air.

    If the Catholic Church was removed from health and education around the world, the consequences would not be good, given they are the biggest providers in these areas outside of what countries provide, for millions it is their only means to get educated or receive healthcare.

    I do read foreign newspapers, one report I read was how the Vatican used their budget that is for charity to buy ventilators for hospitals in Italy, Madrid and Romania.
    That is also technically getting involved.


  • #58
    LuasSimon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,208 ✭✭✭LuasSimon


    As said earlier I attend mass every week with my family, i miss it now that its not on. Never heard of any issue with the many priests in our parish over the years . A number of them did significant work fundraising for new community hall and raising funds each year for the sick of the parish to go to lourdes not to mention all the usual visiting the elderly in their houses or ill people in hospital . It is a peaceful 40 minutes or so for those in attendance every week and there is a good sense of community meeting other members of your parish each week. Whilst the packed days are gone , wed still have 2-300 saturday night and sunday in a parish of circa 2K people so 600 out of 2000 is 30% regular catholics which is plenty and easter and christmas might be 1000 for the two masses.

    The only case of sex abuse heard of in our parish were two people in the soccer club who never got dealt with due to cover ups in their world too . It never stopped me watching soccer or going to soccer matchs ??

    Of course there were priests who did very wrong but not all priests or Catholics are bad people indeed many priests did great work including two in London who saved my uncle who fell on extremely bad times . Why do any of us that are happy to go to church and say a few prayers have to be ridiculed by anyone else. People go to mosques or Fine Gael Meetings or Sinn Fein meetings and whilst ive no interest it doesnt mean i go round making little or harassing those people. There are plenty of decent Catholics out there .


  • #59
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭[Deleted User]


    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    . I went to Christmas Eve Mass this year with my parents because they wanted me to as my father was doing a choir solo and the church wasn’t even half full. My father said that the Christmas Day Mass was busier but really both would have been packed not that long ago.

    On the other hand you need to be 45 mins early for mass to get a seat on Christmas Eve in my parish church, you need to be 20 to 30 mins early to just get into the church. I was 20 mins early last year and just about got into the hall a good few people had to stand outside.
    Electric Sheep wrote: »
    I rather suspect that Nox's mass attendance is more mouth than action - I doubt he gets his ass out of bed for mass very often. Words are cheap.

    Nonsense, I attend mass almost every weekend. What great notion do you have that I wouldn’t? Also you do realise there is mass at plenty of different times? I’d go on Saturday evening quite often for example.
    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    If someone says they go to mass I'd be inclined to take them at their word. It's when they deny the decline in the number of people attending mass that I would say they're talking nonsense.

    I didn’t say there was no decline, there is obviously much less attending now than years ago. I’d question though saying there has been much if any of a decline in recent years and I’d severely question people saying younger people don’t attend mass.

    Just look at that nonsense comment by a poster saying they don’t know anyone who has gone to mass on 20 years and that was their grandmother, absolute nonsense of the highest order. I see lots of people in the 20’s, 30’s and 40’s in mass. Lots of teens with their parents, lots of young kids with parents in the late 20’s and 30’s etc. There is a lot younger demographic who go to mass than some believe.


  • #60
    Better Than Christ
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,135 ✭✭✭Better Than Christ


    Jermaine Careful Schoolteacher wrote: »
    Usual catholic bashing nonsense thread pops up again I see? It’s very funny how a load of people who claim to never to to mass know the numbers attending and their ages. As someone who goes every week and in my 30’s, the churches I go to see always quite full and have a large number of young people and young families in attendance.

    I go to mass twice a year in two different churches - for my grandparents' and my mother's anniversary masses. They're nowhere near 'quite full'. Mostly grannies and very few families. As a child from the '80s until the mid-90s, I was forced to go every Sunday and on holy days. They were full back then alright. If you arrived late, you'd be standing down the back. There were three masses on a Sunday back then too. Now there's only one. Not enough priests, not enough parishioners.

    I've no interest in bashing the Catholic church, by the way. There's no point.

    giphy.gif


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  • #61
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 19,906 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    Jermaine Careful Schoolteacher wrote: »
    I didn’t say there was no decline, there is obviously much less attending now than years ago. I’d question though saying there has been much if any of a decline in recent years and I’d severely question people saying younger people don’t attend mass.

    Sure. And if anyone ever tells me that no young people go to mass, I'd dismiss that too. But obviously far fewer young people go to mass than years gone by and that number is falling.

    Fewer people having church involvement in significant occasions, like weddings, too. Now, I'm sure you don't have any experience of any of that. And I'm sure you and all the people you do know, do be always in mass. But the trend exists whether you know about it or not.


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