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Looking for options if sales collapse due to Coronavirus.

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  • Options
    #62
    PickYourName
    Registered Users Posts: 412 ✭✭PickYourName


    jos28 wrote: »
    We are paying staff their normal pay this week but €203 of that will be refundable from Dept SW. I've just been onto the Revenue Employer helpline and I've been instructed to do the following:
    I was instructed to create a category of pay (I called it Covid-19 refund) which is tax,usc and prsi free as per normal dole payments. Put €203 of employee's normal gross into that category and their normal gross is then reduced by the €203. For example, someone with a gross pay of €1000 will now appear on their payslip as Gross pay €727 + Covid payment €203.

    I realise this means that employee's net pay will be higher than normal but your P30 payment will be reduced accordingly. If we decide to only pay the €203 per employee next week, they will get the full amount into their hand as they would if they were signing on directly at their Intreo Office.
    I hope that makes sense.

    That doesn't seem to match what has just been anounced, in particular the ability to pay more that the €203.

    See:

    https://www.revenue.ie/en/news/artic...nd-scheme.aspx

    See in particular the part that says: “No other payment amounts are made by the employer to the employee” This would seem to indicate it is not possible to pay more than the €203 to anyone on the scheme.

    Do you know where it might be possible to get this clarified? I would imagine the normal helplines etc. are completely swamped.


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    #63
    babybuilder
    Registered Users Posts: 1,076 ✭✭✭babybuilder


    PickYourName wrote: »
    That doesn't seem to match what has just been anounced, in particular the ability to pay more that the €203.

    See:

    https://www.revenue.ie/en/news/artic...nd-scheme.aspx

    See in particular the part that says: “No other payment amounts are made by the employer to the employee” This would seem to indicate it is not possible to pay more than the €203 to anyone on the scheme.

    Do you know where it might be possible to get this clarified? I would imagine the normal helplines etc. are completely swamped.

    I work as an accountant in practice. It is very hard to get clarification on this. I will try my sources in revenue tomorrow and get a definitive answer for us all.


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    #64
    babybuilder
    Registered Users Posts: 1,076 ✭✭✭babybuilder


    My initial understanding, from a lady in social welfare, was I could only pay the €203. Maybe revenue and Social welfare have not communicated properly.


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    #65
    jos28
    Registered Users Posts: 7,189 ✭✭✭jos28


    That completely contradicts what I was told on Monday. I explained in great detail that I was supplementing their pay with the €203 and they confirmed that was ok. I know they recorded the call. I've already submitted this payroll and will have to try and contact them tomorrow.


  • Options
    #66
    Darc19
    Registered Users Posts: 3,817 ✭✭✭Darc19


    babybuilder wrote: »
    My initial understanding, from a lady in social welfare, was I could only pay the €203. Maybe revenue and Social welfare have not communicated properly.

    That would be right as it's unemployment benefit and technically they should be available for work.

    Accountants will find work arounds. Where I work we chatted with staff and those with the biggest financial commitments are being prioritised for remaining.

    Those with less financial pressure are being temporarily laid off but being given additional holiday pay that effectively will be a €200 weekly payment.

    It will initially be on a loan basis, then applied off holiday pay gradually when things return to normal and they are back on payroll


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    #67
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 14,344 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Folks, this may seem silly, but I am self employed. However, i really only work for one company (they treat me decently, and in fairness to them they pay me well, but the hours are all over the shop, so taking on other work is tricky, hence almost everything i do is for them).

    I'm practically out of a job as they're no doubt going to go to sleep for a few months. I wonder, would it be possible to request that they hire me for the Covid period as an employee, pay me the 203 per week, and then sack me when they get back up and running again? (so i'd still have an income, maintain my ties with them, etc.)

    As it stands, it looks like the business will just hit the 'resume' button when the covid period ends. I don't think I'd be permanently out of work, just temporarily whilst this is ongoing.

    Is this realistic to ask of them, or would they be getting themselves in trouble by doing it? (i'm not too clued into the employers side of things here, as I work alone and im a fairly tiny one-man outfit in the grand scheme of things).


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    #68
    PickYourName
    Registered Users Posts: 412 ✭✭PickYourName


    babybuilder wrote: »
    I work as an accountant in practice. It is very hard to get clarification on this. I will try my sources in revenue tomorrow and get a definitive answer for us all.

    Thanks - I'd really appreciate that. I’ve already committed that they would get at least the €203 but I said I hoped it would be more – not a whole lot more as we literally don’t have the cash – but to at least get to part of the way to their previous earnings.

    They're a brilliant team who've show great loyalty and it's killing me I can't repay that even to a small extent.


  • Options
    #69
    punisher5112
    Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Folks, this may seem silly, but I am self employed. However, i really only work for one company (they treat me decently, and in fairness to them they pay me well, but the hours are all over the shop, so taking on other work is tricky, hence almost everything i do is for them).

    I'm practically out of a job as they're no doubt going to go to sleep for a few months. I wonder, would it be possible to request that they hire me for the Covid period as an employee, pay me the 203 per week, and then sack me when they get back up and running again? (so i'd still have an income, maintain my ties with them, etc.)

    As it stands, it looks like the business will just hit the 'resume' button when the covid period ends. I don't think I'd be permanently out of work, just temporarily whilst this is ongoing.

    Is this realistic to ask of them, or would they be getting themselves in trouble by doing it? (i'm not too clued into the employers side of things here, as I work alone and im a fairly tiny one-man outfit in the grand scheme of things).

    Why?

    You need to fill in the correct form that fits your situation.

    Obviously if you get other work or hours here and there you must inform revenue of this....


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    #70
    PickYourName
    Registered Users Posts: 412 ✭✭PickYourName


    Darc19 wrote: »
    That would be right as it's unemployment benefit and technically they should be available for work.

    My understanding is that is not the case - the whole point is they are retained on the "payroll" on the basis the expectation is that they will return to work at some point.

    My understanding is that there are two separate schemes:

    - one for people who've been laid off, and will have to find another job and who have to apply for the benefit themselves (50,000 of those and counting)

    - one for people who retain the link with their employer, even though they are not working, with the employer paying them whilst being reimbursed by Revenue to the tune of €203. In this case, the employer organises it, and the employee doesn't have to apply for anything

    or have I completely misunderstood things?


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    #71
    OttoPilot
    Registered Users Posts: 540 ✭✭✭OttoPilot


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Folks, this may seem silly, but I am self employed. However, i really only work for one company (they treat me decently, and in fairness to them they pay me well, but the hours are all over the shop, so taking on other work is tricky, hence almost everything i do is for them).

    I'm practically out of a job as they're no doubt going to go to sleep for a few months. I wonder, would it be possible to request that they hire me for the Covid period as an employee, pay me the 203 per week, and then sack me when they get back up and running again? (so i'd still have an income, maintain my ties with them, etc.)

    As it stands, it looks like the business will just hit the 'resume' button when the covid period ends. I don't think I'd be permanently out of work, just temporarily whilst this is ongoing.

    Is this realistic to ask of them, or would they be getting themselves in trouble by doing it? (i'm not too clued into the employers side of things here, as I work alone and im a fairly tiny one-man outfit in the grand scheme of things).

    This is a slippery path to go down because if you are currently a contractor/self employed and then you get put on their books, revenue could judge you to be an employee rather than a contractor for good. This can have important implications if you are claiming business expenses. No idea what your situation is but that is the first thing that jumps out at me.

    Secondly, this payment is not really aimed at the self employed, as far as I can see. So claiming it in this way may appear fraudulent from revenues point of view, and if that were the case, would have consequences for your client.

    There are definitely other negative considerations, I'm not even a tax accountant and I can spot these however. In short, I would advise against it and instead look for help from your bank. It's only 800ish a month, so if you're only out 3/4 months, you're talking about less than 5k. You should be able to finance that amount with a short term loan, especially if you can show that the client will restart trading with you in a few months.


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    #72
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 14,344 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    OttoPilot wrote: »
    This is a slippery path to go down because if you are currently a contractor/self employed and then you get put on their books, revenue could judge you to be an employee rather than a contractor for good. This can have important implications if you are claiming business expenses. No idea what your situation is but that is the first thing that jumps out at me.

    Secondly, this payment is not really aimed at the self employed, as far as I can see. So claiming it in this way may appear fraudulent from revenues point of view, and if that were the case, would have consequences for your client.

    There are definitely other negative considerations, I'm not even a tax accountant and I can spot these however. In short, I would advise against it and instead look for help from your bank. It's only 800ish a month, so if you're only out 3/4 months, you're talking about less than 5k. You should be able to finance that amount with a short term loan, especially if you can show that the client will restart trading with you in a few months.




    I'm bringing in just shy of €40k per year (pre-tax) so they're all amounts of money I'd feel going out of my pocket, nonetheless.


    I will stick my name on the coronavirus payment form, and see can I claim that for the 6 weeks. Hopefully by then I'll at least have a better idea what's happening. I've been lumping pretty much every penny I have off a house loan so I've left myself pretty exposed here (my own fault, of course).


    When the 6 weeks of that payment runs it's course, i'll hopefully be either getting ready to get back to work, or i'll, from the look of things, have to close up shop and go with my hat in hand to the social welfare office to become a 'full time mad bastard' for the forseeable ::(


  • Options
    #73
    PickYourName
    Registered Users Posts: 412 ✭✭PickYourName


    In relation to the refund scheme...

    The information at the following has changed:

    https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/612b90-covid-19-information-for-employers/

    On March 15:

    “We are encouraging employers to retain employees where possible, and as a result of these measures the Department is setting up a refund scheme for employers to pay staff which will pay them the €203 per week for each worker who would otherwise have been laid off in a situation where a business has to cease trading due to HSE advice on ‘social distancing’.”

    This now reads:

    “The department has just announced a refund scheme for employers. Under an arrangement developed with Revenue, employers who have to temporarily lay-off staff and who are not in a position to make any wage payment to them, are asked to keep their employees on the payroll and pay them an amount of €203 - the equivalent of the COVID-19 Support Payment.”

    I appreciate the fact that this is all being developed at breakkneck speed and the mechanism to repay through Revenue is completely new and is bound to change in the implementation details, but the actual criteria seemed to have changed. My assumption was that this was for companies who have ceased trading (which we have). The updated version seems to drop this requirement and replace it with an inability to pay. Now strictly speaking, we meet this too: we don't have the cash and what we're doing if we pay them more than the €203 is prioritising staff over creditors (including Revenue, who've agreed to defer PAYE and VAT payments due next week). The idea of topping up was not definitely present in the original wording (at least to my reading of it), as it was too unclear. It's a lot more explicit though in the Revenue description of the scheme.


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    #74
    jos28
    Registered Users Posts: 7,189 ✭✭✭jos28


    PickYourName wrote: »
    My understanding is that is not the case - the whole point is they are retained on the "payroll" on the basis the expectation is that they will return to work at some point.

    My understanding is that there are two separate schemes:

    - one for people who've been laid off, and will have to find another job and who have to apply for the benefit themselves (50,000 of those and counting)

    - one for people who retain the link with their employer, even though they are not working, with the employer paying them whilst being reimbursed by Revenue to the tune of €203. In this case, the employer organises it, and the employee doesn't have to apply for anything

    or have I completely misunderstood things?

    That is exactly as I understood it


  • Options
    #75
    babybuilder
    Registered Users Posts: 1,076 ✭✭✭babybuilder


    https://www.revenue.ie/en/news/articles/employer-covid-19-refund-scheme.aspx


    This is the most up to date revenue posting. I'll try now to get confirmation from revenue on correct interpretation regarding interaction with social welfare.


  • Options
    #76
    babybuilder
    Registered Users Posts: 1,076 ✭✭✭babybuilder


    My understanding is only pay €203. Then within 6 weeks employees must complete Social Welfare application and submit to Welfare if they are entitled to more than the €203 as a result of dependent children etc. I also did what another poster mentioned, top up if you can, the payment to employees by way of a loan. Note can only be operated for employees on payroll from01/02/20 to 15/03/20.


  • Options
    #77
    PickYourName
    Registered Users Posts: 412 ✭✭PickYourName


    babybuilder wrote: »
    https://www.revenue.ie/en/news/articles/employer-covid-19-refund-scheme.aspx


    This is the most up to date revenue posting. I'll try now to get confirmation from revenue on correct interpretation regarding interaction with social welfare.

    Thanks! You might also ask them about how to access any of this - I don't see the option as described when I log on to ROS.


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    #78
    PickYourName
    Registered Users Posts: 412 ✭✭PickYourName


    babybuilder wrote: »
    I also did what another poster mentioned, top up if you can, the payment to employees by way of a loan.

    Did you get some indication it was OK to do this? Even if you did, a loan is very different from pay.


  • Options
    #79
    babybuilder
    Registered Users Posts: 1,076 ✭✭✭babybuilder


    There is no issue with giving any person a loan from revenue point of view.


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    #80
    jos28
    Registered Users Posts: 7,189 ✭✭✭jos28


    Today's update from my dealings with Revenue. The information I was given on Monday was incorrect, they should have told us to hold off making any payments until they had finalised details. In fairness they have been working round the clock to design a scheme that has been thrown at them.
    No other payments can be made by the employer to the employee for the applicable week(s) and all temporarily laid off employees receive the €203 per week.
    The original details given by the Minister on the 6 -1 News regarding pro-rata payments is also incorrect. If any employee works at any stage of the week they do not qualify for the Covid payment. Unfortunately we cannot claim back the Covid payments we made this week. We explored several options such as deducting the value of those €203s from our P30 - no deal.
    Revenue were meeting with the payroll software suppliers today and they are hoping to have updated software available tomorrow.
    I have deleted the submission I made to Revenue, I rolled back our payroll. I am going to run it again after the payroll software has been updated and only put the Covid payments through. The only way I can think of getting round this is to consider the balance of the payments given to staff as a loan and sort it out when normality resumes.
    Myself and Babybuilder were obviously thinking along the same lines.


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    #81
    babybuilder
    Registered Users Posts: 1,076 ✭✭✭babybuilder


    Remember this €203 minimum payment is also available to self employed people. I'm new to this posting I'm on the husband's name, but I'll try and get the information I sent out today, regarding self employed people, on here.


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    #82
    PickYourName
    Registered Users Posts: 412 ✭✭PickYourName


    babybuilder wrote: »
    Remember this €203 minimum payment is also available to self employed people. I'm new to this posting I'm on the husband's name, but I'll try and get the information I sent out today, regarding self employed people, on here.

    That's correct, but payments can only be made to current employees/self-employed: you must have been on a payroll submission between 1st Feb and 15th March. This may catch out some who don't make regular submissions, though the other scheme should cover them (i.e. the one that's paid directly from DSP).


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    #83
    The_Honeybadger
    Registered Users Posts: 4,155 ✭✭✭The_Honeybadger


    babybuilder wrote: »
    Remember this €203 minimum payment is also available to self employed people. I'm new to this posting I'm on the husband's name, but I'll try and get the information I sent out today, regarding self employed people, on here.

    Does anybody know what the criteria is if you are self employed? Do you need to cease trading?

    I have a family member whose business has fallen off a cliff, there is still a trickle of sales but nowhere near enough to justify losing out on this payment if it is an option for them. I’ve had a look at the websites but I have t come across what I’m looking for


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    #84
    babybuilder
    Registered Users Posts: 1,076 ✭✭✭babybuilder


    babybuilder wrote: »
    Remember this €203 minimum payment is also available to self employed people. I'm new to this posting I'm on the husband's name, but I'll try and get the information I sent out today, regarding self employed people, on here.

    Below is the information I sent out today:


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    #85
    PickYourName
    Registered Users Posts: 412 ✭✭PickYourName


    Good report of the issue abot top-up payments:

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/employers-who-offer-more-than-state-s-covid-19-payment-will-not-be-refunded-1.4207366

    I'd be slow to criticise too much, as they must have put an incredible amount of work in to get this up and running in any form. I can also understand why it is done - it would be wide open to abuse - but it could be solved (for example, to restrict it to comapnies that have actually stopped trading).


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    #86
    jos28
    Registered Users Posts: 7,189 ✭✭✭jos28


    PickYourName wrote: »
    Good report of the issue abot top-up payments:

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/employers-who-offer-more-than-state-s-covid-19-payment-will-not-be-refunded-1.4207366

    I'd be slow to criticise too much, as they must have put an incredible amount of work in to get this up and running in any form. I can also understand why it is done - it would be wide open to abuse - but it could be solved (for example, to restrict it to comapnies that have actually stopped trading).

    I agree about the quick way Revenue have reacted to the curve ball thrown at them. There must have been some very stressful meetings over the past week. Payroll software companies should be releasing updates soon so hopefully that goes smoothly. I have one casual worker on payroll who does an average 17 hours per week, some weeks are full time and other only 1 or days per week. I initially thought I could give him a Pro rata Covid payment but that option is gone. I can't see anything on the Revenue update to say I can't give it, but if I do she would be coming out with more money :confused:


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    #87
    gary550
    Registered Users Posts: 638 ✭✭✭gary550


    does anyone know what the situation is for company directors & the covid 19 payment?

    Stopped self employment and started trading through a limited company in the last month and have yet to even pay myself, looking unlikely as the past two weeks have been very slow. Not holding out much hope for any uptake in trade anytime soon with the way things are going.

    Any advice would be appreciated.


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    #88
    PickYourName
    Registered Users Posts: 412 ✭✭PickYourName


    jos28 wrote: »
    I initially thought I could give him a Pro rata Covid payment but that option is gone. I can't see anything on the Revenue update to say I can't give it, but if I do she would be coming out with more money :confused:

    I think the reason there's no mention of any pro-rata payment is because it's one of the simplifying aspects: it doesn't matter how many hours were worked before, the only criteria is that they must be laid-off and they must have had a payroll payment submitted between 1st Feb and 15th March. In other words, everyone gets the same amount.

    The catch-all nature of it means it includes those non-EU people on Stamp 2 Visas who normally don’t get any social welfare (even though they pay PRSI – go figure) and part-time people.


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    #89
    Gloomtastic!
    Registered Users Posts: 8,353 ✭✭✭Gloomtastic!


    gary550 wrote: »
    does anyone know what the situation is for company directors & the covid 19 payment?

    Stopped self employment and started trading through a limited company in the last month and have yet to even pay myself, looking unlikely as the past two weeks have been very slow. Not holding out much hope for any uptake in trade anytime soon with the way things are going.

    Any advice would be appreciated.

    Jesus, that’s rough. They’ve only recently relented on benefits for sole traders, there’s never been anything for co. directors unless the company goes down I believe.

    There might be some wriggle room if you read here, ‘some company directors’.

    https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/irish_social_welfare_system/social_insurance_prsi/class_S_prsi.html


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    #90
    PickYourName
    Registered Users Posts: 412 ✭✭PickYourName


    gary550 wrote: »
    does anyone know what the situation is for company directors & the covid 19 payment?

    Stopped self employment and started trading through a limited company in the last month and have yet to even pay myself, looking unlikely as the past two weeks have been very slow. Not holding out much hope for any uptake in trade anytime soon with the way things are going.

    Any advice would be appreciated.

    I would think you'd be fine for the following:

    https://www.gov.ie/en/service/be74d3-covid-19-pandemic-unemployment-payment/

    That is, apply directly to this as an employee, rather than try and do it through the company and get a refund.

    It'll at least get you something for the next six weeks, until you can sort out if there's some other possibility.

    I note they've updated to clarify that non-EU/EEA people can apply too. They are not entitled to any payment whatsoever normally.


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    #91
    PickYourName
    Registered Users Posts: 412 ✭✭PickYourName


    This document has just been published:

    https://www.revenue.ie/en/employing-people/documents/pmod-topics/employer-covid-refund-scheme.pdf

    Haven't read it all yet, but looks to answer a lot of questions.


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