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Relaxation of restrictions

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Comments

  • #7652
    CtevenSrowder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,909 ✭✭✭CtevenSrowder


    KiKi III wrote: »
    I already provided you with one link, here’s another which points to longterm damage even in those with mild symptoms.

    https://nymag.com/intelligencer/amp/2020/04/more-bad-news-on-the-long-term-effects-of-the-coronavirus.html

    There are people on here who want to have a discussion like kaiser and people like you who just want to attack anyone who disagrees with them.
    From your link:

    "
    While those revelations are concerning, the size of the study is far too small to draw a big-picture, epidemiological understanding of COVID-19’s long-term effects on the body. Another caveat noted by the L.A. Times: The assessment of organ failure in coronavirus survivors is complicated by the fact that “patients with disorders that affect the heart, liver, blood and lungs face a higher risk of becoming very sick with COVID-19 in the first place. That makes it difficult to distinguish COVID-19 after-effects from the problems that made patients vulnerable to begin with — especially so early in the game.”


  • #7653
    JoeExotic81
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 340 ✭✭JoeExotic81


    Professor Moriarty wrote: »
    Typically, only about 33% of people who are hospitalised with Covid-19 requires ICU treatment. Over 2,000 people have been hospitalised in Ireland. In that context, here is another study supporting The Lancet study wrt long term cardiac damage (The Lancet study concluded that hospitalised patients suffered long term ARDS and/or cardiac damage). This study focused on cardiac complications only. 20% of people hospitalised with Covid-19 suffered cardiac injury.

    14000 cases here, 300 ICU admissions, do the math.


  • #7654
    easypazz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,346 ✭✭✭easypazz


    KiKi III wrote: »
    Out of interest kaiser, what’s your take on why there aren’t doctors and epidemiologists coming out in support of your view?

    Tony Holohan said much the same last night.

    Get a grip.


  • #7655
    KiKi III
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭KiKi III


    retro:electro wrote: »
    But there are no experts on this. We have experts in their fields, that is wildly different to having experts on Covid 19. Even the people you claim are experts will tell you this is new ground and nobody really knows what they are dealing with. It’s a situation that is evolving every day.

    That’s just not true retro and I’m surprised you’d put forward that view.

    The full name of this coronavirus is SARS-Covid 19. It’s another iteration of a virus epidemiologists have been studying since the 2003 outbreak.

    The idea that because this scale of pandemic is new, your local plumber’s opinion is as valid as an epidemiologist’s is farcical.


  • #7656
    iamwhoiam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,260 ✭✭✭✭iamwhoiam


    Has it always been so or is it a new thing that some people wallow in the negative aspect of this crises .? Its like they enjoy seeing the horror and the worse case scenario ?
    Ah I think I actually know the answer though , they most likely have always enjoyed wallowing in negativity .


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  • #7657
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,394 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    JoeExotic81 wrote: »
    14000 cases here, 300 ICU admissions, do the math.

    Do your own maths. Actually, if I'm honest and no offence, I couldn't be bothered responding to you personally. You seem angry and your mind seems closed. I'm just using your posts as a foil to inform myself.


  • #7658
    JoeExotic81
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 340 ✭✭JoeExotic81


    KiKi III wrote: »
    That’s just not true retro and I’m surprised you’d put forward that view.

    The full name of this coronavirus is SARS-Covid 19. It’s another iteration of a virus epidemiologists have been studying since the 2003 outbreak.

    The idea that because this scale of pandemic is new, your local plumber’s opinion is as valid as an epidemiologist’s is farcical.

    This thread is about lifting restrictions. There are no experts on this because the whole world has never been put on lockdown before. Again you miss the point though.


  • #7659
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,570 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    jester77 wrote: »
    Shops under 800 sqm. are opening here in Hamburg on Monday, exam students returning the following Monday, more classes the week after that. Slowly returning to normal is the approach been taken.

    Listen , what would the idiot germans know? Varadkar and Harris etc would be far more competent. In general here, the lack of leadership and decision making is unbelievable. Has varadkar put together a committee to make recommendations like on abortion , so if it goes wrong, he can blame someone else?


  • #7660
    retro:electro
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,039 ✭✭✭✭retro:electro


    KiKi III wrote: »
    That’s just not true retro and I’m surprised you’d put forward that view.

    The full name of this coronavirus is SARS-Covid 19. It’s another iteration of a virus epidemiologists have been studying since the 2003 outbreak.

    The idea that because this scale of pandemic is new, your local plumber’s opinion is as valid as an epidemiologist’s is farcical.

    I’m not sure why you consistently have to adopt this patronising tone to people? Nobody is saying their local plumber’s opinion is as valid. Stop with the nonsense will you.

    If you turn on any news channel, or indeed were watching Prime Time on Thursday night you will see that many “experts” the world over are disagreeing with each other and contradicting each other day in and day out on what is the best way forward with this. You might happen to take a few “expert’s” word as gospel but that doesn’t make it so. And I’m well aware of the full name of the virus thanks Kiki.

    Why are we even gone down this route? Because you were caught exaggerating and have rooted through someone’s post history in order to deflect from being caught out on that.


  • #7661
    easypazz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,346 ✭✭✭easypazz


    iamwhoiam wrote: »
    Has it always been so or is it a new thing that some people wallow in the negative aspect of this crises .? Its like they enjoy seeing the horror and the worse case scenario ?
    Ah I think I actually know the answer though , they most likely have always enjoyed wallowing in negativity .

    Its just a few on here it seems, no pubs until 2021, lock everybody in forever because it might offend the elderly, no jogging on the footpath.


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  • #7662
    lord quackinton
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 352 ✭✭lord quackinton


    https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/0418/1132271-deaths-covid-holohan/

    Why was this kept from us? Why are we being lied to? What other lies have we been told?

    Lockdown is now over fully for me
    I hope people have the sense to use their own brains and end this nonsense now

    We are now open


  • #7663
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,394 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    lord quackinton wrote: »
    https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/0418/1132271-deaths-covid-holohan/

    Why was this kept from us? Why are we being lied to? What other lies have we been told?

    Lockdown is now over fully for me
    I hope people have the sense to use their own brains and end this nonsense now

    We are now open

    If it walks like a duck and it talks like a duck...


  • #7664
    polesheep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,950 ✭✭✭polesheep


    KiKi III wrote: »
    Here’s a respiratory doctor talking about it in the Irish Times.

    https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/health-family/coronavirus-what-happens-to-people-s-lungs-if-they-get-covid-19-1.4211714%3fmode=amp

    6% of people will get a severe enough version of the illness to fall into this category.

    So, if you’re trying to achieve here immunity, that’s 6% of 3,000,000 people.

    How do you imagine our health system, currently under pressure with a few hundred people in ICU is going to cope with that?
    This link does not support the statement you made, "There is also evidence that if you get it and recover you can be left with long-term lung and heart damage."


  • #7665
    _Kaiser_
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,293 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    KiKi III wrote: »
    Out of interest kaiser, what’s your take on why there aren’t doctors and epidemiologists coming out in support of your view?

    Doctors are looking at the situation through a very narrow lens. Protecting lives and the "do no harm" approach. As such they are always going to be conservative and cautious in their approach - particularly with a new situation like this virus - and that is perfectly reasonable to protect their patients, including trying to protect their limited resources to allow them capacity to treat those who most need it.

    But, there's a bigger picture here and the numbers show that the vast majority of people will not suffer any lasting effects, will not be debilitated by this to the point of needing hospitalisation, and may not even realise they had it at all in some cases.

    As I keep saying, we now need to move from an approach of lockdown to risk management and factoring in the bigger picture and impact this is having not just on the economy but socially and mentally for many people.

    We can do both - protect and treat the medically vulnerable, while simultaneously also protecting and treating the needs of everyone else


  • #7666
    CtevenSrowder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,909 ✭✭✭CtevenSrowder


    lord quackinton wrote: »
    https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/0418/1132271-deaths-covid-holohan/

    Why was this kept from us? Why are we being lied to? What other lies have we been told?

    Lockdown is now over fully for me
    I hope people have the sense to use their own brains and end this nonsense now

    We are now open

    What do you mean "kept from us"? They only know the peak has happened after it's happened.


  • #7667
    KiKi III
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭KiKi III


    Professor Moriarty wrote: »
    Do your own maths. Actually, if I'm honest and no offence, I couldn't be bothered responding to you personally. You seem angry and your mind seems closed. I'm just using your posts as a foil to inform myself.

    Exactly, if he did do his own maths he'd realise that if 14,000 cases produces enough patients to fill almost all our ICU beds, 3,000,000 cases would completely overwhelm and collapse our health system.

    But pointing out obvious facts like that is considered scaremongering around here. This is already happening in Japan where they were too slow to take decisive action and now their health system is under severe pressure: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-52336388


  • #7668
    easypazz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,346 ✭✭✭easypazz


    lord quackinton wrote: »
    https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/0418/1132271-deaths-covid-holohan/

    Why was this kept from us? Why are we being lied to? What other lies have we been told?

    Lockdown is now over fully for me
    I hope people have the sense to use their own brains and end this nonsense now

    We are now open

    They will struggle to justify a lockdown for the May weekend.

    Its primarily a nursing home event now.


  • #7669
    JoeExotic81
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 340 ✭✭JoeExotic81


    Professor Moriarty wrote: »
    Do your own maths. Actually, if I'm honest and no offence, I couldn't be bothered responding to you personally. You seem angry and your mind seems closed. I'm just using your posts as a foil to inform myself.

    tenor.gif


  • #7670
    LiquidZeb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,254 ✭✭✭LiquidZeb


    easypazz wrote: »
    Its just a few on here it seems, no pubs until 2021, lock everybody in forever because it might offend the elderly, no jogging on the footpath.

    Yeah the joggers and cyclists really seem to rile that crew up. They were giving out in a thread yesterday about joggers potentially infecting people with their sweat. I guess going for a run is the equivalent of committing the Bosnian genocide in their eyes.


  • #7671
    is_that_so
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    CtevenSrowder wrote: »
    What do you mean "kept from us"? They only know the peak has happened after it's happened.
    Yeah and their minds have been focused on other things. We'll probably see more things "revealed" as they find more time to explore them.


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  • #7672
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,394 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    KiKi III wrote: »
    Exactly, if he did do his own maths he'd realise that if 14,000 cases produces enough patients to fill almost all our ICU beds, 3,000,000 cases would completely overwhelm and collapse our health system.

    But pointing out obvious facts like that is considered scaremongering around here. This is already happening in Japan where they were too slow to take decisive action and now their health system is under severe pressure: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-52336388

    Very grim triage took place in parts of Spain and Italy as their hospitals became overwhelmed. Here's hoping we don't get to that. Looking like we won't thankfully.


  • #7673
    KiKi III
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭KiKi III


    _Kaiser_ wrote: »
    Doctors are looking at the situation through a very narrow lens. Protecting lives and the "do no harm" approach. As such they are always going to be conservative and cautious in their approach - particularly with a new situation like this virus - and that is perfectly reasonable to protect their patients, including trying to protect their limited resources to allow them capacity to treat those who most need it.

    But, there's a bigger picture here and the numbers show that the vast majority of people will not suffer any lasting effects, will not be debilitated by this to the point of needing hospitalisation, and may not even realise they had it at all in some cases.

    As I keep saying, we now need to move from an approach of lockdown to risk management and factoring in the bigger picture and impact this is having not just on the economy but socially and mentally for many people.

    We can do both - protect and treat the medically vulnerable, while simultaneously also protecting and treating the needs of everyone else

    Right, so assuming the data we have now is correct, and we've passed the peak and gotten the R0 to below one, are you in favour of easing restrictions on a phased basis from May 5 on?

    If so, we are on the same page.

    Honestly, I think a two-week extension to the initial lockdown would have been enough, but I believe the government foresaw a spike in infections if people were allowed go back to normal for the May bank holiday.

    It was likely considered easier to keep everyone on board for one week longer than expected than to lift the lockdown after four weeks and then implement it again after a spike.


  • #7674
    JoeExotic81
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 340 ✭✭JoeExotic81


    KiKi III wrote: »
    Exactly, if he did do his own maths he'd realise that if 14,000 cases produces enough patients to fill almost all our ICU beds, 3,000,000 cases would completely overwhelm and collapse our health system.

    But pointing out obvious facts like that is considered scaremongering around here. This is already happening in Japan where they were too slow to take decisive action and now their health system is under severe pressure: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-52336388

    "There is also evidence that if you get it and recover you can be left with long-term lung and heart damage."

    This is all I'm discussing. You seem to be having some sort of episode there where you're confusing my issue with your hyperbolic statements as somehow meaning I'm advocating herd immunity. Bizarre.


  • #7675
    KiKi III
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭KiKi III


    JoeExotic81 wrote: »
    "There is also evidence that if you get it and recover you can be left with long-term lung and heart damage."

    This is all I'm discussing. You seem to be having some sort of episode there where you're confusing my issue with your hyperbolic statements as somehow meaning I'm advocating herd immunity. Bizarre.

    Did you read the two links I have provided for you as evidence of that statement yet? Would you like to have a discussion about the evidence provided by doctors in those articles?


  • #7676
    polesheep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,950 ✭✭✭polesheep


    KiKi III wrote: »
    Exactly, if he did do his own maths he'd realise that if 14,000 cases produces enough patients to fill almost all our ICU beds, 3,000,000 cases would completely overwhelm and collapse our health system.

    But pointing out obvious facts like that is considered scaremongering around here. This is already happening in Japan where they were too slow to take decisive action and now their health system is under severe pressure: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-52336388

    You do this all the time; slip in absurd statements as though they were real. Then you race on from them with nonsensical deductions. How on earth could we be faced with a scenario of 3,000,000 people infected all at once?


  • #7677
    KiKi III
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭KiKi III


    Professor Moriarty wrote: »
    Very grim triage took place in parts of Spain and Italy as their hospitals became overwhelmed. Here's hoping we don't get to that. Looking like we won't thankfully.

    Yes, quick action to expand the number of ICU beds we have available combined with the lockdown have thankfully avoided that situation so far, and it looks like we are not going to find ourselves in the desperate situation Italy and Spain did.

    Although this only happened because we were quick to implement the lockdown, some will continue to believe it's evidence that the lockdown was never needed to begin with.


  • #7678
    KiKi III
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭KiKi III


    polesheep wrote: »
    You do this all the time; slip in absurd statements as though they were real. Then you race on from them with nonsensical deductions. How on earth could we be faced with a scenario of 3,000,000 people infected all at once?

    We wouldn't have to deal with them all at once, but even if they were spread over 5-10 years those numbers would overwhelm our health system.

    Can you outline how you think it would be workable?


  • #7679
    CtevenSrowder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,909 ✭✭✭CtevenSrowder


    KiKi III wrote: »
    Did you read the two links I have provided for you as evidence of that statement yet? Would you like to have a discussion about the evidence provided by doctors in those articles?

    His point is that you posted what you did in such a way that it gives the impression that a significant % of people will be left with damaged heart or lungs after recovering from Covid. There is no evidence this is the case. This is why he is saying you engaged in hyperbole.


  • #7680
    _Kaiser_
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,293 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    KiKi III wrote: »
    Right, so assuming the data we have now is correct, and we've passed the peak and gotten the R0 to below one, are you in favour of easing restrictions on a phased basis from May 5 on?

    If so, we are on the same page.

    Honestly, I think a two-week extension to the initial lockdown would have been enough, but I believe the government foresaw a spike in infections if people were allowed go back to normal for the May bank holiday.

    It was likely considered easier to keep everyone on board for one week longer than expected than to lift the lockdown after four weeks and then implement it again after a spike.

    We're in agreement I think.

    Lifting all restrictions overnight would be lunacy, but I think things like more retail opening with social distancing being in place, limiting mass gatherings (gigs and such still off) and in confined spaces (pubs staying closed) make sense.

    But travel restrictions domestically anyway need to be lifted and workplaces need to assess the measures they can take to get people back and minimise risks.
    Those who are at greater risk will need to take responsibility and continue to protect themselves.

    The Government certainly cannot come out and extend again if that RTE report is accurate


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  • #7681
    JoeExotic81
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 340 ✭✭JoeExotic81


    KiKi III wrote: »
    Did you read the two links I have provided for you as evidence of that statement yet? Would you like to have a discussion about the evidence provided by doctors in those articles?

    Other posters have already directly quoted your linked articles as contracting your point.

    "There is also evidence that if you get it and recover you can be left with long-term lung and heart damage."

    You see no problem with your statement? You don't see how it could come across sensationalist?

    I feel sorry for you Kiki. Must be tough living with such a fear laden anxiety.


This discussion has been closed.
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