Catholic Church, Mass Attendance

Wtf ?

n 1979, Pope John Paul II visited the Republic of Ireland, and approximately 2.7 million people – 79% of the population – came out to honour him. At the time, contraception, divorce, and homosexuality were illegal, and John Paul II was a god. All gone and I am glad. Most priests over 70 and only a handful training in Maynooth. They ruled for too long with an Iron fist and nobody,Even the government dared question them. The Chickens finally came home to roost and it all came out, Finally. I always hoped I would see it in my lifetime and I have.
I am almost 70 and saw first hand the abuse,the cover up's,denials, sent to a different parish etc. I will die happy.

KungPao

Sanctimonious scumbags, made my life a bloody misery.

Canis Lupus

And yet the churches are still full of baptisms, 1st communions, confirmations and marriage and a good solid chunk of those people don't even believe but attend just because it's the done thing or because it gets their kids into the 'right' school.

Catholicism is a long way off dying although it's taken a good hit. Will be at least another couple of generations for Ireland to be solidly free of the nonsense.

lalababa

Yep, alot done but more to do I'm afraid: baptism as a function of primary school enrollment and endoctrination of children including holy Communion, confirmation. Church weddings and church funerals. They know how to keep you literally from the cradle to the grave.
I have no problem with 99% of Christs' teachings. The basic Christian code of ethics is a very good staple of morality.
However the cult of the RC church in Ireland must be obliterated.
The only thing is , if there is a vacuum, what will come or be in it's place??Political tribalism/consumerism/vanity/sport/enlightenment/Sodom & Gomorrah/ ??and whatever you're having yourself.

Birdie Num Num

Wtf ? wrote: »

n 1979, Pope John Paul II visited the Republic of Ireland, and approximately 2.7 million people – 79% of the population – came out to honour him. At the time, contraception, divorce, and homosexuality were illegal, and John Paul II was a god. All gone and I am glad. Most priests over 70 and only a handful training in Maynooth. They ruled for too long with an Iron fist and nobody,Even the government dared question them. The Chickens finally came home to roost and it all came out, Finally. I always hoped I would see it in my lifetime and I have.
I am almost 70 and saw first hand the abuse,the cover up's,denials, sent to a different parish etc. I will die happy.

What as your experience of 1979 and why did you think John Paul II was a god?

You're almost 70 and your username is wtf?..

Yeah..

StupidLikeAFox

Wtf ? wrote: »

I am almost 70 and saw first hand the abuse,the cover up's,denials, sent to a different parish etc. I will die happy.

What was it like at the time? I'm in my 30s so only know about the aftermath, the trials etc. Back in the day did everyone know what was going on?

lalababa

Also the sex discrimination of females, doctrine portraying females as vessels of evil.

Wtf ?

Birdie Num Num wrote: »

What as your experience of 1979 and why did you think John Paul II was a god?

I never thought he was but the numbers speak for themselves. 5 masses on Sunday on the hour and massive churches 90% packed every hour. We had so many priests that we shipped them worldwide especially the missions in Africa and suchlike. I lived close to Clonliffe Collage close to Croke Park. They had 4/500 priests in training at any one time, Now empty. Gaa park cars there on big matchdays all empty now

topper75

Timed just as many developing world people arriving, bringing their variants.
There will never be a day when Ireland is truly unburdened of this thing. It'll haunt us in some guise forever.

Zebra3

Shame on anyone supporting such criminality.

Feisar

Zebra3 wrote: »

Shame on anyone supporting such criminality.

That'll be pretty much everyone so.

In all the various documentaries on the mother and baby homes I never heard of the bailiff/sheriff/Gardaí coming to a house to take a pregnant woman away.

Zebra3

Zebra3 wrote: »

Shame on anyone supporting such criminality.

Supporting criminality is shameful indeed.

Maybe be more specific about "supporting" though.

Cee-Jay-Cee

I think the current restrictions will damage the church even more than previous. People have been given a dispensation from attending mass and many will be slow to return, after all if there is no need to go to mass, then why go?

I don't go to mass as its a complete load of nonsense/rubbish/fairy tales but I know many that do and some have said they don't think they'll be returning when the restrictions are lifted.

Mass gatherings (no pun intended) will be the last restriction lifted and could be years away so thankfully the church wont be getting its crowds back anytime soon.

whisky_galore

When the current batch of dyed in the wool elderly mass goers die off, attendances will go through the floor, their children and grandchildren no longer will have to keep them happy with empty gestures.

Edgware

Feisar wrote: »

That'll be pretty much everyone so.

In all the various documentaries on the mother and baby homes I never heard of the bailiff/sheriff/Gardaí coming to a house to take a pregnant woman away.

But it must be true. It was on d'telly. The families couldn't stop it

whisky_galore

Edgware wrote: »

But it must be true. It was on d'telly. The families couldn't stop it

People were too gutless and brainwashed to stop it.

Tchaikovsky

In 1961, 1% of the Irish population was either a priest, nun or monk.

Mrs OBumble

whisky_galore wrote: »

People were too gutless and brainwashed to stop it.

Some families did though.

If some did then others could have, but chose not to. Horrible starts at home..

Sardonicat

whisky_galore wrote: »

People were too gutless and brainwashed to stop it.

Families were usually complicit and often instrumental in the detaining of women in laundries. This was a cultural attitude to (poor) women who didn't tow the virtous line in some way and was condoned by almost every facet of society.

Zebra3

Feisar wrote: »

That'll be pretty much everyone so.

In all the various documentaries on the mother and baby homes I never heard of the bailiff/sheriff/Gardaí coming to a house to take a pregnant woman away.

I don't put money in their pockets nor do I sign up new recruits for them.

Deleted User wrote: »

Supporting criminality is shameful indeed.

Maybe be more specific about "supporting" though.

The RC church is a criminal organisation that has protected child rapists and kidnapped women.

Putting money in their pockets or signing up new recruits is supporting criminality.

looksee

Deleted User wrote: »

You're almost 70 and your username is wtf?..

Yeah..

That says so much more about you than the OP!

Feisar

Zebra3 wrote: »

I don't put money in their pockets nor do I sign up new recruits for them.



The RC church is a criminal organisation that has protected child rapists and kidnapped women.

Putting money in their pockets or signing up new recruits is supporting criminality.

Apologies, I was referring to Ireland in the past, society as a whole were complicit.

Thelonious Monk

It looks like people are starting to stop paying lip service to ridiculous traditions

https://twitter.com/jlpobrien/status/1255126117519949825

LuasSimon

I attend mass every week with my family and it doesn’t do me any harm , I may not be listening to the gospel or sermon word for word but 40 minutes in my local church gives me a bit of mindfulness and get to say hello to some neighbours etc .

Maybe I have been fortunate but any interactions I had with priests were good , other priests helped relations who fell on hard times abroad etc and others were great to get local hall upgraded etc .
It seems the cool thing to be doing to demonise anyone who says a few prayers but I won’t be intimidated into not going to mass.

Thelonious Monk

LuasSimon wrote: »

I attend mass every week with my family and it doesn’t do me any harm , I may not be listening to the gospel or sermon word for word but 40 minutes in my local church gives me a bit of mindfulness and get to say hello to some neighbours etc .

Maybe I have been fortunate but any interactions I had with priests were good , other priests helped relations who fell on hard times abroad etc and others were great to get local hall upgraded etc .
It seems the cool thing to be doing to demonise anyone who says a few prayers but I won’t be intimidated into not going to mass.

It hasn't been "cool" to not believe in this nonsense since the 1950s, it's just common sense

Dravokivich

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

It looks like people are starting to stop paying lip service to ridiculous traditions

https://twitter.com/jlpobrien/status/1255126117519949825

Well, you've also got divorced people remarrying along with LGTB... who the church won't host. It won't be the main reason for that drop. But it'll contribute to a chunk of it.

Bobblehats

No mass gatherings is what they’re sayin so I hereby am sending out an invite to anyone that wishes to partake in the structuring of a place of worship amidst our very own commune.

What I will need is a few upstanding citizens, some tools whatever provisions you can bring and from there the good lord should provide. And by the grace of god we should have our own self serving community we can raise our women and children in out of harms way, what say

Zebra3

Feisar wrote: »

Apologies, I was referring to Ireland in the past, society as a whole were complicit.

Fascinating.

How were non-Catholics complicit?

hurler32

Zebra3 wrote: »

Fascinating.

How were non-Catholics complicit?

Plenty of protestant clergy as well for starters, many involved in swimming clubs, police, soccer clubs etc

Thoie

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

What was it like at the time? I'm in my 30s so only know about the aftermath, the trials etc. Back in the day did everyone know what was going on?

I don't remember 1979, but here's a synopsis of a small event in 1985.

A priest offered a car load of 10 year olds a lift back to school after an event where kids were being ferried backwards and forwards. He took off with us in the wrong direction. The whole thing was a bit inappropriate, but he didn't actually touch us or expose himself or anything. The big issue was that the teachers didn't know where we'd disappeared to, and were frantic. It was about 2 hours before he dropped us back.

Teacher was frantic, and furious when she finally got us back. We thought we were in trouble. She drove each of us to our doors herself (we would normally have made our own way home from the school). She had a word with our parents. Later that evening when she'd calmed down, she rang each of our mothers.

Talking to my mother about it years later, with the benefit of hindsight, we suspect that the teacher had her suspicions about the priest, but couldn't say anything. Her anger was probably fear that she'd "lost" a bunch of kids, and her fear got worse when she realised who we'd been with. Her phone calls in the evening were probably trying to assess if anything had happened.

My mother would have been about the same age as the teacher, but in those days it would never have crossed her mind that a bunch of kids wouldn't be safe with a priest (or a guard, or a doctor, or a teacher). The teacher may have been suspicious, but she'd probably have lost her job if she ever even hinted at anything. However she never left kids alone with that priest - she never even left the room for 5 minutes if he was there.

TL;DR - not everyone knew, but there were people who probably had suspicions, and didn't know what to do. Reporting it to anyone would have made you sound like some weird crank, as most people just couldn't fathom that priests (or doctors, or a few other professions) could do anything wrong.

Fritzbox

Thoie wrote: »

I don't remember 1979, but here's a synopsis of a small event in 1985.

A priest offered a car load of 10 year olds a lift back to school after an event where kids were being ferried backwards and forwards. He took off with us in the wrong direction. The whole thing was a bit inappropriate, but he didn't actually touch us or expose himself or anything. The big issue was that the teachers didn't know where we'd disappeared to, and were frantic. It was about 2 hours before he dropped us back.

Teacher was frantic, and furious when she finally got us back. We thought we were in trouble. She drove each of us to our doors herself (we would normally have made our own way home from the school). She had a word with our parents. Later that evening when she'd calmed down, she rang each of our mothers.

Talking to my mother about it years later, with the benefit of hindsight, we suspect that the teacher had her suspicions about the priest, but couldn't say anything. Her anger was probably fear that she'd "lost" a bunch of kids, and her fear got worse when she realised who we'd been with. Her phone calls in the evening were probably trying to assess if anything had happened.

My mother would have been about the same age as the teacher, but in those days it would never have crossed her mind that a bunch of kids wouldn't be safe with a priest (or a guard, or a doctor, or a teacher). The teacher may have been suspicious, but she'd probably have lost her job if she ever even hinted at anything. However she never left kids alone with that priest - she never even left the room for 5 minutes if he was there.

TL;DR - not everyone knew, but there were people who probably had suspicions, and didn't know what to do. Reporting it to anyone would have made you sound like some weird crank, as most people just couldn't fathom that priests (or doctors, or a few other professions) could do anything wrong.

2 questions:

Where were you with the priest for those 2 hours, where did he bring you?

Did the priest ever get into trouble, before or after 1985? What did the teacher base her suspicions on?

Cobalt17

LuasSimon wrote: »

I attend mass every week with my family and it doesn’t do me any harm , I may not be listening to the gospel or sermon word for word but 40 minutes in my local church gives me a bit of mindfulness and get to say hello to some neighbours etc .

Maybe I have been fortunate but any interactions I had with priests were good , other priests helped relations who fell on hard times abroad etc and others were great to get local hall upgraded etc .
It seems the cool thing to be doing to demonise anyone who says a few prayers but I won’t be intimidated into not going to mass.

Me too. I find it a great place to reflect. I’m not very religious, I just find it a nice place.

Likewise, pretty much all priests I’ve encountered have done a lot of charitable work, both at home and abroad.

Thoie

Fritzbox wrote: »

2 questions:

Where were you with the priest for those 2 hours, where did he bring you?

Did the priest ever get into trouble, before or after 1985? What did the teacher base her suspicions on?

He brought us to very remote location "for a walk". I googled his name a few years ago, and it didn't seem he had made it into any newspapers. I moved away from the area a long time ago, so I've no idea where he might be, and wouldn't have heard if anything else had ever happened. I just googled him again there, and it looks like he's in the same diocese, but a different, smaller parish now, which I'm assuming means he's "ok".

I've no idea what the teacher based her suspicions on, and perhaps she didn't have any, but to this day I remember her reaction. Even at that age I recognised that her reaction was very out of character The incident had always stuck in my mind, and that of my mother's, but we'd never discussed it until a few years back.

Edgware

Thoie wrote: »

I don't remember 1979, but here's a synopsis of a small event in 1985.

A priest offered a car load of 10 year olds a lift back to school after an event where kids were being ferried backwards and forwards. He took off with us in the wrong direction. The whole thing was a bit inappropriate, but he didn't actually touch us or expose himself or anything. The big issue was that the teachers didn't know where we'd disappeared to, and were frantic. It was about 2 hours before he dropped us back.

Teacher was frantic, and furious when she finally got us back. We thought we were in trouble. She drove each of us to our doors herself (we would normally have made our own way home from the school). She had a word with our parents. Later that evening when she'd calmed down, she rang each of our mothers.

Talking to my mother about it years later, with the benefit of hindsight, we suspect that the teacher had her suspicions about the priest, but couldn't say anything. Her anger was probably fear that she'd "lost" a bunch of kids, and her fear got worse when she realised who we'd been with. Her phone calls in the evening were probably trying to assess if anything had happened.

My mother would have been about the same age as the teacher, but in those days it would never have crossed her mind that a bunch of kids wouldn't be safe with a priest (or a guard, or a doctor, or a teacher). The teacher may have been suspicious, but she'd probably have lost her job if she ever even hinted at anything. However she never left kids alone with that priest - she never even left the room for 5 minutes if he was there.

TL;DR - not everyone knew, but there were people who probably had suspicions, and didn't know what to do. Reporting it to anyone would have made you sound like some weird crank, as most people just couldn't fathom that priests (or doctors, or a few other professions) could do anything wrong.

And the point of telling us this load of nonsense is?

Thoie

Edgware wrote: »

And the point of telling us this load of nonsense is?

It was in answer to someone asking what things were like in those days, wondering if people "knew".

Wtf ?

Edgware wrote: »

And the point of telling us this load of nonsense is?

Always one in every forum...;)

Edgware

Thoie wrote: »

It was in answer to someone asking what things were like in those days, wondering if people "knew".

But what is it that you "knew"? Some fuddle minded cleric took the wrong way home. Wow!

Daisy78

Canis Lupus wrote: »

And yet the churches are still full of baptisms, 1st communions, confirmations and marriage and a good solid chunk of those people don't even believe but attend just because it's the done thing or because it gets their kids into the 'right' school.

Catholicism is a long way off dying although it's taken a good hit. Will be at least another couple of generations for Ireland to be solidly free of the nonsense.

It’s because Irish people love the ritual of it, it’s a way of marking a significant event. It’s a box ticking exercise for a lot of people with little spiritual meaning. I’m always amazed at the number of people who attend mass on a regular basis but leave their religion at the door on the way out. Putting others down, talking about people behind their backs, exploiting people, etc. I know a lot of mass goers and I certainly wouldn’t class many of them as good human beings. Weekly church attendance is their way of fooling themselves into thinking they are decent individuals.

eviltwin

LuasSimon wrote: »

I attend mass every week with my family and it doesn’t do me any harm , I may not be listening to the gospel or sermon word for word but 40 minutes in my local church gives me a bit of mindfulness and get to say hello to some neighbours etc .

Maybe I have been fortunate but any interactions I had with priests were good , other priests helped relations who fell on hard times abroad etc and others were great to get local hall upgraded etc .
It seems the cool thing to be doing to demonise anyone who says a few prayers but I won’t be intimidated into not going to mass.

Instead of being smart and dismissing it as a desperate attempt to be cool, maybe you could consider that a lot of anti Catholic sentiment is based on personal experience of the various abuses they carried out.

It's easy to see mass as a positive when your overall experience of the church is one of kindness, please remember that some of us still carry trauma from past abuse and find that interpretation insulting.

Feisar

Zebra3 wrote: »

Fascinating.

How were non-Catholics complicit?

What do you find fascinating or are you just being an arsehole?

Back in 1960 the vast majority were Catholic and the vast majority complicit.

IamtheWalrus

Dwindling mass attendance delights me.

eviltwin

Usual catholic bashing nonsense thread pops up again I see? It’s very funny how a load of people who claim to never to to mass know the numbers attending and their ages. As someone who goes every week and in my 30’s, the churches I go to see always quite full and have a large number of young people and young families in attendance.

I’m glad to disappoint the haters but the church and mass are going nowhere.

eviltwin wrote: »

Instead of being smart and dismissing it as a desperate attempt to be cool, maybe you could consider that a lot of anti Catholic sentiment is based on personal experience of the various abuses they carried out.

It's easy to see mass as a positive when your overall experience of the church is one of kindness, please remember that some of us still carry trauma from past abuse and find that interpretation insulting.

Vastly more people were abused in their own home than any church, so by your logic people with a good family home are insulting for seeing it as a positive and happy experience.

eviltwin

Jermaine Careful Schoolteacher wrote: »

Vastly more people were abused in their own home than any church, so by your logic people with a good family home are insulting for seeing it as a positive and happy experience.

You are taking me up wrong. I'm aware many people have largely positive experiences with the church. It's not offensive to state that. People should defend the good religious. Its implications that critics of the Church are doing so because its cool or edgy that are unfair. The hurt caused was extensive and affected many and still continues to impact today.

Thelonious Monk

Jermaine Careful Schoolteacher wrote: »

I’m glad to disappoint the haters but the church and mass are going nowhere.

It's already gone, I haven't known of anyone going to mass in probably 20 years, and that would have been my Grandmother.
It usually takes a while for rural Ireland to catch up on these things, but you'll see the light eventually.

nelly17

Bunch of ***** who openly traded babies to good catholics who made a charitable donation. What more needs to be said vitrue me hole

c0w3jz6eia8h9n

Jermaine Careful Schoolteacher wrote: »

Usual catholic bashing nonsense thread pops up again I see? It’s very funny how a load of people who claim to never to to mass know the numbers attending and their ages. As someone who goes every week and in my 30’s, the churches I go to see always quite full and have a large number of young people and young families in attendance.

I’m glad to disappoint the haters but the church and mass are going nowhere.

Vastly more people were abused in their own home than any church, so by your logic people with a good family home are insulting for seeing it as a positive and happy experience.

I'm sorry but mass attendances are going down and have been for a long time.

As for bashing the church, yes people were abused in their own home but if you don't recognise the role of the church in actively hiding and moving pedophiles from one parish to another you've your head in the sand.

And that's before we get into their role in blocking gay marriage, contraception, divorce , the Magdalene Laundries, the Tuam burial site of babies, and their ridiculous rules about sex before marriage. Are all of those ok in your eyes and warrant no criticism?

For such a devote Catholic as you like to state here on boards do you adhere to all of their teachings:
- Have you had sex before marriage?
- Have you used contraception?
- Do you read the bible?
- Do you regularly go to confession and tell the priest your actual sins?

Or are you like many people and just go to mass and go through the motions and think you're great while looking down on others that don't?

You like to regularly bash non-Catholics on here but I'd say you do the bare minimum yourself.

forgottenhills

First of all I want to say that i am not religious.

I was a teenager in 1979 and I grew up in a rural part of Ireland where the influence of the church was very strong so I am glad to see the influence wane and hopefully religion now will only be for those with genuine faith and the Church/State separation will be secure.

Having said that growing up in the 1970's I wasn't aware of or heard of any sexual abuse by members of the Church. This included 5 years in a boarding school where there were many priests and where I genuinely never heard of any incidents, past or present. So abuse wasn't widespread but obviously it was terrible that some did happen. The generation older than mine, and even mine, were generally shocked when allegations surfaced about abuse by priests as many had never heard about it previously, even as a rumour.

My memories of the Pope's visit in 1979 in being dragged along as a teenager by my school. Many people went there out of curiosity more than anything else as it was the first Popes visit here for a very long time. Even at that time there was a lot of lip service involved in going to Mass as people felt peer pressure in going there. Some also went there for the social event aspect of it. I remember lots of men lining up outside the Church after Mass every Sunday to have a chat. In rural areas you might not meet friends or neighbours from one end of the week to the next unless you were in the habit of going to the pub, which may people didn't ever. We are now in an era where people speak less to each other than they did then, face to face meeting or visits to houses were a more common thing back then. The pace of life was slower.

For the generation older than mine that grew up in the 1920's and 30's they were somewhat brainwashed into religion but you have to remember that the times they grew up in were tough and perhaps religion was one of the few escapes and hopes that they had. People often joined the priesthood at that time as a type of career option as there were not that many other career outlets for men then.

Priests did have too much influence in parishes, although some of them did great work in the community so the influence of the church was not completely black and white. For instance churches set up many of the schools in the country. The bad news is that they went on to control these schools but the good aspect is that they actually did the work to set up schools which the State may not have done otherwise. Of course also the role of women in the church was a joke and remains so.

But I am very happy to see the role and control of religion in society much diminished, hopefully the current era of fake baptisms and communions in order to secure school entry will come to an end, and religious services will just be attended by the religious. The control of such a high proportion of schools by religions needs to come to an end, although this will be difficult as so many schools are built on church-owned lands.

El_Duderino 09

Jermaine Careful Schoolteacher wrote: »

Usual catholic bashing nonsense thread pops up again I see? It’s very funny how a load of people who claim to never to to mass know the numbers attending and their ages. As someone who goes every week and in my 30’s, the churches I go to see always quite full and have a large number of young people and young families in attendance.

I’m glad to disappoint the haters but the church and mass are going nowhere.



Vastly more people were abused in their own home than any church, so by your logic people with a good family home are insulting for seeing it as a positive and happy experience.

Of course you go and only see church packed. I'm sure your friends and community are all mass goers too. And I'm sure you never even met someone who doesn't go to mass, never been to a secular wedding, naming ceremony or even spoken to someone who has. Isn't that the way you normally experience things?

Even when the stats will tell you the church is dying on its feet, losing gate receipts every year, losing in terms of percentage of the population identifying as Catholic, losing influence over government and the voters. But you almost certainly can't see it.

But the point about the abuse in the home would be an interesting comparison IF the home abusers were part of an international club which used it's influence to shield them from justice, intimidate victims, cover up and move abusers to other areas to perpetuate the abuse. IF those things applied to abusers in the home, then it would be an interesting comparison. But they don't, so it isn't.

Thelonious Monk

I think there's a cohort of rural people like Nox who just go to mass because they're so against new ideas and progressive thinking - sure it's all city slicker vegan hipster nonsense this not going to mass carry on.
Religion is the manipulation and brainwashing of people based on lies, no matter what way you look at it, so it should be rightly called out as the nonsense that it is.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Jermaine Careful Schoolteacher wrote: »

Usual catholic bashing nonsense thread pops up again I see? It’s very funny how a load of people who claim to never to to mass know the numbers attending and their ages. As someone who goes every week and in my 30’s, the churches I go to see always quite full and have a large number of young people and young families in attendance.

I’m glad to disappoint the haters but the church and mass are going nowhere.

You don’t need to attend mass to observe that many parishes are holding less masses than they did a decade ago or twenty years ago. My parents’ parish has been refining the number for years and there is now less than half the masses said in the parish than there was at the turn of the century. I went to Christmas Eve Mass this year with my parents because they wanted me to as my father was doing a choir solo and the church wasn’t even half full. My father said that the Christmas Day Mass was busier but really both would have been packed not that long ago.