Citroen Ami

I'd rather walk

unkel wrote: »

As others said, it's a pity it can only do 45km/h. That really is not enough to safely take part in modern traffic imho.

Limiting the speed to 45KPH makes perfect sense. The biggest market is in European cities like France. You're unlikely to even hit 45KPH most of the time anyway. In France, limiting it to that speed, gives you access to the largest potential age group - 14 to death.

It also won't be too long before all cities bring in max speeds of 30KPH and congestion charges. Oslo will be banning all cars in their city centre in the next few years. I strongly suspect electric vehicles like the Ami will be exempt. Irish cities will follow suit at some point.

They could make another version that does 80kph has a larger battery (say 10kWh) and costs 10k Euro. I don't know if it would be as successful.

unkel wrote: »

I've never heard of anybody leasing a car for 10 years

Any normal lease of say anywhere between 1 and 5 years and it costs you more to lease than to buy.

I used 10 years as an extreme example as to how favourable the lease is.

Citroen are quoting 2,644 Euro plus 20 Euro a month (down payment includes 900 Euro for the French grant). That's 5,044 for 10 years taking it at face value. Lease is for 48 months plus; 3,604 Euro over 4 years. The only visible stipulation is the 10,000km limit per year.

https://www.citroen.fr/ami/duree-1-an-et-plus.html

It doesn't make sense to me to buy it. Plus if you wanted to sell it after a year you're competing with that very favourable lease. Let's say you try to sell it for 4k, the buyer has a choice of paying less than 2,700 initially for a brand new vehicle or 4k for a second hand car with the unknowns that go with second hand purchases and the battery is a year older.

I guess Citroen don't really care about the buying-outright market. They must be making more than enough to lease it at those prices. They seem to have tacked on a hefty margin for those who want to purchase it in full.

The car itself is a paradigm shift, but the leasing model is also a game changer. I don't really fully understand the strategy and economics behind it.

Is it better to have constant cash flow on a monthly basis than a one off lump payment? What happens to the car when the customer no longer wants to keep leasing it? Does it get refurbished and put back on the market? Are Citroen deliberately going with lower margins for market share and goodwill?

Will they offer upgrades or battery replacements down the line? With normal cars it would make no sense to do so, but with a rental/lease model that notion gets turned on its head. The bare bones nature of the car means it's technology shouldn't age. Your smartphone or tablet (for those wanting a larger screen) will provide all the interactive technology.

What I can see the Ami doing is building a large fan base of consumers and moving closer to cars being a commodity. I guess Citroen see this as inevitable too and want market share ahead of the competition.

unkel wrote: »

Don't tell me, you own a battery lease Zoe too? Makes more sense to pay the €89 per month so you have peace of mind about the battery?

No, leasing the Zoe or the Twizy battery makes zero financial sense to me. The case of the Ami is a lot different. I'd argue it's the opposite in fact. The leasing option is so good financially that it will be difficult to sell an outright purchased Ami on the second-hand market. Whereas the Zoe and Twizy without a battery lease are much more desirable than those with leases if you are purchasing second-hand (and if you are purchasing new too).

It is just way cheaper to lease the Ami if you plan on keeping it long term. It takes almost 14 years of ownership for the lease to work out more expensive than purchasing it. The second-hand market is going to be challenging when trying to sell this car, lease or no lease.

I'd be interested to see what Citroen's plans are for cars that are off-lease. If the battery degradation is minimal they could offer second cars for leasing with a reduced down-payment. Say, 1,500 instead of 2,644 Euro if the car is 3 or 4 years old - and then your 20 euro a month. In either scenario - they control the market - for new cars and second-hand cars.

No, I wouldn't be one to care too much about battery degradation.

As an aside, there are a few differences here with the Ami and a normal electric vehicle when it comes to battery degradation. The range is only 70km (this maybe conservative) on the Ami to start with - a lot lower than other electric cars - even urban runabouts.

We also don't know what chemistry the battery is using. All the electric cars on the European market, as far as I'm aware, use different types of lithium-ion chemistry (ignoring low production hypercars like the Concept One). But the Ami could very well have LiFePO4, if they want to maximise longevity. This is a chemistry that doesn't care that much about being charged to 100% and you can get rid of a cooling system (a battery heating system will still be needed to prevent the cells from being charged in freezing conditions).

Plus this is a car as a commodity. There isn't much that is going to age this vehicle, technology wise. As it doesn't have really any technology to begin with, its probably an ideal candidate for battery replacement down the road. I mean its has lights, a horn, a windscreen wiper, some speakers, a heater/ventilation system and a speed readout. How far do we have to go back in time before we reach a place where cars didn't have these things? The 1950s? The 1940s? The motor, controller and charger should last a long time. The outer panels are made of plastic...

unkel wrote: »

Why do you think that? What are the L7e requirements apart from the max weight (excl. batteries) of 450kg?

Apart from weight, there are dimensional requirements, a max speed of 90kph and max power of 15KW.

Weight is the reason. They are basically on the limit with the Ami. You're going to have to add more weight if you want to go faster.

A bigger motor is a few kg more, you need a larger inverter, I think the suspension would need to be upgraded, the seats would probably need extra padding. I think those changes alone would breach 450kg.

I can't see Citroen releasing an 80kph or 90kph version without airbags. They're not going to risk their reputation. There's a huge difference between an impact at 45kph and an impact at 80kph. The Twizy has extra protection for higher speeds. Those add weight. I believe that's the real reason the Twizy doesn't have doors.