School using point system for punishment

happyoutish · 25-02-2020 3:33pm #1

Hi,

Just wondering does anyone have a son/daughter attend a secondary school were there is a point system used as punishment and if so what are your thoughts on it?

I have a close friend whose child is going through a really rough time at school right now because of these points, two teachers in particular seem to be throwing out points willy nilly and it has really started to affect the young persons confidence and they have become really withdrawn. The school are refusing to give a list of the points to the parents as requested and they have now issued detention for the young person without providing the information requested.

Anyone have any experience or advice on these point systems in school? Thanks.

ChippingSodbury · 25-02-2020 3:38pm

My kid's school also use a points system leading to detention and so on. It works pretty well but having said that, we've not been on the receiving end of it. Any points/ remarks are noted on the bottom section of the homework journal & initialled by the teacher. The school has a policy where everyone has to buy the same Homework Journal so there is space for which class/ reason code/ teacher initials in the table at the end of every week.

TheBoyConor · 25-02-2020 3:45pm

If it comes to a head you could write to the principal and let them know that your son will not be attending detention. They have no power whatsoever to detain him or restrict him. If you feel he is being unfairly treated and victimised you could threaten to take a case against the school for bullying and harassment.

As for the points, tell him to cop himself on and behave but to not get too worked up about points. They are only numbers on a sheet at the end of the day. Getting off very lightly - should consider himself lucky that it is 2020 and he's not being flogged asunder by a sadistic Christian Brother with a wire coat hanger like my brother.

Wildly Boaring · 25-02-2020 3:49pm

TheBoyConor wrote: »

If it comes to a head you could write to the principal and let them know that your son will not be attending detention. They have no power whatsoever to detain him or restrict him. If you feel he is being unfairly treated and victimised you could threaten to take a case against the school for bullying and harassment.

No wonder our teachers hate their job.
Of course the child will have to do detention.
Threatening to sue - ah the sign of a sane person

weldoninhio · 25-02-2020 3:52pm

Wildly Boaring wrote: »

No wonder our teachers hate their job.
Of course the child will have to do detention.
Threatening to sue - ah the sign of a sane person

Thats the world nowadays unfortunately. Act the git, disrupt everyone elses learning and then when there is consequences run crying to mammy. I remember my schooldays, the students who were "picked on" were generally the ones who had no interest in learning.

happyoutish · 25-02-2020 4:01pm

TheBoyConor wrote: »

If it comes to a head you could write to the principal and let them know that your son will not be attending detention. They have no power whatsoever to detain him or restrict him. If you feel he is being unfairly treated and victimised you could threaten to take a case against the school for bullying and harassment.

As for the points, tell him to cop himself on and behave but to not get too worked up about points. They are only numbers on a sheet at the end of the day. Getting off very lightly - should consider himself lucky that it is 2020 and he's not being flogged asunder by a sadistic Christian Brother with a wire coat hanger like my brother.

Yes this is very true!
I know they have told the principal that the child will not be attending Detention without them being given all the information. The child is a very quiet, mannerly child which is why this all seems to much for them.

They have told the child exactly what you have advised

i think they are going to talk to the Department of Education for advice also.

ChippingSodbury · 25-02-2020 4:04pm

Wildly Boaring wrote: »

No wonder our teachers hate their job.
Of course the child will have to do detention.
Threatening to sue - ah the sign of a sane person

I think that's a bit harsh to be honest. The school where my kid attends is run really well: it has a young new Principal for 5 or so years. Before that it was a disaster zone. I'm 99% sure that if my kid gets into trouble, it will be for genuine reasons. That's because of the way the school is managed and normal interactions with parents are handled. I would not have been able to say that of the same school if it was 8 or 9 years ago.

There may well be management issues in the OP's school, maybe not. The kid may be a troublemaker, maybe not. I'd be a little concerned for the management to flat-out reject interactions with a parent though. But maybe that's not all (of either side) of the story...

TheBoyConor · 25-02-2020 4:04pm

If the detention is affecting his mental wellbeing then it would be very poor form to force him to do it. Legally, the school have absolutely zero power nor right to detain him or compel him to do detention. A student can only go to detention if they themselves consent to it. If they were compelled to detention against their wishes by means of coercion, verbal or otherwise, or by being threatened with further sanctions, that amounts to bullying at the least or false imprisonment at the higher end of the scale.
They would be left in an indefensible position if they bullied him into detention knowing that it was affecting his mental state and it subsequently resulted in a development of anxiety issues, a nervous breakdown or potentially an even worse tragedy.

happyoutish · 25-02-2020 4:04pm

Wildly Boaring wrote: »

No wonder our teachers hate their job.
Of course the child will have to do detention.
Threatening to sue - ah the sign of a sane person

With respect, I have no interest in going into whether or not teachers hate their jobs, just looking at peoples opinion on the point system.

But thanks for your input.

witchgirl26 · 25-02-2020 4:04pm

So we had points as such in my school when I was there and if you got 3, you got a detention. There were some teachers who were a bit free with handing them out but that always came to a head as they always had high rates and a few times it happened where detentions were cancelled because such a large amount of them came from the teacher in question. The principal rightly saw that maybe there was a more a problem with the teacher than all the students they teach.

If your friend's child is the only person affected by this, you do have to ask questions as to if they are really telling the parents everything that is going on. However if there are other children who are being given lots of points by these teachers, maybe get a group of parents together to ask the school some questions in relation to that. Not attacking the school but more trying to get to the bottom as to why students who maybe don't get many points, get a lot from those teachers.

happyoutish · 25-02-2020 4:06pm

weldoninhio wrote: »

Thats the world nowadays unfortunately. Act the git, disrupt everyone elses learning and then when there is consequences run crying to mammy. I remember my schooldays, the students who were "picked on" were generally the ones who had no interest in learning.

Well i can tell you this is not the case. Does very well in tests, class assessments etc. this child does want to work, and wants to go to college and knows the work that has to be put in to get there.

Thanks for your input

happyoutish · 25-02-2020 4:10pm

witchgirl26 wrote: »

So we had points as such in my school when I was there and if you got 3, you got a detention. There were some teachers who were a bit free with handing them out but that always came to a head as they always had high rates and a few times it happened where detentions were cancelled because such a large amount of them came from the teacher in question. The principal rightly saw that maybe there was a more a problem with the teacher than all the students they teach.

If your friend's child is the only person affected by this, you do have to ask questions as to if they are really telling the parents everything that is going on. However if there are other children who are being given lots of points by these teachers, maybe get a group of parents together to ask the school some questions in relation to that. Not attacking the school but more trying to get to the bottom as to why students who maybe don't get many points, get a lot from those teachers.

there are a few more in the classes also. And even if the child was not telling them everything, the school is refusing to give them a list of the points

so that in itself is saying that the child is telling the truth is it not?

Thank you for you input

TheBoyConor · 25-02-2020 4:12pm

That is good, sounds like a good student.

I think the school should be reminded of his clearly very satisfactory academic performance and be warned that any attempt on their part to degrade him to Ordinary Level curriculae in any subjects without a very solid academic basis will be viewed as an unfair retributive measure.

In relation to the refusal of the school to give information on the points tell them this. They have 2 choices, they can disclose the information by agreement, or you can compel them to do so via a GDPR data access request, which will be a lot more difficult for them.

Wildly Boaring · 25-02-2020 4:12pm

happyoutish wrote: »

With respect, I have no interest in going into whether or not teachers hate their jobs, just looking at peoples opinion on the point system.

But thanks for your input.

Child is in trouble in school, parents should accept the punishment and ensure child stops disrupting class.
You're only looking for one answer here.

spurious · 25-02-2020 4:13pm

happyoutish wrote: »

there are a few more in the classes also. And even if the child was not telling them everything, the school is refusing to give them a list of the points so that in itself is saying that the child is telling the truth is it not?

Thank you for you input

That's quite a leap, in fairness, m'lud.

ChippingSodbury · 25-02-2020 4:28pm

spurious wrote: »

That's quite a leap, in fairness, m'lud.

As is this:

Wildly Boaring wrote: »

Child is in trouble in school, parents should accept the punishment and ensure child stops disrupting class.
You're only looking for one answer here.

If a school were unwilling to disclose information on a student or engage with a parent, I'd be pretty peeved. I'd have thought a school would only be delighted to explain in no uncertain terms why a student is being punished and what the consequences are. Why would they not take the opportunity to "take out the middle man" i.e. student and deal directly with a parent??

witchgirl26 · 25-02-2020 4:32pm

TheBoyConor wrote: »

In relation to the refusal of the school to give information on the points tell them this. They have 2 choices, they can disclose the information by agreement, or you can compel them to do so via a GDPR data access request, which will be a lot more difficult for them.

GDPR can't be used for everything. It relates to 2 personally identifying pieces of information. Points and what they relate to wouldn't necessarily fall under this.

happyoutish wrote: »

there are a few more in the classes also. And even if the child was not telling them everything, the school is refusing to give them a list of the points so that in itself is saying that the child is telling the truth is it not?

Thank you for you input

No it doesn't necessarily. Some of the best students in terms of results were some of the biggest disrupters in my year. My school never kept a list of what the points related to exactly. The principal would know how many you had but that was all.

Geuze · 25-02-2020 4:36pm

TheBoyConor wrote: »

If it comes to a head you could write to the principal and let them know that your son will not be attending detention. They have no power whatsoever to detain him or restrict him. If you feel he is being unfairly treated and victimised you could threaten to take a case against the school for bullying and harassment.

Would it not be better to simply stop the bad behaviour that leads to the points?

ThreeGreens · 25-02-2020 4:44pm

Geuze wrote: »

Would it not be better to simply stop the bad behaviour that leads to the points?

Normally I'd totally agree with this. If the child is getting into trouble, then they will be punished and the parent should support this.

But if the school won't tell the parent what the child is being punished for, then how can they attempt to address the issue?

I wonder why the school is refusing to say? Does the parents have 'an attitude'?

There is something here that doesn't quite add up. I think part of the story is missing.

Wombatman · 25-02-2020 4:48pm

TheBoyConor wrote: »

If the detention is affecting his mental wellbeing then it would be very poor form to force him to do it. Legally, the school have absolutely zero power nor right to detain him or compel him to do detention. A student can only go to detention if they themselves consent to it. If they were compelled to detention against their wishes by means of coercion, verbal or otherwise, or by being threatened with further sanctions, that amounts to bullying at the least or false imprisonment at the higher end of the scale.
They would be left in an indefensible position if they bullied him into detention knowing that it was affecting his mental state and it subsequently resulted in a development of anxiety issues, a nervous breakdown or potentially an even worse tragedy.

This is a load of rubbish really. Stop acting the maggot and the points will stop most likely.

Detention is designed to affect ones mental well being BTW.

Most schools already have a code of behaviour that sets out how students will punished for breaching it. It is assumed that parents agree to the punishments set out in the code if they are told about the code when their child starts school. As a result, if the punishment is detention, the parents or student cannot claim that the student has been falsely imprisoned.

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/education/primary_and_post_primary_education/attendance_and_discipline_in_schools/school_discipline.html

Raisins · 25-02-2020 4:52pm

Geuze wrote: »

Would it not be better to simply stop the bad behaviour that leads to the points?

Imagine getting detention as a teenager, coming home to tell your parents it wasn’t your fault (as every teenager has since time began), and your parents demand a full breakdown of your points and go to the department of education.

Talk about a massive escalation, parents must have no understanding of school.

happyoutish · 25-02-2020 5:09pm

Wildly Boaring wrote: »

Child is in trouble in school, parents should accept the punishment and ensure child stops disrupting class.
You're only looking for one answer here.

Absolutely not, I'm looking for peoples opinions, advice and any experience they have with a points system. The parents totally understand and have always been of the same opinion, do the crime do the time. They feel that this has been done unfairly and with the school refusing to give the information the parents have asked for they are just looking for other peoples opinions and experiences. I'm well aware that some teachers dislike their jobs, lots of people dislike their jobs. Nobody is here to be after teachers, just looking for different opinions and peoples experience on the points system, have you any?

Thanks for your input

happyoutish · 25-02-2020 5:11pm

ThreeGreens wrote: »

Normally I'd totally agree with this. If the child is getting into trouble, then they will be punished and the parent should support this.

But if the school won't tell the parent what the child is being punished for, then how can they attempt to address the issue?

I wonder why the school is refusing to say? Does the parents have 'an attitude'?

There is something here that doesn't quite add up. I think part of the story is missing.

Yes, I totally agree with this, the parents have requested in writing a detailed report as it is totally out of character for their child. They have since written to the school requesting a meeting. As i've said before the child is a good student, wants to do well,wants to go to college and the parents go by do the crime do the time.

thanks for your input

Wombatman · 25-02-2020 5:17pm

happyoutish wrote: »

Hi,

Just wondering does anyone have a son/daughter attend a secondary school were there is a point system used as punishment and if so what are your thoughts on it?

I have a close friend whose child is going through a really rough time at school right now because of these points, two teachers in particular seem to be throwing out points willy nilly and it has really started to affect the young persons confidence and they have become really withdrawn. The school are refusing to give a list of the points to the parents as requested and they have now issued detention for the young person without providing the information requested.

Anyone have any experience or advice on these point systems in school? Thanks.

You seem to know a bit about the situation. What explanation did the child give for getting the points \ detention?

ChippingSodbury · 25-02-2020 5:22pm

Raisins wrote: »

Imagine getting detention as a teenager, coming home to tell your parents it wasn’t your fault (as every teenager has since time began), and your parents demand a full breakdown of your points and go to the department of education.

Talk about a massive escalation, parents must have no understanding of school.

and your parents demand a full breakdown of your points

Why would this not be available??? It is available in the school my kid attends. It is also a requirement of parents to attend for a meeting if something a bit more serious than detention points are "awarded". I might reiterate that the school my kid attends is a very well-run, non-fee-paying, run of the mill 2nd level school. The school staff engage with the students and vice versa as do the parents with the staff. It's not perfect but certainly not bad.

If a list is not available, surely the school would still want to talk to the parent if the parent wanted an explanation. The kid may be an absolute nightmare in the school so surely it's in the school's interest to engage with the parent, no?

parents must have no understanding of school.

What a ridiculous comment.

happyoutish · 25-02-2020 5:22pm

Wombatman wrote: »

You seem to know a bit about the situation. What explanation did the child give for getting the points \ detention?

Yes, not all but some, it is my best friends child. So I have been listening to a very frustrated mother and father for some weeks now

one day there was 10 points given for having a pen in their mouth and they were then told that they were defiant. Another day it was because they were getting something from their bag and another day for something dropping off their desk.

TheBoyConor · 25-02-2020 5:27pm

This is a load of rubbish really. Stop acting the maggot and the points will stop most likely.

Detention is designed to affect ones mental well being BTW.

Quote:
Most schools already have a code of behaviour that sets out how students will punished for breaching it. It is assumed that parents agree to the punishments set out in the code if they are told about the code when their child starts school. As a result, if the punishment is detention, the parents or student cannot claim that the student has been falsely imprisoned.
https://www.citizensinformation.ie/e...iscipline.html

That is all well and good as long as the parents and student consented to it and maintain their consent. However, a student could, depending on circumstance, withdraw that consent and wish to walk out of detention.
if they chose to walk out of detention the school or the staff have absolutely no legal right nor power to restrain, restrict the student from leaving, nor apprehend, or force them to return if they have left. The school policy is an agreement and it only has effect as long as the parties maintain their consent to the agreement. The law of the land would supercede any such agreement anyway.

Realistically, if a student walked out of detention, what could the school staff actually do about it? Lock the doors? physically restrain the student? send someone to apprehend them and return them to the school? Expel them despite the student excelling academically?
Obviously, any of those measures would be totally extreme and over the top.
The school have no legal power to detain anyone nor force anyone to do anything. It is all just subject to school, parent and student maintaining a mutual agreement on the policy.

Real world, a secondary school student could get up and walk out of detention any moment and walk out the front door. And there would be nothing teachers nor principal could do about it only look out the window at him. Quite frankly, what are they going to do about it?

kennethsmyth · 25-02-2020 5:31pm

Wildly Boaring wrote: »

No wonder our teachers hate their job.
Of course the child will have to do detention.
Threatening to sue - ah the sign of a sane person

No the child does not have to do detention, without clear transparency of the reasons for it. These have been asked for and not given.

I absolutely agree if my child is acting up in school that there will be consequences but I also believe that it has to be justified and shown to be fact not just an unknown number without transparency

ChippingSodbury · 25-02-2020 5:32pm

TheBoyConor wrote: »

That is all well and good as long as the parents and student consented to it and maintain their consent. However, a student could, depending on circumstance, withdraw that consent and wish to walk out of detention.
if they chose to walk out of detention the school or the staff have absolutely no legal right nor power to restrain, restrict the student from leaving, nor apprehend, or force them to return if they have left. The school policy is an agreement and it only has effect as long as the parties maintain their consent to the agreement. The law of the land would supercede any such agreement anyway.

Realistically, if a student walked out of detention, what could the school staff actually do about it? Lock the doors? physically restrain the student? send someone to apprehend them and return them to the school? Expel them despite the student excelling academically?
Obviously, any of those measures would be totally extreme and over the top.
The school have no legal power to detain anyone nor force anyone to do anything. It is all just subject to school, parent and student maintaining a mutual agreement on the policy.

Real world, a secondary school student could get up and walk out of detention at moment and walk out the front door. And there would be nothing teachers nor principal could do about it only look out the window at him. Quite frankly, what are they going to do about it?

Ah Jaysus! You may be factually correct on actual detention as in holding someone without their consent but I'd guess the school would have a problem (and rightly so) with a student who refuses to obey the school rules. Most parents are looking for a school where all students obey the rules, get a good education and are ready for the real world when they leave. If there's no discipline and mutual respect, there'll be no good outcomes...

Wombatman · 25-02-2020 5:35pm

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Real world, a secondary school student could get up and walk out of detention at moment and walk out the front door. And there would be nothing teachers nor principal could do about it only look out the window at him. Quite frankly, what are they going to do about it?

Most likely they would be suspended, and correctly so IMHO.

Please don't ask what the school could do legally to stop the child returning to school again.

There is more to being a good student than a good academic record. It would be very wrong to bring a child's academic record into a decision on misbehaviour.

Should bullies be let off because they are good at sums?

Wildly Boaring · 25-02-2020 5:35pm

[QUOTE=TheBoyConor;112643977} Quite frankly, what are they going to do about it?[/QUOTE]

Escalate
Suspend
Expel

kennethsmyth · 25-02-2020 5:39pm

Wildly Boaring wrote: »

Escalate
Suspend
Expel

Could be considered malicious victimisation
Department of eductation
Court action

Only if the school is unwilling to be transparent and wishes to continue down that path by escalating.

kennethsmyth · 25-02-2020 5:40pm

ChippingSodbury wrote: »

Ah Jaysus! You may be factually correct on actual detention as in holding someone without their consent but I'd guess the school would have a problem (and rightly so) with a student who refuses to obey the school rules. Most parents are looking for a school where all students obey the rules, get a good education and are ready for the real world when they leave. If there's no discipline and mutual respect, there'll be no good outcomes...

You mentioned mutual respect - absolutely and that goes to the school showing why the child has received points not just a number.

Wildly Boaring · 25-02-2020 5:41pm

kennethsmyth wrote: »

Could be considered malicious victimisation
Department of eductation
Court action

Only if the school is unwilling to be transparent and wishes to continue down that path by escalating.

Look i honestly have no idea.
I'm not in that line of work or any board of management.

The question was basically if he just walks out of detention what they gonna do about it.

I presume they escalate according to whatever policy the school has in place.

kennethsmyth · 25-02-2020 5:42pm

Odds are the school has not kept reasons for the points. If they were clever they would agree to a meeting and state that the childs behaviour needs to improve with the child present and that its water under the bridge so long as all agree to move forward. In other words make an omelette out of the broken egg.

?Cee?view · 25-02-2020 5:44pm

TheBoyConor wrote: »

That is all well and good as long as the parents and student consented to it and maintain their consent. However, a student could, depending on circumstance, withdraw that consent and wish to walk out of detention.
if they chose to walk out of detention the school or the staff have absolutely no legal right nor power to restrain, restrict the student from leaving, nor apprehend, or force them to return if they have left. The school policy is an agreement and it only has effect as long as the parties maintain their consent to the agreement. The law of the land would supercede any such agreement anyway.

Realistically, if a student walked out of detention, what could the school staff actually do about it? Lock the doors? physically restrain the student? send someone to apprehend them and return them to the school? Expel them despite the student excelling academically?
Obviously, any of those measures would be totally extreme and over the top.
The school have no legal power to detain anyone nor force anyone to do anything. It is all just subject to school, parent and student maintaining a mutual agreement on the policy.

Real world, a secondary school student could get up and walk out of detention any moment and walk out the front door. And there would be nothing teachers nor principal could do about it only look out the window at him. Quite frankly, what are they going to do about it?

What chance has any child got in the real world if they learn from their parents that this is considered by them to be an appropriate reaction?

Wombatman · 25-02-2020 5:46pm

What have we come to, that we have gone from a few disciplinary points and one detention, to lawsuits and court action in a couple of posts.

Common sense would suggest the parents call in to the school and have a chat.

TheBoyConor · 25-02-2020 5:51pm

Wildly Boaring wrote: »

Escalate
Suspend
Expel

You have mentioned three words there. Escalate, Suspend, Expel.

As a student or parent I would respond with one word.......Appeal !

Suspension would be a disproportionate penalty to a refusal to attend detention, especially if the student and their parents felt that the detention was negatively affecting their state of mind and mental well being. It would be indefensible in my opinion.

Expulsion would be wildly disproportionate. Do you have any idea how difficult it is to expel a student, even when there are extreme levels of verbal abuse and physical violence. It is an extremely difficult and arduous process to have a student expelled. When a student is polite, well mannered and excelling academically, but just refusing to be detained it would be indefensible and nigh on impossible to justify expulsion.
Barring some extreme circumstances that make impossible or unsafe to allow the student to remain or if it is severely and tangibly affecting other student's learning, the obligation of a school to provide education to the student would trump any desire the school would have to expel or suspend the student. A student that is otherwise well mannered and academically satisfactory declining to be detained would not, in my view, make it impossible or unsafe to teach them, nor materially affect other students' learning in a tangible, negative way.
I wouldn't rate my chances of securing an expulsion as a principal in this a case like this.

?Cee?view · 25-02-2020 5:55pm

TheBoyConor wrote: »

You have mentioned three words there. Escalate, Suspend, Expel.

As a student or parent I would respond with one word.......Appeal !

Suspension would be a disproportionate penalty to a refusal to attend detention, especially if the student and their parents felt that the detention was negatively affecting their state of mind and mental well being. It would be indefensible in my opinion.

Expulsion would be wildly disproportionate. Do you have any idea how difficult it is to expel a student, even when there are extreme levels of verbal abuse and physical violence. It is an extremely difficult and arduous process to have a student expelled. When a student is polite, well mannered and excelling academically, but just refusing to be detained it would be indefensible and nigh on impossible to justify expulsion.
Barring some extreme circumstances that make impossible or unsafe to allow the student to remain or if it is severely and tangibly affecting other student's learning, the obligation of a school to provide education to the student would trump any desire the school would have to expel or suspend the student. A student that is otherwise well mannered and academically satisfactory declining to be detained would not, in my view, make it impossible or unsafe to teach them, nor materially affect other students' learning in a tangible, negative way.
I wouldn't rate my chances of securing an expulsion as a principal in this a case like this.

This child will excel in difficult work place situations when they can rely on their parents to deal with their manager...:rolleyes:

happyoutish · 25-02-2020 5:56pm

Wombatman wrote: »

What have we come to, that we have gone from a few disciplinary points and one detention, to lawsuits and court action in a couple of posts.

Common sense would suggest the parents call in to the school and have a chat.

Yes agree

I was only looking for opinions, experience advice.. what have i started! :eek:

I can safely say there will be no court or anything like that. The parents are waiting to hear back from the school about a meeting. They are frustrated how the whole thing has played out and the how the school are refusing to give the reasoning for the points, which i think is a fair enough request.

Speaking of court :rolleyes:you are not going to be sent to jail without the judge hearing your crimes same applies here I would have thought?!

I was just looking to see if anyone else had a similar experience or think that the point system is good bad or indifferent..

Wildly Boaring · 25-02-2020 5:58pm

TheBoyConor wrote: »

You have mentioned three words there. Escalate, Suspend, Expel.

As a student or parent I would respond with one word.......Appeal !

Suspension would be a disproportionate penalty to a refusal to attend detention, especially if the student and their parents felt that the detention was negatively affecting their state of mind and mental well being. It would be indefensible in my opinion.

Expulsion would be wildly disproportionate. Do you have any idea how difficult it is to expel a student, even when there are extreme levels of verbal abuse and physical violence. It is an extremely difficult and arduous process to have a student expelled. When a student is polite, well mannered and excelling academically, but just refusing to be detained it would be indefensible and nigh on impossible to justify expulsion.
Barring some extreme circumstances that make impossible or unsafe to allow the student to remain or if it is severely and tangibly affecting other student's learning, the obligation of a school to provide education to the student would trump any desire the school would have to expel or suspend the student. A student that is otherwise well mannered and academically satisfactory declining to be detained would not, in my view, make it impossible or unsafe to teach them, nor materially affect other students' learning in a tangible, negative way.
I wouldn't rate my chances of securing an expulsion as a principal in this a case like this.

Child walks clean out of detention.
School says Jeez that's grand why didn't any of them do that before.

Escalate.....
No idea what is first on their procedure for escalation, but it wont be a pat on the back.

ITman88 · 25-02-2020 5:58pm

?Cee?view wrote: »

This child will excel in difficult work place situations when they can rely on their parents to deal with their manager...:rolleyes:

Was just about to post something very similar, absolutely no coping skills whatsoever will be indoctrinated into those sheltered kids.
I was lucky my mam was a though old nut growing up, If a teacher gave me detention, a detention was the least of my worries when I got home

kennethsmyth · 25-02-2020 6:00pm

Wombatman wrote: »

What have we come to, that we have gone from a few disciplinary points and one detention, to lawsuits and court action in a couple of posts.

Common sense would suggest the parents call in to the school and have a chat.

According to OP they have tried to have a meeting and requested the reasons for the points but its not happened.

I have no problem with punishment fitting the crime but there is no transparency here at present.

kennethsmyth · 25-02-2020 6:02pm

Wildly Boaring wrote: »

Child walks clean out of detention.
School says Jeez that's grand why didn't any of them do that before.

Escalate.....
No idea what is first on their procedure for escalation, but it wont be a pat on the back.

If the child has been told / given instructions by the parent to come straight home then the school needs to talk with parents first.

The problem here is the school refusing to be transparent in their dealings with the child. If you were given a reprimand in your workplace you would be told the reasons why.

TheBoyConor · 25-02-2020 6:04pm

?Cee?view wrote: »

This child will excel in difficult work place situations when they can rely on their parents to deal with their manager...:rolleyes:

Was just about to post something very similar, absolutely no coping skills whatsoever will be indoctrinated into those sheltered kids.

On the contrary, you know what? It will stand to them if they are ever in situations where one party, be it an employer or a competing opponent in some shere, is trying to get one over on them if they can get away with it. The will see that a well thought out rebuttal, backed up by a reasonable knowledge of rights and law, can challenge the opponent successfully and get a positive outcome.

Might be as good a days learning as they will ever have school if they were at that meeting and this was threshed out across the principal's desk.

kennethsmyth · 25-02-2020 6:10pm

TheBoyConor wrote: »

On the contrary, you know what? It will stand to them if they are ever in situations where one party, be it an employer or a competing opponent in some shere, is trying to get one over on them if they can get away with it. The will see that a well thought out rebuttal, backed up by a reasonable knowledge of rights and law, can challenge the opponent successfully and get a positive outcome.

Might be as good a days learning as they will ever have school if they were at that meeting and this was threshed out across the principal's desk.

Agreed, teacher, principal, parents and child all at a meeting out in the open and go through all the issues like grown ups.

TheBoyConor · 25-02-2020 6:11pm

Could be considered malicious victimisation
Department of eductation
Court action

Only if the school is unwilling to be transparent and wishes to continue down that path by escalating.

Absolutely, for things as OP says, getting 10 points for the likes of having a pen end in their mouth, getting something from their bag, dropping something. I, and any reasonable person, would see this as a gross exaggeration and an abuse of the points system.
Since it is taking place on a sustained and repeated basis, it a very convincing argument could be made that it is malicious, victimizing and bullying behaviour on the part of an experienced professional teacher who really ought to know better and exercise greater self control than their students, all being effectively endorsed by the principal by their willingness to knowingly allowing it to continue despite being made plainly aware that it is having a negative impact on the student's state of mind and mental well being.

If i were a principal faced with these arguments across my desk, I would find it extremely challenging to mount a any sort of reasonably credible rebuttal.

Raisins · 25-02-2020 6:13pm

ChippingSodbury wrote: »

Why would this not be available??? It is available in the school my kid attends. It is also a requirement of parents to attend for a meeting if something a bit more serious than detention points are "awarded". I might reiterate that the school my kid attends is a very well-run, non-fee-paying, run of the mill 2nd level school. The school staff engage with the students and vice versa as do the parents with the staff. It's not perfect but certainly not bad.

If a list is not available, surely the school would still want to talk to the parent if the parent wanted an explanation. The kid may be an absolute nightmare in the school so surely it's in the school's interest to engage with the parent, no?

What a ridiculous comment.

Why are you so shocked that the breakdown mightn’t be available? This is a school setting : there’s literally hundreds of students in most secondary schools with multiple incidents happening every class that might or might not necessitate a point depending on the context. If speaking while a teacher is speaking or distracting the class gets a point (I don’t know if it would), does the teacher then: stop teaching, correct behaviour, note the point and then separately add it to a master record with an explanation so that’s a available in the even a parent wants to challenge? If a teacher has to hand out points to 3/4/5 students what happens to the lesson if that’s the process on each occasion. Correcting a student alone kills momentum before you even get into that bureaucracy.

Points system seems sensible at a departmental conference but challenging parents will bring a end to it fairly quickly. Just let the teacher do his / her job - it’s not a criminal summons - unless there’s multiple detentions or incidents I can’t see how a parent can consider those demands reasonable. Btw I’m not a teacher.

ITman88 · 25-02-2020 6:14pm

TheBoyConor wrote: »

On the contrary, you know what? It will stand to them if they are ever in situations where one party, be it an employer or a competing opponent in some shere, is trying to get one over on them if they can get away with it. The will see that a well thought out rebuttal, backed up by a reasonable knowledge of rights and law, can challenge the opponent successfully and get a positive outcome.

Might be as good a days learning as they will ever have school if they were at that meeting and this was threshed out across the principal's desk.

But in this case all the child is doing is saying it wasn’t me, and getting mammy to stand up for him. The child is not standing up for himself, it’s just saying I didn’t do anything mammy, but I see it myself with my own nephew. Not picked for the football team, in goes his mother to the school to discuss with coach. Nothing about the extra practice he could do with

Effects · 25-02-2020 6:28pm

happyoutish wrote: »

Absolutely not, I'm looking for peoples opinions, advice and any experience they have with a points system.

We had a points system when I was in school in the 90s.
The more points you got, the more worried you were that you'd get detention, so you tried harder to not get points.

I don't think my parents were ever informed what the points I got were for.

I once got two points, undeservedly, that pushed me over the limit and earned me a detention. I did earn the other points though. And I was upset about it, as I'd have to explain detention to my parents.

Detention is part of school. Earning it with points is fine, and it's understandable that some teachers hand out points more than others.

It's a good lesson for life really.

As for the poster who said they have no power to make you go to detention.
That's a pretty good lesson to learn for later in life. If you don't like the rules in your workplace, you can just walk out the door. Good luck progressing in your job and career with that attitude.

sullivlo · 25-02-2020 6:28pm

I had an incident with a student recently. Our discipline system is similar to the one mentioned here.

I disciplined a student. The parent requested a call, so I rang. A tirade of abuse followed. “Why are you picking on my child” etc. I explained why I disciplined the child (no homework attempted, no class work taken down from the board, no exam papers with additional homework in them brought to class, didn’t stay back when requested). The parent said that the child only mentioned not having the homework done, none of the rest of it. Once explained, the parent accepted the discipline action and spoke to the child.

Detentions generally are not given for something innocent or a first offence. Sounds like there could be more sides to the story.

As for the idea of refusing to sit detention..... Ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous. If students don’t learn discipline now, what will they do when they get to the real world?! They can’t get mammy to fight their battles if they make it to third level, and they can’t use mammy to get them out of trouble in work. Resilience is seriously lacking in current generation, and they don’t like having to deal with the consequences of their actions.

School using point system for punishment

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