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Citroen Ami

  • 29-02-2020 11:20am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 3,063 ✭✭✭ JohnC.


    First, let me say there are people on this forum who will clearly hate this as it won't do Dublin-Cork, won't fit 7 people and won't do 140. This car isn't for you.

    Well, I say car, but they've called it a "non-conformist mobility object". You can roll your eyes now.

    It's a tiny and cheap car. 2 seats. 45km/h. 70km range. €6,000. 6kW (8hp) motor, meaning, in France, it can be driven by people as young as 14 without a licence.

    Costs cut so much that the left and right doors are exactly the same, meaning one is hinged at the front and the other at the back. Minimal gauge cluster in front of the wheel. If you want extra stuff normally displayed on a central screen, you use your phone running an app and placed in a holder on the dash.

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 21,596 ✭✭✭✭ ted1


    The size isn’t an issue. There loads or cars this star in Europe already, generally 50cc engines. The price is quite competitive compared to the existing ones

    https://www.aixam.com/en/

    I like it.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 58,862 CMod ✭✭✭✭ unkel


    Nice that Citroen is recycling that friendly name :) Good price, ideal city car. Hope it launches here too.

    And it is better looking than the original too. Just. :p

    Citroen_Ami_8_February_1973_mfd_1972_602cc.jpg

    "Wind is Ireland's oil" - An Taoiseach, 25/05/2022



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,028 ✭✭✭ Lantus


    Just seen this and it's exactly the kind of disruptive innovation the car and ev market needs.

    Cheap as chips, great range makes it a viable 2nd or 3rd car choice. I'd consider one! Plus my lovely cheap octavia diesel.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,827 Mod ✭✭✭✭ peasant


    kinda like an e-bike with a roof ...and no pedals


  • Registered Users Posts: 177 ✭✭ Ce he sin


    ted1 wrote: »
    The size isn’t an issue. There loads or cars this star in Europe already, generally 50cc engines. The price is quite competitive compared to the existing ones

    https://www.aixam.com/en/

    I like it.
    They're small, but not 50cc small! The link you quoted refers to 480cc diesels and a few EVs.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 693 ✭✭✭ The Satanist


    I'd rather walk


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,596 ✭✭✭✭ ted1


    Ce he sin wrote: »
    They're small, but not 50cc small! The link you quoted refers to 480cc diesels and a few EVs.
    different classes, many in continental Europe are 50cc : https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadricycle_(EU_vehicle_classification)


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,166 ✭✭✭ marklazarcovic


    These are deadly,better than scooters at any rate


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,722 ✭✭✭ graememk


    If I had an off road version of it (ie like a John Deere gator) I would have one bought and sitting in the street asap

    Gators are at least 17k + vat new, go about 50km/h (ours has slowed to 45 with the wind behind you) , 2 seats and a good load bay.

    Does 200km with a fill of 20L diesel. We would rarely do 30k a day.


  • Registered Users Posts: 80 ✭✭ optimal


    graememk wrote: »
    If I had an off road version of it (ie like a John Deere gator) I would have one bought and sitting in the street asap

    Gators are at least 17k + vat new, go about 50km/h (ours has slowed to 45 with the wind behind you) , 2 seats and a good load bay.

    Does 200km with a fill of 20L diesel. We would rarely do 30k a day.

    Not sure if this is any good to you but might have applications for some. https://www.goupil-ev.com/


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  • Registered Users Posts: 737 ✭✭✭ Zenith74


    Very cool!

    Shame about the 45km/h, could get you being beeped at and passed erratically even on a spin across the city in the few areas you tend to get up to maybe 60km/h.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,722 ✭✭✭ graememk


    optimal wrote: »
    Not sure if this is any good to you but might have applications for some. https://www.goupil-ev.com/

    Ooohh never heard of one of them, the g2 would need a 4wd and a bit more clearance and it would be perfect! The biggest problem with the gator is it's acceleration, (belt driven cvt)

    The little car could be a great inner city car or even one to drive around some campus grounds or factories


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,157 ✭✭✭ Ubbquittious


    Is that a massive USB port in the door?

    Ireland's premier property crash prediction site




  • Registered Users Posts: 38,249 ✭✭✭✭ Guy:Incognito


    JohnC. wrote: »
    . If you want extra stuff normally displayed on a central screen, you use your phone running an app and placed in a holder on the dash.

    ]

    I like this. The whole infotainment system in cars could be done like that seeing as how so many people are trying to integrate their phones for stuff like that now. Have a tab on the app for other non vital info.

    If people (possibly older) don't want their phones for it they could sell an optional extra , a cheap android device that could be left in permanently . Could be done for 50 quid.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,661 ✭✭✭ Markcheese


    I'd rather walk

    And that's fine too ,

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,661 ✭✭✭ Markcheese


    How long before there's a souped up version ,with a bigger motor and bigger battery ...
    I think it's very cool ..

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Registered Users Posts: 177 ✭✭ Ce he sin


    ted1 wrote: »
    different classes, many in continental Europe are 50cc : https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadricycle_(EU_vehicle_classification)


    Yes, I've read the description too. You really don't see 50cc models, everybody goes for the 4 kW diesel option nowadays. Cars like this are referred to as voitures sans permis, cars without licences, in France where most are made and you often see them in and around smaller towns (Paris not so much). They're powered by industrial diesels and not surprisingly they sound like generators or other machines as they trundle around. Their selling point today is that as you don't need a licence to drive one you may be able to keep driving after a court imposed ban (judges may issue a complete ban on all driving depending on the circumstances). In this case it's common to hire them by the month for the duration. It's not cheap, not least because they're expensive to insure, a thing which follows on from the fact that by modern standards they're deathtraps.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,226 ✭✭✭ Valhallapt


    Does the roof come off?? Be a funky little summer car if it did


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 108 ✭✭ Joseph SEE


    JohnC. wrote: »
    First, let me say there are people on this forum who will clearly hate this as it won't do Dublin-Cork, won't fit 7 people and won't do 140. This car isn't for you.

    Well, I say car, but they've called it a "non-conformist mobility object". You can roll your eyes now.

    It's a tiny and cheap car. 2 seats. 45km/h. 70km range. €6,000. 6kW (8hp) motor, meaning, in France, it can be driven by people as young as 14 without a licence.

    Costs cut so much that the left and right doors are exactly the same, meaning one is hinged at the front and the other at the back. Minimal gauge cluster in front of the wheel. If you want extra stuff normally displayed on a central screen, you use your phone running an app and placed in a holder on the dash.

    I'd argue that it makes no sense to buy it outright when you can lease it for a down payment of 2,644 Euro and 20 Euro a month. You're unlikely to exceed 10k km per year (which is the limit on Citroen's French website). It's a terrific value proposition for urban dwellers even if Irish prices are likely to be 900 Euro higher due to the grant that France offers.

    I'm amazed at the price of those Aixam microcars you see in Amsterdam, Copenhagen and other European cities. Up to 15,000 Euro; not to mention polluting the air with their noisy diesel engines. The Ami should eat their lunch.

    The only worry is that Ireland will treat them like a full blown car instead of an electric scooter class quadricycle.

    Renault could have been leaders in this space if the Twizy had doors and a heater when you see what people are paying for those fossil Aixams. Citroen should do very well.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 58,862 CMod ✭✭✭✭ unkel


    As others said, it's a pity it can only do 45km/h. That really is not enough to safely take part in modern traffic imho.
    Joseph SEE wrote: »
    I'd argue that it makes no sense to buy it outright when you can lease it for a down payment of 2,644 Euro and 20 Euro a month.

    I don't get that?

    If you give it back after a year, that's the guts of 3k down the drain. If you bought it for 6k, you could easily sell it for 4k, so just 2k lost

    "Wind is Ireland's oil" - An Taoiseach, 25/05/2022



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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 108 ✭✭ Joseph SEE


    unkel wrote: »
    As others said, it's a pity it can only do 45km/h. That really is not enough to safely take part in modern traffic imho.



    I don't get that?

    If you give it back after a year, that's the guts of 3k down the drain. If you bought it for 6k, you could easily sell it for 4k, so just 2k lost

    Leasing only makes sense if you plan to keep it long term. Even if you kept it for 10 years it is still cheaper to lease. It's only costing you 240 Euro a year after you've paid the down payment.

    If you plan to only use it for a year or two then yes you should just buy it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 108 ✭✭ Joseph SEE


    unkel wrote: »
    As others said, it's a pity it can only do 45km/h. That really is not enough to safely take part in modern traffic imho.

    Limiting the speed to 45KPH makes perfect sense. The biggest market is in European cities like France. You're unlikely to even hit 45KPH most of the time anyway. In France, limiting it to that speed, gives you access to the largest potential age group - 14 to death.

    It also won't be too long before all cities bring in max speeds of 30KPH and congestion charges. Oslo will be banning all cars in their city centre in the next few years. I strongly suspect electric vehicles like the Ami will be exempt. Irish cities will follow suit at some point.

    They could make another version that does 80kph has a larger battery (say 10kWh) and costs 10k Euro. I don't know if it would be as successful.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 58,862 CMod ✭✭✭✭ unkel


    Joseph SEE wrote: »
    Leasing only makes sense if you plan to keep it long term. Even if you kept it for 10 years it is still cheaper to lease.

    I've never heard of anybody leasing a car for 10 years :p

    Any normal lease of say anywhere between 1 and 5 years and it costs you more to lease than to buy.

    "Wind is Ireland's oil" - An Taoiseach, 25/05/2022



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 108 ✭✭ Joseph SEE


    unkel wrote: »
    I've never heard of anybody leasing a car for 10 years :p

    Any normal lease of say anywhere between 1 and 5 years and it costs you more to lease than to buy.

    I used 10 years as an extreme example as to how favourable the lease is.

    Citroen are quoting 2,644 Euro plus 20 Euro a month (down payment includes 900 Euro for the French grant). That's 5,044 for 10 years taking it at face value. Lease is for 48 months plus; 3,604 Euro over 4 years. The only visible stipulation is the 10,000km limit per year.

    https://www.citroen.fr/ami/duree-1-an-et-plus.html

    It doesn't make sense to me to buy it. Plus if you wanted to sell it after a year you're competing with that very favourable lease. Let's say you try to sell it for 4k, the buyer has a choice of paying less than 2,700 initially for a brand new vehicle or 4k for a second hand car with the unknowns that go with second hand purchases and the battery is a year older.

    I guess Citroen don't really care about the buying-outright market. They must be making more than enough to lease it at those prices. They seem to have tacked on a hefty margin for those who want to purchase it in full.

    The car itself is a paradigm shift, but the leasing model is also a game changer. I don't really fully understand the strategy and economics behind it.

    Is it better to have constant cash flow on a monthly basis than a one off lump payment? What happens to the car when the customer no longer wants to keep leasing it? Does it get refurbished and put back on the market? Are Citroen deliberately going with lower margins for market share and goodwill?

    Will they offer upgrades or battery replacements down the line? With normal cars it would make no sense to do so, but with a rental/lease model that notion gets turned on its head. The bare bones nature of the car means it's technology shouldn't age. Your smartphone or tablet (for those wanting a larger screen) will provide all the interactive technology.

    What I can see the Ami doing is building a large fan base of consumers and moving closer to cars being a commodity. I guess Citroen see this as inevitable too and want market share ahead of the competition.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 58,862 CMod ✭✭✭✭ unkel


    Joseph SEE wrote: »
    It doesn't make sense to me to buy it. Plus if you wanted to sell it after a year you're competing with that very favourable lease. Let's say you try to sell it for 4k, the buyer has a choice of paying less than 2,700 initially for a brand new vehicle or 4k for a second hand car with the unknowns that go with second hand purchases and the battery is a year older.

    Don't tell me, you own a battery lease Zoe too? Makes more sense to pay the €89 per month so you have peace of mind about the battery? :p

    "Wind is Ireland's oil" - An Taoiseach, 25/05/2022



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 108 ✭✭ Joseph SEE


    unkel wrote: »
    Don't tell me, you own a battery lease Zoe too? Makes more sense to pay the €89 per month so you have peace of mind about the battery? :p

    No, leasing the Zoe or the Twizy battery makes zero financial sense to me. The case of the Ami is a lot different. I'd argue it's the opposite in fact. The leasing option is so good financially that it will be difficult to sell an outright purchased Ami on the second-hand market. Whereas the Zoe and Twizy without a battery lease are much more desirable than those with leases if you are purchasing second-hand (and if you are purchasing new too).

    It is just way cheaper to lease the Ami if you plan on keeping it long term. It takes almost 14 years of ownership for the lease to work out more expensive than purchasing it. The second-hand market is going to be challenging when trying to sell this car, lease or no lease.

    I'd be interested to see what Citroen's plans are for cars that are off-lease. If the battery degradation is minimal they could offer second cars for leasing with a reduced down-payment. Say, 1,500 instead of 2,644 Euro if the car is 3 or 4 years old - and then your 20 euro a month. In either scenario - they control the market - for new cars and second-hand cars.

    No, I wouldn't be one to care too much about battery degradation.

    As an aside, there are a few differences here with the Ami and a normal electric vehicle when it comes to battery degradation. The range is only 70km (this maybe conservative) on the Ami to start with - a lot lower than other electric cars - even urban runabouts.

    We also don't know what chemistry the battery is using. All the electric cars on the European market, as far as I'm aware, use different types of lithium-ion chemistry (ignoring low production hypercars like the Concept One). But the Ami could very well have LiFePO4, if they want to maximise longevity. This is a chemistry that doesn't care that much about being charged to 100% and you can get rid of a cooling system (a battery heating system will still be needed to prevent the cells from being charged in freezing conditions).

    Plus this is a car as a commodity. There isn't much that is going to age this vehicle, technology wise. As it doesn't have really any technology to begin with, its probably an ideal candidate for battery replacement down the road. I mean its has lights, a horn, a windscreen wiper, some speakers, a heater/ventilation system and a speed readout. How far do we have to go back in time before we reach a place where cars didn't have these things? The 1950s? The 1940s? The motor, controller and charger should last a long time. The outer panels are made of plastic...


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,827 Mod ✭✭✭✭ peasant


    in German ...but still pretty noisy and shaky :D



    better than walking in the rain ...but only just, IMO


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,352 ✭✭✭ Patser


    France has a history of microcars, where you don't need a licence and can drive from age 14. So that's where this fits in. Think of it more as an upgrade on an electric scooter. It could also be a big thing for car share companies (think Go Car) - so a good few of these parked up around a city for local runs or tourists.



    Link to French law:
    https://www.aixam.com/en/legislation


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 58,862 CMod ✭✭✭✭ unkel


    Cool car and I like that you have to use your phone to control certain functions of the car. Why build in a few hundred euro worth of parts if we all have them already

    €6900 in France, I presume after incentives? How much are they over there and how much would this car be here?

    "Wind is Ireland's oil" - An Taoiseach, 25/05/2022



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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,787 ✭✭✭✭ AMKC


    Patser wrote: »
    France has a history of microcars, where you don't need a licence and can drive from age 14. So that's where this fits in. Think of it more as an upgrade on an electric scooter. It could also be a big thing for car share companies (think Go Car) - so a good few of these parked up around a city for local runs or tourists.


    Link to French law:
    https://www.aixam.com/en/legislation

    Faur play to the French. It's very progressive unlike us Irish and our aggressive restrictive laws. I do not see this doing well here unless it's very well priced and it would probably only sell in Dublin and Belfast.


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