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CoVid19 Part XI - 2,615 in ROI (46 deaths) 410 in NI (21 deaths)(29/03)*OP upd 28/03*

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Comments

  • #7232
    New Home
    Moderators, Arts Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 80,633 Mod ✭✭✭✭New Home


    Professor Moriarty wrote: »
    I know when triage is used. My point is that triage is not genocide. What's happening in hospitals is not genocide.

    What would you call what's happening to elderly and frail people, then? Natural selection?


  • #7233
    Doc07
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,246 ✭✭✭Doc07


    New Home wrote: »
    It is genocide. This is not a matter of deciding what's better for the individual, this is being done due to lack of resources and due to the health services being overwhelmed. I know perfectly well that choices have been made before now, but only during war times, or times of epidemics (and not in Western Europe in recent times) have resources being removed from one patient who might (might, not will) to be given to another who might (might, not will) have a better chance of survival. I'm not talking about palliative care here. You wouldn't see all those doctors and nurses in tears over this, if this had been routine (and I'm not saying they're not sad when somebody dies in normal circumstances).

    It’s not genocide


  • #7234
    voluntary
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 867 ✭✭✭voluntary


    Was the 8:45 HSE announcement already?


  • #7235
    johnfás
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,344 ✭✭✭johnfás


    cameramonkey wrote: »
    We dont really know if it skews ICU numbers because we don't know if the nursing home patients made it that far.


    I suppose all the numbers are skewed .



    We dont know how many people have the virus because testing is not enough and then we had the fiasco with the system here. Do we even know how many test have been carried out and then processed?



    We don't know how many are in ICU because it seem they don't put the numbers that are actually there at the moment, they add up all that have needed ICU treatment at say that is the number. Some people must have left ICU through improvement or death. So their figure is meaningless in many ways.


    I think the HSE are being deliberately vague on some issues. They seem to answer questions about testing or equipment shortages with answers that are about what they will hope be the situation in a day or week.


    I would like to know, how many ICU beds have we? How many test are being carried out and processed a day? How many test have been carried out? It does not see that difficult answers those questions.

    I expect not many have yet left ICU. The average stay in ICU in Italy was nearly 2 weeks and working on the assumption you don’t need ICU for a couple of days after you contract it you are talking 2.5/3 weeks after contraction before leaving ICU.


  • #7236
    1641
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,342 ✭✭✭1641


    Spanish Eyes wrote: »
    Similar choices have been made in every country where the virus is rampant. No country has a ventilator for each and every citizen. Never will.

    My point was that such choices are not new at all, they have been going on forever.


    There was an Italian doctor on the other night who indicated that people (I am not sure if he meant just elderly people) who need ventilation usually require it ongoing for about 2 weeks and even then a high proportion die. So the frontline doctors are faced with the choice of who is more likely to survive if given scarce ventilation.


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  • #7237
    cameramonkey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,220 ✭✭✭cameramonkey


    New Home wrote: »
    What would you call what's happening to elderly and frail people, then? Natural selection?


    Old age and decline.


  • #7238
    BrianD3
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,009 ✭✭✭BrianD3


    Great how the state is so concerned about the elderly all of a sudden and wants them to "cocoon" at home. Nice comforting terminology - but have the practicalities of this cocooning been addressed?

    If the 10 deaths the other day and the 14 today were nursing home residents, questions have to be asked about standards of care in nursing homes but also, more fundamentally, about how many elderly are in nursing homes because of the shambles that is home care in this country.

    https://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/colette-browne/hses-over-reliance-on-nursing-homes-is-not-just-bad-news-for-elderly-its-bad-for-economics-too-34968684.html

    There should have been a "Fair Deal" for home care years ago.

    In the Budget last October, a million extra hours of home care were announced. A few weeks ago, pre Covid19, I was talking to a consultant geriatrician (who is at the coalface when it comes to discharging patients from hospital into the community) about this and they said that there is no sign of these extra hours and there are still thousands of people waiting on home care packages. Even if they do get them it will usually be a meagre number of hours and very possibly a poor service. The experience described in the below linked thread is apparently common.

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058045564

    The result of all of this is "bed blocking" in acute hospitals (which affects the Covid19 crisis) and also people clustered together in nursing homes when they may have been able to manage at home with some help.


  • #7239
    nimrod86
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 789 ✭✭✭nimrod86


    Nermal wrote: »
    Your industry can keep dust out of a room. You should be able to manage not to be a source of many further infections.

    That's true yeah, but for maintenance tasks people do be crawling over eachother getting parts into awkward spaces. Like a building site
    social distancing can't be done properly in the work. A mail the other day from a corporate level told us that if we had to break social distancing for over 30 minutes then we should talk to our manager, they're essentially telling us they know better than HSE guidelines. I'm most worried about getting from the car to the cleanroom through the halls and canteen.


  • #7240
    niallo27
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,145 ✭✭✭✭niallo27


    RayCon wrote: »
    Not where the staff have to de-gown , canteen, toilets etc.

    Our canteens have been redesigned and we have a marquee out the front. Every seat 2 meters from each other.


  • #7241
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,685 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    New Home wrote: »
    The difference is that now Over 65s aren't being treated. There's a damn big difference between someone who's 65 and someone who's 85 or 95.

    Where is this happening? I know it is in Italy

    Are you saying it's happening in Ireland and if yes, what's your proof?


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  • #7242
    paul71
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,430 ✭✭✭paul71


    New Home wrote: »
    What would you call what's happening to elderly and frail people, then? Natural selection?


    Professional medical decisions based on the merit of each case, in the face of limited resources.


  • #7243
    Un1corn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 126 ✭✭Un1corn


    Some footage from the border of Hubei and Jiangxi. Hubei people are pissed. It also looks like a perfect place for the virus to spread further.

    Riot in Hubei

    The context appears to be that the Hubei restrictions were lifted but the police from neighbouring Jiangxi province refused to allow people from Hubei access. There are videos of the police forces from Hubei fighting the police force from Jiangxi. Lots of reports coming from Wuhan of lots of new infections also.

    For a bit of a look at racism in China I recommend the following. Having worked and been to China many times myself I can assure you what he is saying is true as bizarre as it seems.

    Serpentza Racism Video


  • #7244
    Hobgoblin11
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,062 ✭✭✭Hobgoblin11


    BrianD3 wrote: »
    Great how the state is so concerned about the elderly all of a sudden and wants them to "cocoon" at home. Nice comforting terminology - but have the practicalities of this cocooning been addressed?

    If the 10 deaths the other day and the 14 today were nursing home residents, questions have to be asked about standards of care in nursing homes but also, more fundamentally, about how many elderly are in nursing homes because of the shambles that is home care in this country.

    https://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/colette-browne/hses-over-reliance-on-nursing-homes-is-not-just-bad-news-for-elderly-its-bad-for-economics-too-34968684.html

    There should have been a "Fair Deal" for home care years ago.

    In the Budget last October, a million extra hours of home care were announced. A few weeks ago, pre Covid19, I was talking to a consultant geriatrician (who is at the coalface when it comes to discharging patients from hospital into the community) about this and they said that there is no sign of these extra hours and there are still thousands of people waiting on home care packages. Even if they do get them it will usually be a meagre number of hours and very possibly a poor service. The experience described in the below linked thread is apparently common.

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058045564

    The result of all of this is "bed blocking" in acute hospitals (which affects the Covid19 crisis) and also people clustered together in nursing homes when they may have been able to manage at home with some help.

    cocoons don't need food, ever seen a larvae eat a hamburger?

    Dundalk, Co. Louth



  • #7245
    New Home
    Moderators, Arts Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 80,633 Mod ✭✭✭✭New Home


    cameramonkey wrote: »
    Old age and decline.

    So no point in treating anyone over 65 for anything, then, because they'd very likely die anyway? Let's make that over 60, should save us some more trouble.


  • #7246
    cameramonkey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,220 ✭✭✭cameramonkey


    johnfás wrote: »
    I expect not many have yet left ICU. The average stay in ICU in Italy was nearly 2 weeks and working on the assumption you don’t need ICU for a couple of days after you contract it you are talking 2.5/3 weeks after contraction before leaving ICU.


    Many reports say that if you need ICU treatment it is about from the 11 days on. So people getting the virus now who are vulnerable will need high level care in around the 11 days to two weeks time scale.


  • #7247
    coastwatch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 911 ✭✭✭coastwatch


    Is the percentage of community transmissions known or reported for the daily reported new cases?
    That will be the real measure of the effectiveness on the new restriction measures introduced last night.
    I thought I heard a figure of 52% mentioned on the 6 news, but not sure if that for total cases or for new confirmed cases.


  • #7248
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 168 ✭✭ [Deleted User]


    cameramonkey wrote: »
    We dont really know if it skews ICU numbers because we don't know if the nursing home patients made it that far.


    I suppose all the numbers are skewed .



    We dont know how many people have the virus because testing is not enough and then we had the fiasco with the system here. Do we even know how many test have been carried out and then processed?



    We don't know how many are in ICU because it seem they don't put the numbers that are actually there at the moment, they add up all that have needed ICU treatment at say that is the number. Some people must have left ICU through improvement or death. So their figure is meaningless in many ways.


    I think the HSE are being deliberately vague on some issues. They seem to answer questions about testing or equipment shortages with answers that are about what they will hope will be the situation in a day or week.


    I would like to know, how many ICU beds have we? How many test are being carried out and processed a day? How many test have been carried out? It does not seem that difficult answers those questions.
    Is the HSE even being straight with figures to the Government? If I was Leo or Simon I'd be considering redeploying guys from department of finance or CSO to independently audit these numbers.

    It would be a better use of resources than the HSE commissioning market research on a public health emergency from Red C Live.


  • #7249
    cameramonkey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,220 ✭✭✭cameramonkey


    New Home wrote: »
    So no point in treating anyone over 65 for anything, then, because they'd very likely die anyway? Let's make that over 60, should save us some more trouble.


    That is very inhumane.


  • #7250
    Purple Mountain
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,836 ✭✭✭✭Purple Mountain


    BrianD3 wrote: »
    Great how the state is so concerned about the elderly all of a sudden and wants them to "cocoon" at home. Nice comforting terminology - but have the practicalities of this cocooning been addressed?

    If the 10 deaths the other day and the 14 today were nursing home residents, questions have to be asked about standards of care in nursing homes but also, more fundamentally, about how many elderly are in nursing homes because of the shambles that is home care in this country.

    https://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/colette-browne/hses-over-reliance-on-nursing-homes-is-not-just-bad-news-for-elderly-its-bad-for-economics-too-34968684.html

    There should have been a "Fair Deal" for home care years ago.

    In the Budget last October, a million extra hours of home care were announced. A few weeks ago, pre Covid19, I was talking to a consultant geriatrician (who is at the coalface when it comes to discharging patients from hospital into the community) about this and they said that there is no sign of these extra hours and there are still thousands of people waiting on home care packages. Even if they do get them it will usually be a meagre number of hours and very possibly a poor service. The experience described in the below linked thread is apparently common.

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058045564

    The result of all of this is "bed blocking" in acute hospitals (which affects the Covid19 crisis) and also people clustered together in nursing homes when they may have been able to manage at home with some help.

    There's actually a lot of sense in your post.
    Look at the trolley overcrowding where many old people had been left to be exposed to infection and a lack of dignity. (I'm not blaming our health care workers BTW for the overcrowding).
    There was no rush to cocoon then.

    To thine own self be true



  • #7251
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,392 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    New Home wrote: »
    What would you call what's happening to elderly and frail people, then? Natural selection?

    In many ways, triage is natural selection. The virus is killing mostly sick or elderly people. Doctors must decide who has a better chance of survival when there are limited resources. Awful, but that's just how it is. It is not genocide.


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  • #7252
    is_that_so
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,132 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    voluntary wrote: »
    Was the 8:45 HSE announcement already?
    At weekends I think they just release them without a briefing, usually in time for the early evening news.


  • #7253
    helimachoptor
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 21,875 Mod ✭✭✭✭helimachoptor


    joeysoap wrote: »
    Neighbours near me had visitors all day, including children. Cluster waiting to happen. 3 cars currently. They won’t change.

    Neighbours two doors down, up until today the teenage girls boyfriend has been over with mates, today it's just him.

    Her mom is probably early 50s and morbidly obese so..


  • #7254
    briany
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,891 ✭✭✭✭briany


    yourdeadwright wrote: »
    Have we got today's numbers yet


    No, the next Lotto draw is on at 7.45.


  • #7255
    Ultimanemo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 890 ✭✭✭Ultimanemo


    nimrod86 wrote: »
    Anyone want to take a go at explaining to me how manufacturing of semiconductors is an essential service? Please? Anyone? I work in that industry and cannot understand it myself... Almost feel sick reading it, and the thought that my co-workers are still being expected to go in.
    If they are used in ventilators or other equipment used in hospitals then they are very essentials


  • #7256
    JP Liz V1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 92,394 ✭✭✭✭JP Liz V1


    yourdeadwright wrote: »
    Have we got today's numbers yet

    14 deaths (RIP)


  • #7257
    New Home
    Moderators, Arts Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 80,633 Mod ✭✭✭✭New Home


    cameramonkey wrote: »
    That is very inhumane.

    My point exactly.


    Anyway, this Spanish doctor called it a genocide, too, and he's faced with it every single day.



    (The video someone else posted the other day was removed from YouTube)


  • #7258
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,204 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    is_that_so wrote: »
    I think there was one mentioned where a medical professional had tested positive.

    Many health professionals are testing positive.
    My own first cousin works in a Community Care Hospital for the elderly and was sent home last week after a patient tested positive.

    Cousin found out today she tested positive. She said it was a matter of time really. They work 12 hour shifts on a ward caring for over 30 elderly and physically very frail people who need help with all their needs. This requires close contact.
    The staff are lucky if they have facemasks never mind full PPE.

    My cousin has been living in her camper van hooked up to the house leccy since all this began to try and avoid picking up/passing on the virus. Her husband leaves her meals at the door for her. He's a plumber and jury-rigged a loo/shower that she can access from outside.

    For the last few weeks, like her colleagues, her life has been working/sleeping and praying that when the virus got in - they knew it would - they could be there for those who would die without their families .

    And she will go back to work as soon as she is cleared because she loves her job and the people she cares for. She wants to go back to be there so confused, terrified people have a familiar face there calming them, and so some of those people don't die without seeing a face they know.


  • #7259
    Coyote
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,239 ✭✭✭Coyote


    Number updated to match today's report

    remember the 500 ICU beds a lot of them are in use already just not for Covid19

    I added in charts for all 3 rate of growth, i'm still working on them so forgive any mistakes

    No Change in number
    507385.PNG

    Slow Change
    507386.PNG

    Big Drop in numbers
    507387.PNG

    again with all of this i'm just trying to show people the 14 day delay in an change in how we deal with this
    if you wait till we are overloaded it's too late
    everyone has to make up there own mind but at least look at the maths

    3 weeks no change 44K
    3 weeks slow change 29K
    3 weeks big drop 9K

    1 month no change 151K
    1 month slow change 56K
    1 month big drop 11K

    intresting visualization of covid
    http://91-divoc.com/pages/covid-visualization/

    you need to decide what you do today to affect 3 weeks from now


  • #7260
    nimrod86
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 789 ✭✭✭nimrod86


    Ultimanemo wrote: »
    If they are used in ventilators or other equipment used in hospitals then they are very essentials

    Anything being made in this country is at best probably 3-6 months away from being used in a final product though, and that's assuming it leaves the factory today. Manufacturing itself takes weeks. I can't understand why a few weeks shutdown to protect staff isn't being done, and we can all pick up where we left off later, but suppose it's not my profit margins on the line...


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  • #7261
    rossie1977
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,527 ✭✭✭✭rossie1977


    I just walked into town to go to chemist which is about a mile and nothing seems to have changed. I would have expected Gardai to be patrolling but no.

    Quieter than usual for Saturday evening but don't see big change compared to last day I left house which was Wednesday


This discussion has been closed.
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