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Creche charging for child's place during closure.

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24567…30

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    #32
    Toastytoes
    Registered Users Posts: 435 ✭✭Toastytoes


    AulWan wrote: »
    Cancel your direct debit or standing order.

    But be prepared to have to look for a new place when business resumes as normal.

    If all parents cancelled their DD the crèche would be looking for new clients when business resumes. It works both ways, they can’t run a crèche with no kids. They should at least engage with parents and have a discussion about it. We were told pay up no choice. Full fees is taking the p.


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    #33
    Pawwed Rig
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 22,294 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    sooty1 wrote: »
    Quote: Staff will get the dole for the few weeks and their tax free allowance for the few weeks will be spread out over the rest of the year. Most are on minimum wage so the dole won't be a massive drop in wages. Factor in no travel or lunch costs.

    They would be taxable on their dole payments.


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    #34
    Daz_
    Registered Users Posts: 930 ✭✭✭Daz_


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    That's a reasonable request but full fees is taking parents for fools

    Agreed -provided they are guaranteeing the staff wages


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    #35
    mdwexford
    Registered Users Posts: 11,274 ✭✭✭✭mdwexford


    Don’t pay it.

    This will go on for months. Are people really going to pay a fortune for nothing.


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    #36
    Die Hard 2019
    Closed Accounts Posts: 362 ✭✭Die Hard 2019


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    About two thirds of their normal take home pay but they have no travel & lunch expenses. Maybe you don't realize how badly paid they are but going on the dole for a few weeks isn't going to make a huge difference to them at the end of the day.



    As mentioned already my daughter is in childcare & again across the country many of the parents have engaged staff from their local creche to mind their children so both parents can still work. These deals were worked out on the QT earlier this week when the rumors of a shutdown started. My daughter is part of childcare Facebook groups with members all over Ireland & it looks like very few childcare workers will suffer. Many will make more tax free money over the next few weeks than they would if the creche was still open.

    Minimum wage is €363 take home


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    #37
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users Posts: 16,891 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    Pawwed Rig wrote:
    They would be taxable on their dole payments.


    ???

    Dole isn't taxable.


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    #38
    bren2002
    Registered Users Posts: 1,198 ✭✭✭bren2002


    mdwexford wrote: »
    Don’t pay it.

    This will go on for months. Are people really going to pay a fortune for nothing.

    When we get to the end of this fortnight and possibly to the end of Easter I'll reassess. For the moment though I'm happy to keep paying, I won't see a cut in pay so I'm happy to try and continue to meet existing obligations.


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    #39
    dubrov
    Registered Users Posts: 3,549 ✭✭✭dubrov


    I understand the whole rationale of paying creche workers and passing on the costs through fees but even then the creche must be making huge savings on insurance, food, heating, wear and tear etc.

    Surely the fair middle ground is reduced fees to cover reduced running costs


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    #40
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Same as everyone else, we are expected to pay. I've already paid for March so I'm happy to let that go but if the closure extends into April it won't be possible. I would pay reduced rates but full fees is ridiculous, is it even legal?


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    #41
    Toastytoes
    Registered Users Posts: 435 ✭✭Toastytoes


    bren2002 wrote: »
    When we get to the end of this fortnight and possibly to the end of Easter I'll reassess. For the moment though I'm happy to keep paying, I won't see a cut in pay so I'm happy to try and continue to meet existing obligations.

    Can I ask are you still being paid if you stay home to mind the kids? I’m just curious of how people are managing. We will not be paid to simply stay home for childcare reasons, it’s either annual leave or completely unpaid.

    Why are paying customers expected to use annual leave while staff in the crèche are not? It’s the crèche that’s closed. It’s not a good situation for anyone but our crèche won’t meet us any bit of the way.


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    #42
    Sebastian Dangerfield
    Registered Users Posts: 1,793 ✭✭✭Sebastian Dangerfield


    Toastytoes wrote: »
    Can I ask are you still being paid if you stay home to mind the kids? I’m just curious of how people are managing. We will not be paid to simply stay home for childcare reasons, it’s either annual leave or completely unpaid.

    Why are paying customers expected to use annual leave while staff in the crèche are not? It’s the crèche that’s closed. It’s not a good situation for anyone but our crèche won’t meet us any bit of the way.

    Unfortunately due to the complete lack of intervention by government in childcare for years, creches hold all the power and can dictate the terms. It drives me mad, but I dont see it changing anytime soon.


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    #43
    Toastytoes
    Registered Users Posts: 435 ✭✭Toastytoes


    Sebastian Dangerfield wrote: »
    Unfortunately due to the complete lack of intervention by government in childcare for years, creches hold all the power and can dictate the terms. It drives me mad, but I dont see it changing anytime soon.

    They have the upper hand in March as we’ve already paid but they’ll be depending on us paying our fees in April to survive. The balance will shift a little then.


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    #44
    pwurple
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,449 ✭✭✭✭pwurple


    Full fees is a bit much if they are not paying staff, but any premises has overheads apart from staff.

    Rent. Insurance. Electricity. Water. Tax. Gas.


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    #45
    Toastytoes
    Registered Users Posts: 435 ✭✭Toastytoes


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    ???

    Dole isn't taxable.

    Dole is absolutely taxable. For someone who doesn’t have other earnings all year probably won’t earn enough to go over their tax credits but if you did you would absolutely pay tax on it and there is normally an adjustment of tax credits when someone returns to work to reflect the tax on the dole they received.


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    #46
    Toastytoes
    Registered Users Posts: 435 ✭✭Toastytoes


    pwurple wrote: »
    Full fees is a bit much if they are not paying staff, but any premises has overheads apart from staff.

    Rent. Insurance. Electricity. Water. Tax. Gas.

    Parents have overheads too, mortgage, food on the table, house insurance, health insurance, electricity, gas, It’s not sustainable for parents who are taking unpaid leave to mind their child to continue paying full fees.

    Apparently the matter is on the cabinet agenda for Monday so hopefully there’ll be some measures announced to help.


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    #47
    ax530
    Registered Users Posts: 458 ✭✭ax530


    Ours charging 50% during these 2 weeks. Will pay staff one week and then lay them off guess with aim of re-employment when open again
    Hope government can do something to help them out teachers are getting full pay while off.
    Can expect if this goes on months some will not reopen


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    #48
    ax530
    Registered Users Posts: 458 ✭✭ax530


    Ours charging 50% during these 2 weeks. Will pay staff one week and then lay them off guess with aim of re-employment when open again
    Hope government can do something to help them out teachers are getting full pay while off.
    Can expect if this goes on months some will not reopen


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    #49
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users Posts: 16,891 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    ax530 wrote:
    Ours charging 50% during these 2 weeks. Will pay staff one week and then lay them off guess with aim of re-employment when open again Hope government can do something to help them out teachers are getting full pay while off. Can expect if this goes on months some will not reopen


    I wonder what will happen if the lock down is extended? Northern Ireland looks like they might close schools for 16 weeks in the coming weeks according to reports today


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    #50
    Pawwed Rig
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 22,294 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    Toastytoes wrote: »
    Dole is absolutely taxable. For someone who doesn’t have other earnings all year probably won’t earn enough to go over their tax credits but if you did you would absolutely pay tax on it and there is normally an adjustment of tax credits when someone returns to work to reflect the tax on the dole they received.

    In this scenario on the assumption that the person was on 20k they would pay tax at 20% with tax credits of €3,300. So a tax of €700. They may also pay USC and PRSI.
    Their gross taxable salary will decrease by the difference in their wages lost and their dole for these weeks.

    There will be tax payable and it will not be withheld at source like PAYE. Hopefully their payroll will make the necessary adjustments which does not leave any under payments at year end or else they could get a bill from Revenue next Feb or March


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    #51
    linpoo
    Registered Users Posts: 234 ✭✭linpoo


    Minier81 wrote: »
    Job losses is exactly why I am happy to pay my creche. I don't want the staff there to lose their jobs because they can't afford to keep them.

    Same....gonna pay as normal.

    Sure with NCCS most people get a few quid off anyway.


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    #52
    TitianGerm
    Registered Users Posts: 27,820 ✭✭✭✭TitianGerm


    Of four creches I deal with

    One lady is paying her staff for two weeks and not charging parents anything to keep spaces open.

    One lady is making up the difference between her employees normal weekly wage and the social welfare payment. Also not charging parents anything to keep spaces open.

    One lady is not paying staff anything for the two weeks. Not sure about charging parents.

    One lady is not paying staff and is charging parents full fees.

    All owners have said they will still be receiving their payments from the Government.

    If the staff hear that other creches etc continue to pay staff it'll cause uproar in the creches that aren't paying. Much harder to keep your good staff in the long run if you don't treat them well and these decisions might come back to bite some owners further down the line.


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    #53
    Daz_
    Registered Users Posts: 930 ✭✭✭Daz_


    linpoo wrote: »
    Same....gonna pay as normal.

    Sure with NCCS most people get a few quid off anyway.

    Presume that you will be getting full pay and keeping your job no matter what happens here ?

    Most aren’t so fortunate , and being at home means no pay


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    #54
    AulWan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,653 ✭✭✭AulWan


    Toastytoes wrote: »
    If all parents cancelled their DD the crèche would be looking for new clients when business resumes. It works both ways, they can’t run a crèche with no kids. They should at least engage with parents and have a discussion about it. We were told pay up no choice. Full fees is taking the p.
    I agree.


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    #55
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,385 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Full fees here, but they said that if any parents suffer job losses or reduced earnings they will talk to them on a case by case basis.

    I am happy to pay the fees. Staff need wages. The creche going bust or losing all it's staff and ending up permanently closed would be an even bigger disaster than a temporary closure. There is already pressure on the childcare system.


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    #56
    Guffy
    Registered Users Posts: 8,036 ✭✭✭Guffy


    awec wrote: »
    Full fees here, but they said that if any parents suffer job losses or reduced earnings they will talk to them on a case by case basis.

    I am happy to pay the fees. Staff need wages. The creche going bust or losing all it's staff and ending up permanently closed would be an even bigger disaster than a temporary closure. There is already pressure on the childcare system.

    So reduced pay for fixed costs is quite reasonable


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    #57
    Toastytoes
    Registered Users Posts: 435 ✭✭Toastytoes


    awec wrote: »
    Full fees here, but they said that if any parents suffer job losses or reduced earnings they will talk to them on a case by case basis.

    I am happy to pay the fees. Staff need wages. The creche going bust or losing all it's staff and ending up permanently closed would be an even bigger disaster than a temporary closure. There is already pressure on the childcare system.

    Is it correct to assume you’re not facing any reduction in salary or pay arising from childcare issues due to crèche closing?

    It’s commendable wanting to pay full fees to keep the crèche going during this but the reality is the government have announced measures to helps businesses which have to close and are continuing to pay staff, while there are no measures for our family that have to take unpaid leave to mind our child while the crèche is closed but still have to pay full fees on reduced income.

    Crèches should be obliged to avail of the government support that is available before forcing parents to shoulder the full burden of this situation.

    I’m sure if your kids are not toddlers then maybe them amusing themselves for a few hours while you work from home is feasible and maybe your kids are availing of the early childhood preschool years so maybe you’re not paying full fees, but for people like us who have a one year old in full time hours it’s a different story.

    I’d love to be able to keep everyone in the salary they’re accustomed to but quite frankly that’s not going to be possible when we still have a mortgage to pay and household bills and a child to feed. Why would the crèche not expect to shoulder some of the load. They are a private business.

    Genuine question, would crèches not have some kind of insurance cover for this scenario? Disaster or continuity of business cover or something?


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    #58
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users Posts: 16,891 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    Toastytoes wrote:
    Genuine question, would crèches not have some kind of insurance cover for this scenario? Disaster or continuity of business cover or something?


    I doubt there is such a thing or that many crèches would have it if there is such a policy. I do agree that the creche owner should worry about staff wages and not the parents. Pubs and restaurants are now closed and most shops & places like hair salons will be closed in a few days. It's up to the employer to worry about the wages


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    #59
    Toastytoes
    Registered Users Posts: 435 ✭✭Toastytoes


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    I doubt there is such a thing or that many crèches would have it if there is such a policy. I do agree that the creche owner should worry about staff wages and not the parents. Pubs and restaurants are now closed and most shops & places like hair salons will be closed in a few days. It's up to the employer to worry about the wages

    But what would the basis excluding an interruption of trading like this? Is it consider and act of God? It’s actually an act of Government to shut them down (which I fully agree with). Would a terrorist attack also be excluded? What is the basis of not being covered other than for acts of god?

    It makes me quest if they just don’t want to claim or else don’t have a comprehensive policy.


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    #60
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users Posts: 16,891 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    Toastytoes wrote:
    But what would the basis excluding an interruption of trading like this? Is it consider and act of God? It’s actually an act of Government to shut them down (which I fully agree with). Would a terrorist attack also be excluded? What is the basis of not being covered other than for acts of god?

    I'm no expert on insurance but I believe that the business can be insured but I don't see how employee wages would be covered. Maybe I picked it up wrong but didn't the government announce that they will pay creche workers 305 euros per week for the two weeks? They are also paying the regular amount to the creche even though its closed.


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    #61
    Toastytoes
    Registered Users Posts: 435 ✭✭Toastytoes


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    I'm no expert on insurance but I believe that the business can be insured but I don't see how employee wages would be covered. Maybe I picked it up wrong but didn't the government announce that they will pay creche workers 305 euros per week for the two weeks? They are also paying the regular amount to the creche even though its closed.

    Well I mean the business would claim for loss of earnings/business, earnings are how the crèche would pay their staff. The government announced this evening that they will refund business who continue to pay their staff, now I don’t know the ins and outs of it, they didn’t go into detail on the news, I’m sure it’s not without limits which probably doesn’t suit my crèche given the 3 owner/managers are all from the same household. It’s a happy coincidence for them that they are directly benefiting from parents continuing to pay full fees in their own pay packets.


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