CoVid19 Part XI - 2,615 in ROI (46 deaths) 410 in NI (21 deaths)(29/03)OP upd 28/03

Spanish Eyes · 28-03-2020 06:53PM

New Home wrote: »

It is genocide. This is not a matter of deciding what's better for the individual, this is being done due to lack of resources and due to the health services being overwhelmed. I know perfectly well that choices have been made before now, but only during war times, or times of epidemics (and not in Western Europe in recent times) have resources being removed from one patient who might (might, not will) to be given to another who might (might, not will) have a better chance of survival. I'm not talking about palliative care here. You wouldn't see all those doctors and nurses in tears over this, if this had been routine (and I'm not saying they're not sad when somebody dies in normal circumstances).

Similar choices have been made in every country where the virus is rampant. No country has a ventilator for each and every citizen. Never will.

My point was that such choices are not new at all, they have been going on forever.

nimrod86 · 28-03-2020 06:55PM

Anyone want to take a go at explaining to me how manufacturing of semiconductors is an essential service? Please? Anyone? I work in that industry and cannot understand it myself... Almost feel sick reading it, and the thought that my co-workers are still being expected to go in.

Nermal · 28-03-2020 06:56PM

New Home wrote: »

It is genocide... I know perfectly well that choices have been made before now, but only during war times, or times of epidemics (and not in Western Europe in recent times) have resources being removed from one patient who might (might, not will) to be given to another who might (might, not will) have a better chance of survival.

Resources are always limited in healthcare, and have to be allocated where they will bring the most benefit. When NICE don’t approve an expensive drug in the UK, is that genocide?

skellig_rocks · 28-03-2020 06:56PM

FVP3 wrote: »

I am reading a history of China right now. Not really getting that. Insular yes, feeling superior to the rest of the world, yes but in the sense of not really caring to find out. Japan had that until the mid 19th C.

All cultures have some of that. It beats invading everywhere to impose capitalism christianity democracy.

Their society was hierarchical but not more so, and often more meritocratic than, the West. They've had an imperial exam system for 1000 years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_examination

Confucianism is a system of government which, while accepting the hierarchy of the elites over the poor ( like everywhere), also depends sacrifice from the rich. Western oligarchies could learn from that.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Few8kJ0zfnY

Racism in a Chinese laundry detergent advertisement

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-36394917

28-03-2020 06:57PM

TheValeyard wrote: »

1540 viewing these threads......wow, just wow......

So what? You get that on any Kermit snow thread on the weather forum.

ihdxwz4a3pem9j · 28-03-2020 06:57PM

Gretas Gonna Get Ya! wrote: »

What does this mean exactly?

So if someone has diabetes etc or some other chronic health condition, they're not offered ICU care when they get this thing?

Or are you referring specifically to elderly people in nursing homes?

This is not true. Each potential ICU candidate will be assessed by a senior ICU doctor. A lot of factors will be considered (e.g. the present illness, any unrelated severe medical conditions, a person's baseline level of functioning, the patient's wishes, etc). The doctor will assess if (s)he thinks that the patient will benefit from the intervention/if the disease-course can be changed. Every patient is considered as an individual. There are no current hard-and-fast rules.

Ireland does not have particularly stringent ICU admission criteria. Doctors use their many years of training (in Ireland, at least 8, to become a senior ICU doctor), to determine the best course of action for that patient. A doctor would not give a patient a medication that (s)he thought wasn't going to work. Similarly, ICU intervention is given to those who will likely receive benefit from it.

Hobgoblin11 · 28-03-2020 06:57PM

nimrod86 wrote: »

Anyone want to take a go at explaining to me how manufacturing of semiconductors is an essential service? Please? Anyone? I work in that industry and cannot understand it myself... Almost feel sick reading it, and the thought that my co-workers are still being expected to go in.

We need to be able to conduct semis, it’s essential

is_that_so · 28-03-2020 06:58PM

froog wrote: »

has it actually been confirmed the two daily spikes here were due to nursing home outbreaks? seems to be a lot of assumption going on here.

They explicitly mentioned nursing homes as an area of concern two days running.

jarvis · 28-03-2020 06:58PM

splinter65 wrote: »

I went to the chemist this afternoon. Our town Thurles was bright and dry but very cold. Normally on a Saturday at 4.30 it’s very busy and bustling. There were lots and lots of walkers out, both individuals and “couples”. I encountered a mother and a granny with 2 kids walking two dogs but they were the only ones not observing the rules. Apart from that it is a ghost town.

Why were the mother, grandmother, 2 kids and dogs considered to be rule breaking?

If they’re the one household then they’re allowed, no? I have two kids and my wife and I will probably go for a walk with them which is fine as far as I know.

Mervyn Skidmore · 28-03-2020 06:59PM

Marlow wrote: »

Updated list on essential services can be found here:

https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/dfeb8f-list-of-essential-service-providers-under-new-public-health-guidelin/

/M

I don't see the Courts on this list. It says "emergency call answering service to ensure administration of justice". Not sure how they can close the courts. There'd be people in custody, childcare orders, domestic violence orders etc.

spookwoman · 28-03-2020 07:00PM

https://twitter.com/newschambers/status/1243976016755863553?s=20

Gretas Gonna Get Ya! · 28-03-2020 07:01PM

Elle Tasty Gymnasium wrote: »

The complete restrictions, in my humble opinion, came at the right time. We have only a finite number of Gardaí. We rely on each other to self-govern. The Gardaí are by no means omnipresent. In order to get people to self-govern, there needs to be a sufficient buy-in from the citizens of Ireland. Otherwise, the whole intervention falls flat on its face. Fear incites people to buy-in. Even up until late afternoon on Boards, there were people berating the social restrictions. Could you imagine how defiant people would have been if they tried to completely restrict earlier than they did? And with regard to nursing homes, people would have cited inhumanity at the inability to visit loved-ones. People would have thought that the government was overreacting. They would have found ways to flout the rules. And inevitably as people started to fall sick with CoVID (inevitable, as people will always break rules), people would have dismissed the restrictions as ineffectual.

There's no doubt in my mind, they should have locked down earlier...

3 weeks ago, they weren't even sure if they should cancel paddy's day! This was a big indicator to me (and others) that they didn't really fully grasp the seriousness of what was happening elsewhere in Europe!

But there is no point in dwelling on the past. Hopefully they grasp how bad things are now, and we still might have a chance of not turning into the next Italy or Spain...

It all really depends how well we all play our part throughout the country. We've all got to play a blinder now, collectively as a nation. I am confident that we can do it - I see lots of people making a real genuine effort.

Nonoperational · 28-03-2020 07:01PM

There seems to be a lot of commentary here about ICU etc.

A nursing home patient over 80 would rarely get admitted to ICU before this. Some of this is the patients own wishes, some is avoiding futile treatment. Ventilating older frail patients rarely ends up with a good results.

igCorcaigh · 28-03-2020 07:01PM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

It's many things but it's not genocide. It's triage due to an unexpected pandemic, unprepared health services and sometimes poor political decision making.

We knew a pandemic was due. I wouldn't say it was unexpected.

New Home · 28-03-2020 07:01PM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

It's many things but it's not genocide. It's triage due to an unexpected pandemic, unprepared health services and sometimes poor political decision making.

Triage gets into play before you get a bed into ICU, not after.

Deleted User wrote: »

Great. So not only are the front line workers having to put up with a high chance of catching the virus, now they will look forward to a trial in the Hague when it's all over.

Give this person a strawman!

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Similar choices have been made in every country where the virus is rampant. No country has a ventilator for each and every citizen. Never will.

My point was that such choices are not new at all, they have been going on forever.

Choices on this scale are new. And so far we haven't needed a ventilator for each and every citizen, but for the most part whoever needed one got it.

Look, I'm not saying that they set out with the intention of letting every old or sick person die, but that's the end result of what's been happening for the most part. Old or frail people may not be a nation, but they are a class of people, and they're being culled because of the circumstances.

Professor Moriarty · 28-03-2020 07:02PM

igCorcaigh wrote: »

We knew a pandemic was due. I wouldn't say it was unexpected.

When did we know that? Didn't hear anyone talking about it until January.

28-03-2020 07:02PM

Hobgoblin11 wrote: »

We need to be able to conduct semis, it’s essential

A semi is about all I've been able to conduct lately. I blame the stress.

Roger_007 · 28-03-2020 07:02PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Great. So not only are the front line workers having to put up with a high chance of catching the virus, now they will look forward to a trial in the Hague when it's all over.

I now believe that one of the symptoms of NOT having the virus must be that you lose all sense of reason when discussing it.

niallo27 · 28-03-2020 07:03PM

nimrod86 wrote: »

Anyone want to take a go at explaining to me how manufacturing of semiconductors is an essential service? Please? Anyone? I work in that industry and cannot understand it myself... Almost feel sick reading it, and the thought that my co-workers are still being expected to go in.

Well they are used in medical equipment worldwide, this may be a factor in the next year or so.

yourdeadwright · 28-03-2020 07:03PM

Have we got today's numbers yet

893bet · 28-03-2020 07:03PM

froog wrote: »

has it actually been confirmed the two daily spikes here were due to nursing home outbreaks? seems to be a lot of assumption going on here.

This. Why would they all die the same day.

New Home · 28-03-2020 07:03PM

Nonoperational wrote: »

There seems to be a lot of commentary here about ICU etc.

A nursing home patient over 80 would rarely get admitted to ICU before this. Some of this is the patients own wishes, some is avoiding futile treatment. Ventilating older frail patients rarely ends up with a good results.

The difference is that now Over 65s aren't being treated. There's a damn big difference between someone who's 65 and someone who's 85 or 95.

Nermal · 28-03-2020 07:03PM

nimrod86 wrote: »

Anyone want to take a go at explaining to me how manufacturing of semiconductors is an essential service? Please? Anyone? I work in that industry and cannot understand it myself... Almost feel sick reading it, and the thought that my co-workers are still being expected to go in.

Your industry can keep dust out of a room. You should be able to manage not to be a source of many further infections.

cameramonkey · 28-03-2020 07:04PM

Widdensushi wrote: »

but the virus getting in to nursing homes skews both those figures

We dont really know if it skews ICU numbers because we don't know if the nursing home patients made it that far.

I suppose all the numbers are skewed .

We dont know how many people have the virus because testing is not enough and then we had the fiasco with the system here. Do we even know how many test have been carried out and then processed?

We don't know how many are in ICU because it seem they don't put the numbers that are actually there at the moment, they add up all that have needed ICU treatment at say that is the number. Some people must have left ICU through improvement or death. So their figure is meaningless in many ways.

I think the HSE are being deliberately vague on some issues. They seem to answer questions about testing or equipment shortages with answers that are about what they will hope will be the situation in a day or week.

I would like to know, how many ICU beds have we? How many test are being carried out and processed a day? How many test have been carried out? It does not seem that difficult answers those questions.

28-03-2020 07:04PM

Roger_007 wrote: »

I now believe that one of the symptoms of NOT having the virus must be that you lose all sense of reason when discussing it.

A little bit of irony, James. Let's not let the stiff upper lip tremble.

Professor Moriarty · 28-03-2020 07:04PM

New Home wrote: »

Triage gets into play before you get a bed into ICU, not after.

Give this person a strawman!

Choices on this scale are new. And so far we haven't needed a ventilator for each and every citizen, but for the most part whoever needed one got it.

Look, I'm not saying that they set out with the intention of letting every old or sick person die, but that's the end result of what's been happening for the most part. Old or frail people may not be a nation, but they are a class of people, and they're being culled because of the circumstances.

I know when triage is used. My point is that triage is not genocide. What's happening in hospitals is not genocide.

BanditLuke · 28-03-2020 07:04PM

Gretas Gonna Get Ya! wrote: »

There's no doubt in my mind, they should have locked down earlier...

3 weeks ago, they weren't even sure if they should cancel paddy's day! This was a big indicator to me (and others) that they didn't really fully grasp the seriousness of what was happening elsewhere in Europe!

But there is no point in dwelling on the past. Hopefully they grasp how bad things are now, and we still might have a chance of not turning into the next Italy or Spain...

It all really depends how well we all play our part throughout the country. We've all got to play a blinder now, collectively as a nation. I am confident that we can do it - I see lots of people making a real genuine effort.

Absolutely and its up to us as a people to call out the ones not playing their part, the Gardaí can't do it all themselves this is a nationwide effort.

con747 · 28-03-2020 07:05PM

nimrod86 wrote: »

Anyone want to take a go at explaining to me how manufacturing of semiconductors is an essential service? Please? Anyone? I work in that industry and cannot understand it myself... Almost feel sick reading it, and the thought that my co-workers are still being expected to go in.

Take a look here, https://www.hitachi-hightech.com/global/products/device/semiconductor/life.html

RayCon · 28-03-2020 07:06PM

Nermal wrote: »

Your industry can keep dust out of a room. You should be able to manage not to be a source of many further infections.

Not where the staff have to de-gown , canteen, toilets etc.

Inquitus · 28-03-2020 07:06PM

ifElseThen wrote: »

Morphine pain management and sedation most likely.

Morphine depresses the respiratory system, so not sure if it would be used in this case, but certainly sedation.

CoVid19 Part XI - 2,615 in ROI (46 deaths) 410 in NI (21 deaths)(29/03)*OP upd 28/03*

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CoVid19 Part XI - 2,615 in ROI (46 deaths) 410 in NI (21 deaths)(29/03)OP upd 28/03