The Chinese Big Lie

2u2me · 15-04-2020 03:09PM

12trackmind wrote: »

exactly. The alternative is free-floating hatred and prejudice.. descending into generalizations about 'Chinese' or 'Americans.'

Feck that. We have drill down through our prejudices.. get precise about what we can't abide.

In the case of the U.S. for example, it's mindless nonsense to hate 'the U.S.' or 'Americans.' Drill down and you might be left with hating the militarists and the MIC.

But then you drill down and find that many U.S. soldiers are just ordinary, decent people who have had the misfortune to be born into a society in which the only chance they have of escaping poverty and getting an education is to join the military. It's complicated.

Evenbtually you drill down far enough and find that we are all deeply imperfect and that hatred and generalizations aren't much use at all, really.

All of which has no place on a message board, I know!

It has been proven there are many fine and brave Chinese people willing to risk their lives to get this message out to the world. They risk imprisonment for themseles and their family. I have faith in humanity in this way, I know an all controlling evil, brutal CCP can not cover up everything. Its impossible in the way its structured. We have all seen the footage of Tianmen Square(Outside of China). We all know where this virus came from there. Anyone who cares to pay attention knows of their atrocious human right's abuses.

They got the news out to the world. Tawain listened, South Korea listened, we and the western governments did not. That is on us.

Our governments are trying to deflect from how ill-prepared they were.
If this virus didn't come out of China it would come out of somewhere else; the next one probably will. There have been warnings coming from science for decades. We need to be ready for the next one, not ready to blame the country of origin.

2u2me · 15-04-2020 03:19PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Similar and illegal trade in wildlife goes on all over East Asia. Thailand for example. You want a Lesser Spotted Horned Watchamacallit from Balubaland as dinner, or a pet, or turned into powder as a way to keep your little pecker up, Bangkok has a few places for you. There's huge money, corruption and organised crime involved. It's certainly not just in China. If anything the Chinese authorities have more of a chance of stamping it out. The same kinda markets also exist in places in Africa and South America. Never mind that Western farming practices that hold huge numbers of poultry and pigs in tiny spaces.

If the virus has an equal likely hood of emerging just about anywhere; why blame China? If its because they could have controlled it and kept it within their borders, I'm not sure even the best run countries in the world could do that.

I'm sure if you believe China could contain it, it would lead one to blame them.
But wiith the spread rate of this virus, just how infectious it is, how much faster could other countries have identified and quarantined it?

Just look how we acted Wibbs! We were laughing at them going into lockdown. I certainly was.

cryptocurrency · 15-04-2020 03:25PM

2u2me wrote: »

If the virus has an equal likely hood of emerging just about anywhere; why blame China? If its because they could have controlled it and kept it within their borders, I'm not sure even the best run countries in the world could do that.

I'm sure if you believe China could contain it, it would lead one to blame them.
But wiith the spread rate of this virus, just how infectious it is, how much faster could other countries have identified and quarantined it?

Just look how we acted Wibbs! We were laughing at them going into lockdown. I certainly was.

They couldn't, most nations would be clueless how to handle it. I think the US would easy fit in that category. AIDs in the 80's gives an insight just how slow the US can be in even working out what is going on....it took them years.

cryptocurrency · 15-04-2020 03:35PM

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/confronting-coronavirus

Interesting view from inside China. Nothing new said but the general consensus is that China is on top of it. Mentions the inability to surpress info in this day and age and hospitals are fine, people out and about, no stories of hiding deaths..etc.

15-04-2020 04:12PM

archer22 wrote: »

Well you certainly paint a pretty hopeless picture of China.

Hopeless? I don't see it that way. It's just hopeless that it changes to match what Westerners view as being acceptable or normal.

I know many westerners or posters here, just don't get that Chinese culture is vastly different than western culture, although there are some strong similarities with 1950s Ireland.

China is changing. I don't see the need that many here have, that the CCP needs to be abolished or destroyed. Why? Because it matches the Chinese narrative. They want absolute leaders. They don't like making decisions for themselves (generalisation but reasonably accurate).

But Chinese people are never going to change to be similar to the west. Korea was easily influenced. Japan just really good at pretending to embrace western values, but mostly retained their traditional beliefs until some unique problems cropped up. China? haha.

Regarding wet markets (they have that name because of the melt from the preservative ice) they are all over east/ south east Asia and the ones I have been in just sold vegetables, fish, eggs etc and yes a lot of their customers are the poor.

They're called wet markets because of the blood. It's simple enough. You might want to use a different reason, but every introduction I've had to them by locals, they've used that as the frame of reference. And that's in both Asia, and Africa.

Its not the wet markets themselves that are the problem,it's the ones in China where some vendors are selling wildlife and the market for most of their wares are not for the poor...I mean they are not paying poachers in Africa to catch Pangolins and smugglers to ship them to China so their meat can be sold at Aldi type prices at the markets.

Nope. Don't agree. All wet markets are breeding grounds fro disease, and are a danger. I don't object to the closure of wet markets. They should be closed. I object to the ignorant stupidity in simply demanding their closure, and expecting it to magically happen.

Exotic meats were sold in China long before large sections of it's economy become successful... and you should do your research better... such diseases can cross jump into pigs and other traditional farm animals.

I have a friend in customs at Manila airport in the Philippines who told me one of the things they watch for is smugglers destined for Hong Kong with their suitcases full of Philippine reptiles wrapped in socks and packed in their suitcases...those creatures are destined for the mainland Chinese markets and they are not going to all that effort, risk and cost to provide cheap food for the
poor in China thats for sure!

I never said that they were... and there are other ways for such meats to be imported. You simply picked the most expensive and easiest ways to detect them. The use of ports and smuggling on large shipping container is the more common method.

15-04-2020 04:18PM

alwald wrote: »

People can argue that there are conspiracy theories out there blaming the Chinese government, that there is an agenda against the CCP by some western countries, and I can go on and on, but what people can't and shouldn't argue with is the fishy handling of C-19 by the CCP including silencing doctors/scientists. CCP has so much to answer for about their lack of transparency from the beginning and should therefore answer to this in an international court with a full investigation.

Okay. Explain to me... when has the CCP ever been transparent about issues within China?

Why the hell are people expecting China to behave differently than it always has before? I seriously don't get the logic.

dwayneshintzy · 15-04-2020 04:22PM

Never heard that "wet markets' are called wet markets because of the blood. Always told that they sold "wet" goods (perishable) as opposed to other "dry" markets.

There's absolutely no need to shut down the wet markets in Hong Kong, anyway. Why would there be?

15-04-2020 04:28PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Similar and illegal trade in wildlife goes on all over East Asia. Thailand for example. You want a Lesser Spotted Horned Watchamacallit from Balubaland as dinner, or a pet, or turned into powder as a way to keep your little pecker up, Bangkok has a few places for you. There's huge money, corruption and organised crime involved. It's certainly not just in China. If anything the Chinese authorities have more of a chance of stamping it out. The same kinda markets also exist in places in Africa and South America. Never mind that Western farming practices that hold huge numbers of poultry and pigs in tiny spaces.

Did you watch that tiger king series on netflix? Cringe worthy tv, but it does show an example of what goes on in the US, and the people who live there. There are more Tigers in captivity in the US than the numbers remaining in the wild. That shocked me when I heard it. And how many of those would be own by private citizens, and disposed by them for various reasons. You can be sure, that these types of people would be interested in other animals too...

People like to pretend that the west is completely above board.. but we're not. Sure, Europe is pretty tame in comparison to the US, but I'm imagine there's examples of such behavior if someone was to dig hard enough. Along with the eating/distribution of exotic meats.

2u2me · 15-04-2020 04:46PM

cryptocurrency wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/confronting-coronavirus

Interesting view from inside China. Nothing new said but the general consensus is that China is on top of it. Mentions the inability to surpress info in this day and age and hospitals are fine, people out and about, no stories of hiding deaths..etc.

I never knew the Irish Times were a shill for the CCP. How dare they lie like this :P

Yurt2 · 15-04-2020 05:22PM

I've actually met the guy who's speaking on the podcast on a few occasions. He ran a bookshop / bar in Beijing for many years.

I'll put it this way: pinch of salt.

archer22 · 15-04-2020 05:23PM

dwayneshintzy wrote: »

Never heard that "wet markets' are called wet markets because of the blood. Always told that they sold "wet" goods (perishable) as opposed to other "dry" markets.

There's absolutely no need to shut down the wet markets in Hong Kong, anyway. Why would there be?

Yep not sure where Klaz has been, but the markets in the Philippines we have done shopping in were called "wet markets" and there was never any blood or slaughtering of anything there.
The place simply looks wet from melting ice and washing of produce etc.

Perhaps Klaz could elaborate more, are all the wet markets in China basically slaughterhouses then and are there none that just sell veg, fruit, fish and other normal everyday foods?

FVP3 · 15-04-2020 05:34PM

bob mcbob wrote: »

Ok so your first statements were BS.

You are going to have to elaborate. I made my argument with links. For instance China is the world's second largest importer. You claimed it wasn't an importer at all. I also said while that Germany wasn't in recession last year, it was near to it in the last few years. The original claim about the recession wasn't mine.

Germany is in trade surplus with China:
https://tradingeconomics.com/germany/exports-to-china

China is the world's second largest importer:
https://www.valuewalk.com/2019/10/top-10-largest-importers-in-the-world/

It is just behind the US at $2.13 trillion to $2.61 trillion.

So any trade war is not going to be that simple.

Then on to nasty America

As opposed to nasty China. Of course the US is a nasty country, especially in how it treats nations who oppose it.

Then deflection - it is called African Swine Flu because it has originated in Africa and has been around for.a while. It is not where it came from but how you manage it when it gets to your country.

You have literally made my point about the Corona Virus and the US. And defeated your point about China.

Also using your logic, could we blame the CCP for a virus that emerged in say Wuhan?

My point was that we don't blame Africans for African Swine Flu, Mexico for the 2009 swine flu, etc. Even if badly handled. I also dispute that China did in fact badly handle this.

15-04-2020 06:06PM

archer22 wrote: »

Yep not sure where Klaz has been, but the markets in the Philippines we have done shopping in were called "wet markets" and there was never any blood or slaughtering of anything there.
The place simply looks wet from melting ice and washing of produce etc.

Perhaps Klaz could elaborate more, are all the wet markets in China basically slaughterhouses then and are there none that just sell veg, fruit, fish and other normal everyday foods?

Well, I've lived in China, but traveled to a variety of Asian countries, and spent time along the east coast of Africa. Didn't see wet markets when I lived in Korea or Japan. Thailand definitely had them outside of the major city areas, as did Vietnam and Cambodia.

Typically, with wet markets there will be "a degree" of organisation (not much though). Meats on one side, and then the veg in another. Although, nobody should consider these markets to be small in size. There will be many "booths" of butchers to choose from, or farmers to pick the animal before butchering. From my experience, the reference to the blood, is in regards to the storing of meat, "bits", and blood after the butchering.

Since butchering doesn't usually wait until the customer appears, often the meat is cut up and displayed in the open air for people to walk by and browse. The blood is stored in vats which are also typically open to the air, with flies, or other vermin nearby... it's not properly stored and cleaned.. since cleaning mostly consists of spraying water to simply remove the surface blood. Which isn't too bad when the weather is cold, but when you're reaching 40/50 degrees, it can be pretty damn disgusting. Then throw in that live animals are nearby, along with the excrement and other stuff that's left behind... after a market is finished for the day, there will be very little cleanup, before the next market. Sometimes they'll move location, but in many places, the markets are traditionally located in one location.

The vast majority of wet markets I know of, are essentially the slaughterhouse routine. At least I haven't heard of any that weren't except for some of the upscale markets which are seen near city centers.

I used to go quite often with my Chinese girlfriend to a market near our apartment on the outskirts of Xi'an. You could get some great slabs of meat which would never be found in supermarkets, and it was also a better place to find fruit produce that wasn't covered in chemicals (so that it would last longer on the shelves). My ex is from the countryside so her interest in cooking with every part of the animal would be different from mine.

At the end of the day though, the danger with wet markets is the storing of the blood which many use for soups, or as stock for cooking.. along with the bits like intestine, or the stomach lining which is very popular in many countries. The way that they're stored after butchering while waiting for someone to buy them, is pretty awful, and becomes a petri dish for bacteria/disease.

Note: In China... fruit and veg markets by farmers are usually done away from meat markets. Might a few streets away, but they wouldn't normally be in the same area. At least, I don't know of any, and I've lived in 6 Chinese cities. Xi'an, Tianjin, Harbin, Chongqing, Beijing, and Dongguan (near Shenzhen). (When I say lived, I mean being there longer than a year). I stopped going to supermarkets for meat/veg/fruit after my first year, because the quality (outside of the expat markets but they're expensive) is really low, and covered in chemicals.

cryptocurrency · 15-04-2020 06:25PM

Yurt! wrote: »

I've actually met the guy who's speaking on the podcast on a few occasions. He ran a bookshop / bar in Beijing for many years.

I'll put it this way: pinch of salt.

pinch away. Nothing he is saying there is wrong.

cryptocurrency · 15-04-2020 06:28PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Well, I've lived in China, but traveled to a variety of Asian countries, and spent time along the east coast of Africa. Didn't see wet markets when I lived in Korea or Japan. Thailand definitely had them outside of the major city areas, as did Vietnam and Cambodia.

Typically, with wet markets there will be "a degree" of organisation (not much though). Meats on one side, and then the veg in another. Although, nobody should consider these markets to be small in size. There will be many "booths" of butchers to choose from, or farmers to pick the animal before butchering. From my experience, the reference to the blood, is in regards to the storing of meat, "bits", and blood after the butchering.

Since butchering doesn't usually wait until the customer appears, often the meat is cut up and displayed in the open air for people to walk by and browse. The blood is stored in vats which are also typically open to the air, with flies, or other vermin nearby... it's not properly stored and cleaned.. since cleaning mostly consists of spraying water to simply remove the surface blood. Which isn't too bad when the weather is cold, but when you're reaching 40/50 degrees, it can be pretty damn disgusting. Then throw in that live animals are nearby, along with the excrement and other stuff that's left behind... after a market is finished for the day, there will be very little cleanup, before the next market. Sometimes they'll move location, but in many places, the markets are traditionally located in one location.

The vast majority of wet markets I know of, are essentially the slaughterhouse routine. At least I haven't heard of any that weren't except for some of the upscale markets which are seen near city centers.

I used to go quite often with my Chinese girlfriend to a market near our apartment on the outskirts of Xi'an. You could get some great slabs of meat which would never be found in supermarkets, and it was also a better place to find fruit produce that wasn't covered in chemicals (so that it would last longer on the shelves). My ex is from the countryside so her interest in cooking with every part of the animal would be different from mine.

At the end of the day though, the danger with wet markets is the storing of the blood which many use for soups, or as stock for cooking.. along with the bits like intestine, or the stomach lining which is very popular in many countries. The way that they're stored after butchering while waiting for someone to buy them, is pretty awful, and becomes a petri dish for bacteria/disease.

Note: In China... fruit and veg markets by farmers are usually done away from meat markets. Might a few streets away, but they wouldn't normally be in the same area. At least, I don't know of any, and I've lived in 6 Chinese cities. Xi'an, Tianjin, Harbin, Chongqing, Beijing, and Dongguan (near Shenzhen). (When I say lived, I mean being there longer than a year). I stopped going to supermarkets for meat/veg/fruit after my first year, because the quality (outside of the expat markets but they're expensive) is really low, and covered in chemicals.

I remember buying a loaf of bread in China and it was in perfect looking condition after a month. Madness.

Experience_day · 15-04-2020 06:29PM

cryptocurrency wrote: »

pinch away. Nothing he is saying there is wrong.

I've seen you all over the forum on the same topics. Out of curiosity where are you from (as in born, ancestry etc)

cryptocurrency · 15-04-2020 06:58PM

Nairobi

dwayneshintzy · 15-04-2020 11:18PM

klaz, it was said that the problems with wet markets are how they're set up in China, not the concept of a wet market itself. But you said "all wet markets are breeding grounds for disease". Animals aren't slaughtered at HK wet markets, there's no storing of blood. What's wrong with the wet markets in Hong Kong?

I only say Hong Kong as I've got plenty of experience there. But same for Singapore, Taipei, Kuala Lumpur, etc

16-04-2020 12:29AM

dwayneshintzy wrote: »

klaz, it was said that the problems with wet markets are how they're set up in China, not the concept of a wet market itself. But you said "all wet markets are breeding grounds for disease". Animals aren't slaughtered at HK wet markets, there's no storing of blood. What's wrong with the wet markets in Hong Kong?

I only say Hong Kong as I've got plenty of experience there. But same for Singapore, Taipei, Kuala Lumpur, etc

Well, it's going to be situational... depending on how the meat and other "ingredients" are stored, along with the manner of how the clean up after.

And each of the places you named is a (or the) major city of the country. Standards are generally going to be higher in them, although I suspect the suburbs are less so. (except for Malaysia, since Muslim countries tend to be more careful with their butchering)

As for what's wrong with the wet markets in HK... it's part of China now. It's
probably going to adopt the same practices as more mainlander country people flock there. But traditionally? Probably nothing. I've seen very clean and well run wet markets, but they're rare and typically catering to the affluent.. rather than the average joe.

fryup · 16-04-2020 12:41AM

An Aussie telling it straight...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w654l5NtO20

Yurt2 · 16-04-2020 01:35AM

cryptocurrency wrote: »

pinch away. Nothing he is saying there is wrong.

I can point out a few inaccuracies off the bat. He's not the person I'd be going to for informed opinion on China.

Kivaro · 16-04-2020 08:44AM

Based on television reports this morning, there is now a lot of consensus that the expected source of this virus was from the Wuhan lab, and it was accidentally released into the public. It was not part of biological weapons research, according to these reports.

Also reported on CNN this morning, was the news that it appears that Chinese authorities sat on a critical report for at least 7 days, while telling its citizens and the world that the virus did not have the capability for human-to-human transmissions. A leaked teleconference memo talked about the "sobering" reality of what was actually happening with clusters in Wuhan, which confirmed human-to-human transmission, but they did not share this information for 7 days.

I'm sure that the usual posters defending China on the various Covid threads will be on here shortly. Expect to see the word "Trump" to pop up in order to deflect and derail the topic. Meanwhile, China is making hay while the sun shines ....... as they continue their advances in the South China sea sinking a Vietnamese boat and sending an aircraft carrier and its six-ship flotilla north of Taiwan ..... "coincidentally" at a time when four US aircraft carriers in the Pacific are grappling with Covid-19 infections.

silverharp · 16-04-2020 08:58AM

I think the West will just have to get used to the fact that the chinese system is incompatible with western systems and will need to decouple, nothing personal

16-04-2020 09:04AM

Kivaro wrote: »

Based on television reports this morning, there is now a lot of consensus that the expected source of this virus was from the Wuhan lab, and it was accidentally released into the public. It was not part of biological weapons research, according to these reports.

Which is far more reasonable a suggestion... although still founded on pure speculation, and coincidence.

Also reported on CNN this morning, was the news that it appears that Chinese authorities sat on a critical report for at least 7 days, while telling its citizens and the world that the virus did not have the capability for human-to-human transmissions. A leaked teleconference memo talked about the "sobering" reality of what was actually happening with clusters in Wuhan, which confirmed human-to-human transmission, but they did not share this information for 7 days.

I'm sure that the usual posters defending China on the various Covid threads will be on here shortly. Expect to see the word "Trump" to pop up in order to deflect and derail the topic. Meanwhile, China is making hay while the sun shines ....... as they continue their advances in the South China sea sinking a Vietnamese boat and sending an aircraft carrier and its six-ship flotilla north of Taiwan ..... "coincidentally" at a time when four US aircraft carriers in the Pacific are grappling with Covid-19 infections.

Well, you talk about deflection but ignore that Trump/the US reactions were pretty similar to China. They had knowledge of the virus earlier than others, and did essentially nothing, except to dismiss the threat. We are talking about the foremost intelligence gathering nation in the world, looking at their main threat. The idea that they completely missed all references to covid is a cop out.

Did China hide the seriousness of the virus? Definitely. Are they alone in doing so? not in the slightest. Could they have responded in a better manner? Hindsight is awfully convenient, but probably they could have.

As for the Naval operations, they're taking advantage of the situation. Nothing terribly wrong there since the US has brought warships within reach of the Chinese mainland on many occasions.

I get, and appreciate your points. Fair enough. Although I would point out that there are double standards being applied here... also the convenience of hindsight dismissing the difficulties in identifying the virus, and deciding on a response. China is a very different nation to western nations, and the effectiveness of their government/health system is far less. So.. I'm not terribly interested in accepting opinions which are petty one-sided.

Wibbs · 16-04-2020 09:16AM

+1000 K, and "television reports" are to be taken with large pinches of salt. Depending on the demographic their aimed at and sell to this will determine their slant, particularly in the US, but not exclusively there(EG Sky news in Australia is overtly anti China). And governments will use that. While Chinese propaganda is obvious, even a little hamfisted to most westerners, largely because the Chinese are used to dealing with their own spoonfed population, western propaganda filtered through "friendly" news sources is less obvious to many.

I've been more concerned in some ways at the war of words between various actors on the world stage that's been brewing since early on and now it's accelerating. Trump, big shock, is amping it up, the Chinese ditto. This is a time for cool heads, because if we're not careful some idiot is going to start shooting.

Yurt2 · 16-04-2020 09:17AM

silverharp wrote: »

I think the West will just have to get used to the fact that the chinese system is incompatible with western systems and will need to decouple, nothing personal

I think some economic social distancing (to use a neologism) is the inevitable outcome of all this.

The days of thinking China will somehow magically politically converge with the West because of Nikes and ipads are long-gone. That was the big bet that Kissinger, Nixon and George Bush Sr. made and it was a losing one.

I'm comfortable with that - I don't think the CCP should be rewarded any further and deserve any of the West's patience any longer.
Eventually the scales will fall from the eyes of the Global South (if they haven't done so already). China has already proven to be a rapacious actor in Africa, and with what's going on now in Guangzhou (and all over the country it has to be said), Africans now know exactly the esteem they are held in by Chinese authorities.

12trackmind · 16-04-2020 09:30AM

Wibbs wrote: »

I've been more concerned in some ways at the war of words between various actors on the world stage that's been brewing since early on and now it's accelerating. Trump, big shock, is amping it up, the Chinese ditto. This is a time for cool heads, because if we're not careful some idiot is going to start shooting.

Agreed. I'm a 'prepare for the worst and hope for the best' type but easy to see things sprialing out control, especially with someone like Trump as CiC.

It's one of the reasons I would support cases being taken against specific individuals in the CCP based on international law. The Chinese people have suffered enough under the CCP.. any form of collective punishment (up to and including war) would merely punish them further.

16-04-2020 09:49AM

Yurt! wrote: »

I think some economic social distancing (to use a neologism) is the inevitable outcome of all this.

The days of thinking China will somehow magically politically converge with the West because of Nikes and ipads are long-gone. That was the big bet that Kissinger, Nixon and George Bush Sr. made and it was a losing one.

I wouldn't put Kissinger in with Nxon or Bush. The level of intelligence and worldview would have been completely different. Kissinger has spoken many times about China, and I've never heard any expectation from him that they would merge or become westernized. He knew that they wouldn't. Instead, the focus was to neuter the threat. Diminish the risk of actual war. A cold war with smiley faces is better than a hot war.

I'm comfortable with that - I don't think the CCP should be rewarded any further and deserve any of the West's patience any longer.

As for western patience, I'm trying to figure out what/when that has ever been? The west won't involve itself in internal Chinese affairs because they can't enforce anything... besides it opens up Western countries to similar levels of criticism, and is awfully hypocritical considering the continued existence of Guantanamo bay, and what is allowed to go on there.

Western patience on a global scale is down to needing China's large market. Money talks, and many western nations are heavily influenced by the corporations who want to sell their products in the Chinese market...

Eventually the scales will fall from the eyes of the Global South (if they haven't done so already). China has already proven to be a rapacious actor in Africa, and with what's going on now in Guangzhou (and all over the country it has to be said),

Africa? Nobody ever believed that China was a saint.. they merely followed the same path of Western nations. You're conveniently ignoring that they're mimicking the behavior of the US, France, etc in Africa.

As for GZ... there's a lot of ignorance on both sides going on here. Along with very selective logic, ignoring inconvenient truths about the behavior of many foreigners in China. And it's most definitely not all over the country...

Africans now know exactly the esteem they are held in by Chinese authorities.

Yet, GZ has the largest concentration of Africans in China, and the GZ has traditionally been a very racist district. Africans continue to go there for some reason.. Always seemed strange to me that they would go to the area with the least tolerance for them... Especially when they flout Chinese rules about covid, and cause other problems, therefore increasing the anger towards their community. Whereas racism in other cities/districts is decidedly low key. It's still there but not anywhere close to what it's normally like in GZ.

16-04-2020 09:55AM

12trackmind wrote: »

It's one of the reasons I would support cases being taken against specific individuals in the CCP based on international law. .

Such as? I mean the application of international law.. and how you would enforce it without sparking a nuclear war? You are talking about the absolute leaders of a nation.

Don't you find it a bit hypocritical to go after China, but Bush Jnr (or his administration) was never punished for the invasion of Iraq, or the lies told to the international community, which has resulted in so much death?

Kivaro · 16-04-2020 09:56AM

Wibbs wrote: »

+1000 K, and "television reports" are to be taken with large pinches of salt. Depending on the demographic their aimed at and sell to this will determine their slant, particularly in the US, but not exclusively there(EG Sky news in Australia is overtly anti China).

Which is why I specifically mentioned CNN, which is 1000% anti-Trump and they would do and say anything that could damage him. I was surprised to see them laying blame on Chinese authorities. I verified these "television reports" by using other online sources before posting by the way, so you can reduce the large amount of salt that you sprinkled.

Some of Klaz's points were agreeable.
This crisis has been mishandled by both the East and the West, and I include our own Government's response also, who could have done a lot more to reduce the impact on our small island. RTE and the Irish Times were warning us in early March about the impending explosion of deaths in Direct Provision centres; yet not a word of warning from them about the effects on nursing homes and care facilities. We, as a society, have a lot to answer for on how our older population were left defenseless from this onslaught; especially since the warning signs were visible in Italy.

Regarding a big shoot-out. I posted about a month ago when this all started about an over-reaction from the superpowers that would make the Covid-19 pandemic look like a picnic compared to the consequences of a couple of world leaders losing their cool. All it takes is one silly move.

I hope lessons are learned when all of this have calmed down. There were many warnings that "all is not right" with the world before this pandemic started, so attitudes and actions need to adjust to reflect the possibility that the next one could really wipe us out.
If there was ever a time to take a holistic approach in how we live our lives, it's now. We need to re-examine our approach to the environment, the supply chain, inequality, wealth distribution, and most importantly ..... our quality of life. We should see the pandemic as an opportunity for positive change.
(Last paragraph is wishful thinking, but I'm running out of my daily quota posting limit and it had to go somewhere

)

The Chinese Big Lie

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