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School using point system for punishment

happyoutish

Hi,

Just wondering does anyone have a son/daughter attend a secondary school were there is a point system used as punishment and if so what are your thoughts on it?

I have a close friend whose child is going through a really rough time at school right now because of these points, two teachers in particular seem to be throwing out points willy nilly and it has really started to affect the young persons confidence and they have become really withdrawn. The school are refusing to give a list of the points to the parents as requested and they have now issued detention for the young person without providing the information requested.

Anyone have any experience or advice on these point systems in school? Thanks.

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ChippingSodbury

My kid's school also use a points system leading to detention and so on. It works pretty well but having said that, we've not been on the receiving end of it. Any points/ remarks are noted on the bottom section of the homework journal & initialled by the teacher. The school has a policy where everyone has to buy the same Homework Journal so there is space for which class/ reason code/ teacher initials in the table at the end of every week.

TheBoyConor

If it comes to a head you could write to the principal and let them know that your son will not be attending detention. They have no power whatsoever to detain him or restrict him. If you feel he is being unfairly treated and victimised you could threaten to take a case against the school for bullying and harassment.

As for the points, tell him to cop himself on and behave but to not get too worked up about points. They are only numbers on a sheet at the end of the day. Getting off very lightly - should consider himself lucky that it is 2020 and he's not being flogged asunder by a sadistic Christian Brother with a wire coat hanger like my brother.

Wildly Boaring

TheBoyConor wrote: »

If it comes to a head you could write to the principal and let them know that your son will not be attending detention. They have no power whatsoever to detain him or restrict him. If you feel he is being unfairly treated and victimised you could threaten to take a case against the school for bullying and harassment.

No wonder our teachers hate their job.
Of course the child will have to do detention.
Threatening to sue - ah the sign of a sane person

weldoninhio

Wildly Boaring wrote: »

No wonder our teachers hate their job.
Of course the child will have to do detention.
Threatening to sue - ah the sign of a sane person

Thats the world nowadays unfortunately. Act the git, disrupt everyone elses learning and then when there is consequences run crying to mammy. I remember my schooldays, the students who were "picked on" were generally the ones who had no interest in learning.

happyoutish

TheBoyConor wrote: »

If it comes to a head you could write to the principal and let them know that your son will not be attending detention. They have no power whatsoever to detain him or restrict him. If you feel he is being unfairly treated and victimised you could threaten to take a case against the school for bullying and harassment.

As for the points, tell him to cop himself on and behave but to not get too worked up about points. They are only numbers on a sheet at the end of the day. Getting off very lightly - should consider himself lucky that it is 2020 and he's not being flogged asunder by a sadistic Christian Brother with a wire coat hanger like my brother.

Yes this is very true!
I know they have told the principal that the child will not be attending Detention without them being given all the information. The child is a very quiet, mannerly child which is why this all seems to much for them.

They have told the child exactly what you have advised

i think they are going to talk to the Department of Education for advice also.

ChippingSodbury

Wildly Boaring wrote: »

No wonder our teachers hate their job.
Of course the child will have to do detention.
Threatening to sue - ah the sign of a sane person

I think that's a bit harsh to be honest. The school where my kid attends is run really well: it has a young new Principal for 5 or so years. Before that it was a disaster zone. I'm 99% sure that if my kid gets into trouble, it will be for genuine reasons. That's because of the way the school is managed and normal interactions with parents are handled. I would not have been able to say that of the same school if it was 8 or 9 years ago.

There may well be management issues in the OP's school, maybe not. The kid may be a troublemaker, maybe not. I'd be a little concerned for the management to flat-out reject interactions with a parent though. But maybe that's not all (of either side) of the story...

TheBoyConor

If the detention is affecting his mental wellbeing then it would be very poor form to force him to do it. Legally, the school have absolutely zero power nor right to detain him or compel him to do detention. A student can only go to detention if they themselves consent to it. If they were compelled to detention against their wishes by means of coercion, verbal or otherwise, or by being threatened with further sanctions, that amounts to bullying at the least or false imprisonment at the higher end of the scale.
They would be left in an indefensible position if they bullied him into detention knowing that it was affecting his mental state and it subsequently resulted in a development of anxiety issues, a nervous breakdown or potentially an even worse tragedy.

happyoutish

Wildly Boaring wrote: »

No wonder our teachers hate their job.
Of course the child will have to do detention.
Threatening to sue - ah the sign of a sane person

With respect, I have no interest in going into whether or not teachers hate their jobs, just looking at peoples opinion on the point system.

But thanks for your input.

witchgirl26

So we had points as such in my school when I was there and if you got 3, you got a detention. There were some teachers who were a bit free with handing them out but that always came to a head as they always had high rates and a few times it happened where detentions were cancelled because such a large amount of them came from the teacher in question. The principal rightly saw that maybe there was a more a problem with the teacher than all the students they teach.

If your friend's child is the only person affected by this, you do have to ask questions as to if they are really telling the parents everything that is going on. However if there are other children who are being given lots of points by these teachers, maybe get a group of parents together to ask the school some questions in relation to that. Not attacking the school but more trying to get to the bottom as to why students who maybe don't get many points, get a lot from those teachers.

happyoutish

weldoninhio wrote: »

Thats the world nowadays unfortunately. Act the git, disrupt everyone elses learning and then when there is consequences run crying to mammy. I remember my schooldays, the students who were "picked on" were generally the ones who had no interest in learning.

Well i can tell you this is not the case. Does very well in tests, class assessments etc. this child does want to work, and wants to go to college and knows the work that has to be put in to get there.

Thanks for your input

happyoutish

witchgirl26 wrote: »

So we had points as such in my school when I was there and if you got 3, you got a detention. There were some teachers who were a bit free with handing them out but that always came to a head as they always had high rates and a few times it happened where detentions were cancelled because such a large amount of them came from the teacher in question. The principal rightly saw that maybe there was a more a problem with the teacher than all the students they teach.

If your friend's child is the only person affected by this, you do have to ask questions as to if they are really telling the parents everything that is going on. However if there are other children who are being given lots of points by these teachers, maybe get a group of parents together to ask the school some questions in relation to that. Not attacking the school but more trying to get to the bottom as to why students who maybe don't get many points, get a lot from those teachers.

there are a few more in the classes also. And even if the child was not telling them everything, the school is refusing to give them a list of the points

so that in itself is saying that the child is telling the truth is it not?

Thank you for you input

TheBoyConor

That is good, sounds like a good student.

I think the school should be reminded of his clearly very satisfactory academic performance and be warned that any attempt on their part to degrade him to Ordinary Level curriculae in any subjects without a very solid academic basis will be viewed as an unfair retributive measure.

In relation to the refusal of the school to give information on the points tell them this. They have 2 choices, they can disclose the information by agreement, or you can compel them to do so via a GDPR data access request, which will be a lot more difficult for them.

Wildly Boaring

happyoutish wrote: »

With respect, I have no interest in going into whether or not teachers hate their jobs, just looking at peoples opinion on the point system.

But thanks for your input.

Child is in trouble in school, parents should accept the punishment and ensure child stops disrupting class.
You're only looking for one answer here.

spurious

happyoutish wrote: »

there are a few more in the classes also. And even if the child was not telling them everything, the school is refusing to give them a list of the points so that in itself is saying that the child is telling the truth is it not?

Thank you for you input

That's quite a leap, in fairness, m'lud.

ChippingSodbury

spurious wrote: »

That's quite a leap, in fairness, m'lud.

As is this:

Wildly Boaring wrote: »

Child is in trouble in school, parents should accept the punishment and ensure child stops disrupting class.
You're only looking for one answer here.

If a school were unwilling to disclose information on a student or engage with a parent, I'd be pretty peeved. I'd have thought a school would only be delighted to explain in no uncertain terms why a student is being punished and what the consequences are. Why would they not take the opportunity to "take out the middle man" i.e. student and deal directly with a parent??

witchgirl26

TheBoyConor wrote: »

In relation to the refusal of the school to give information on the points tell them this. They have 2 choices, they can disclose the information by agreement, or you can compel them to do so via a GDPR data access request, which will be a lot more difficult for them.

GDPR can't be used for everything. It relates to 2 personally identifying pieces of information. Points and what they relate to wouldn't necessarily fall under this.

happyoutish wrote: »

there are a few more in the classes also. And even if the child was not telling them everything, the school is refusing to give them a list of the points so that in itself is saying that the child is telling the truth is it not?

Thank you for you input

No it doesn't necessarily. Some of the best students in terms of results were some of the biggest disrupters in my year. My school never kept a list of what the points related to exactly. The principal would know how many you had but that was all.

Geuze

TheBoyConor wrote: »

If it comes to a head you could write to the principal and let them know that your son will not be attending detention. They have no power whatsoever to detain him or restrict him. If you feel he is being unfairly treated and victimised you could threaten to take a case against the school for bullying and harassment.

Would it not be better to simply stop the bad behaviour that leads to the points?

ThreeGreens

Geuze wrote: »

Would it not be better to simply stop the bad behaviour that leads to the points?

Normally I'd totally agree with this. If the child is getting into trouble, then they will be punished and the parent should support this.

But if the school won't tell the parent what the child is being punished for, then how can they attempt to address the issue?

I wonder why the school is refusing to say? Does the parents have 'an attitude'?

There is something here that doesn't quite add up. I think part of the story is missing.

Wombatman

TheBoyConor wrote: »

If the detention is affecting his mental wellbeing then it would be very poor form to force him to do it. Legally, the school have absolutely zero power nor right to detain him or compel him to do detention. A student can only go to detention if they themselves consent to it. If they were compelled to detention against their wishes by means of coercion, verbal or otherwise, or by being threatened with further sanctions, that amounts to bullying at the least or false imprisonment at the higher end of the scale.
They would be left in an indefensible position if they bullied him into detention knowing that it was affecting his mental state and it subsequently resulted in a development of anxiety issues, a nervous breakdown or potentially an even worse tragedy.

This is a load of rubbish really. Stop acting the maggot and the points will stop most likely.

Detention is designed to affect ones mental well being BTW.

Most schools already have a code of behaviour that sets out how students will punished for breaching it. It is assumed that parents agree to the punishments set out in the code if they are told about the code when their child starts school. As a result, if the punishment is detention, the parents or student cannot claim that the student has been falsely imprisoned.

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/education/primary_and_post_primary_education/attendance_and_discipline_in_schools/school_discipline.html

Raisins

Geuze wrote: »

Would it not be better to simply stop the bad behaviour that leads to the points?

Imagine getting detention as a teenager, coming home to tell your parents it wasn’t your fault (as every teenager has since time began), and your parents demand a full breakdown of your points and go to the department of education.

Talk about a massive escalation, parents must have no understanding of school.

happyoutish

Wildly Boaring wrote: »

Child is in trouble in school, parents should accept the punishment and ensure child stops disrupting class.
You're only looking for one answer here.

Absolutely not, I'm looking for peoples opinions, advice and any experience they have with a points system. The parents totally understand and have always been of the same opinion, do the crime do the time. They feel that this has been done unfairly and with the school refusing to give the information the parents have asked for they are just looking for other peoples opinions and experiences. I'm well aware that some teachers dislike their jobs, lots of people dislike their jobs. Nobody is here to be after teachers, just looking for different opinions and peoples experience on the points system, have you any?

Thanks for your input

happyoutish

ThreeGreens wrote: »

Normally I'd totally agree with this. If the child is getting into trouble, then they will be punished and the parent should support this.

But if the school won't tell the parent what the child is being punished for, then how can they attempt to address the issue?

I wonder why the school is refusing to say? Does the parents have 'an attitude'?

There is something here that doesn't quite add up. I think part of the story is missing.

Yes, I totally agree with this, the parents have requested in writing a detailed report as it is totally out of character for their child. They have since written to the school requesting a meeting. As i've said before the child is a good student, wants to do well,wants to go to college and the parents go by do the crime do the time.

thanks for your input

Wombatman

happyoutish wrote: »

Hi,

Just wondering does anyone have a son/daughter attend a secondary school were there is a point system used as punishment and if so what are your thoughts on it?

I have a close friend whose child is going through a really rough time at school right now because of these points, two teachers in particular seem to be throwing out points willy nilly and it has really started to affect the young persons confidence and they have become really withdrawn. The school are refusing to give a list of the points to the parents as requested and they have now issued detention for the young person without providing the information requested.

Anyone have any experience or advice on these point systems in school? Thanks.

You seem to know a bit about the situation. What explanation did the child give for getting the points \ detention?

ChippingSodbury

Raisins wrote: »

Imagine getting detention as a teenager, coming home to tell your parents it wasn’t your fault (as every teenager has since time began), and your parents demand a full breakdown of your points and go to the department of education.

Talk about a massive escalation, parents must have no understanding of school.

and your parents demand a full breakdown of your points

Why would this not be available??? It is available in the school my kid attends. It is also a requirement of parents to attend for a meeting if something a bit more serious than detention points are "awarded". I might reiterate that the school my kid attends is a very well-run, non-fee-paying, run of the mill 2nd level school. The school staff engage with the students and vice versa as do the parents with the staff. It's not perfect but certainly not bad.

If a list is not available, surely the school would still want to talk to the parent if the parent wanted an explanation. The kid may be an absolute nightmare in the school so surely it's in the school's interest to engage with the parent, no?

parents must have no understanding of school.

What a ridiculous comment.

happyoutish

Wombatman wrote: »

You seem to know a bit about the situation. What explanation did the child give for getting the points \ detention?

Yes, not all but some, it is my best friends child. So I have been listening to a very frustrated mother and father for some weeks now

one day there was 10 points given for having a pen in their mouth and they were then told that they were defiant. Another day it was because they were getting something from their bag and another day for something dropping off their desk.

TheBoyConor

This is a load of rubbish really. Stop acting the maggot and the points will stop most likely.

Detention is designed to affect ones mental well being BTW.

Quote:
Most schools already have a code of behaviour that sets out how students will punished for breaching it. It is assumed that parents agree to the punishments set out in the code if they are told about the code when their child starts school. As a result, if the punishment is detention, the parents or student cannot claim that the student has been falsely imprisoned.
https://www.citizensinformation.ie/e...iscipline.html

That is all well and good as long as the parents and student consented to it and maintain their consent. However, a student could, depending on circumstance, withdraw that consent and wish to walk out of detention.
if they chose to walk out of detention the school or the staff have absolutely no legal right nor power to restrain, restrict the student from leaving, nor apprehend, or force them to return if they have left. The school policy is an agreement and it only has effect as long as the parties maintain their consent to the agreement. The law of the land would supercede any such agreement anyway.

Realistically, if a student walked out of detention, what could the school staff actually do about it? Lock the doors? physically restrain the student? send someone to apprehend them and return them to the school? Expel them despite the student excelling academically?
Obviously, any of those measures would be totally extreme and over the top.
The school have no legal power to detain anyone nor force anyone to do anything. It is all just subject to school, parent and student maintaining a mutual agreement on the policy.

Real world, a secondary school student could get up and walk out of detention any moment and walk out the front door. And there would be nothing teachers nor principal could do about it only look out the window at him. Quite frankly, what are they going to do about it?

kennethsmyth

Wildly Boaring wrote: »

No wonder our teachers hate their job.
Of course the child will have to do detention.
Threatening to sue - ah the sign of a sane person

No the child does not have to do detention, without clear transparency of the reasons for it. These have been asked for and not given.

I absolutely agree if my child is acting up in school that there will be consequences but I also believe that it has to be justified and shown to be fact not just an unknown number without transparency

ChippingSodbury

TheBoyConor wrote: »

That is all well and good as long as the parents and student consented to it and maintain their consent. However, a student could, depending on circumstance, withdraw that consent and wish to walk out of detention.
if they chose to walk out of detention the school or the staff have absolutely no legal right nor power to restrain, restrict the student from leaving, nor apprehend, or force them to return if they have left. The school policy is an agreement and it only has effect as long as the parties maintain their consent to the agreement. The law of the land would supercede any such agreement anyway.

Realistically, if a student walked out of detention, what could the school staff actually do about it? Lock the doors? physically restrain the student? send someone to apprehend them and return them to the school? Expel them despite the student excelling academically?
Obviously, any of those measures would be totally extreme and over the top.
The school have no legal power to detain anyone nor force anyone to do anything. It is all just subject to school, parent and student maintaining a mutual agreement on the policy.

Real world, a secondary school student could get up and walk out of detention at moment and walk out the front door. And there would be nothing teachers nor principal could do about it only look out the window at him. Quite frankly, what are they going to do about it?

Ah Jaysus! You may be factually correct on actual detention as in holding someone without their consent but I'd guess the school would have a problem (and rightly so) with a student who refuses to obey the school rules. Most parents are looking for a school where all students obey the rules, get a good education and are ready for the real world when they leave. If there's no discipline and mutual respect, there'll be no good outcomes...

Wombatman

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Real world, a secondary school student could get up and walk out of detention at moment and walk out the front door. And there would be nothing teachers nor principal could do about it only look out the window at him. Quite frankly, what are they going to do about it?

Most likely they would be suspended, and correctly so IMHO.

Please don't ask what the school could do legally to stop the child returning to school again.

There is more to being a good student than a good academic record. It would be very wrong to bring a child's academic record into a decision on misbehaviour.

Should bullies be let off because they are good at sums?

Wildly Boaring

[QUOTE=TheBoyConor;112643977} Quite frankly, what are they going to do about it?[/QUOTE]

Escalate
Suspend
Expel