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School using point system for punishment

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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,838 ✭✭✭?Cee?view


    Well I am working on the basis of the information the OP has given, and that is that the student is a good, well mannered student who is excelling academically. We take that at face value. No defence lawyer is ever going to paint their client in a bad light, they will keep reinforcing the positives and turn the good side out.
    As I said before, I would think for the student to be involved in refuting the arguments being made by the school is an absolutely excellent real world lesson in resilience and not taking things lying down just because, you know "teacher says".

    Saying that they should just take their medicine, even when it may be excessive and disproportionate, what does that teach a person? It teaches compliance, that they should just do things ordered of them because "authority". That they should just take things on the chin lying down, even when they don't agree with it and are opposed to it. Is that a good lesson to have in life?

    Critical thinking, challenging others' arguments and creating and delivering well thought out and backed up counter arguments is an absolutely excellent skill, far more important than the aul modh coinniollach, or Pieg Sayers, and what better way to learn it than in this live, real world example. The mammy doesn't have to do it all. They student can also put across their own arguments as part of the discussions. In fact, I would encourage it.
    And besides winning the dispute through reason and wits, from a more cute hurr perspective of looking at it there is also the possibility that asking the school to justify their actions and demonstrate to you that their penalties are proportionate and applied consistently, and generally challenging the school very strongly in a manner to which they not accustomed may frustrate and fatigue their process and burden their time and minds so much to the point that they may decide to just decide to drop it and appease you and write off the detentions and penalties for the sake of what it's worth to them.



    That is a rich statement! The school here is dishing out penalties without any clear information even being given! Points and detention doled out without any transparency, no reasons or explanations given, and a reluctance to give information even when challenged for it. Would you be happy to receive and pay a random fine with no reason given as to why you were fined?

    I could be quite confident, that faced with a solid challenge and be nearly compelled to explain and justify their actions to avoid looking absolutely spineless, the teacher that is handing out points willy nilly will be very slow to ever issue points again if they think that this sort of headache is what results from it.

    What’s a “defence lawyer” and an adversarial approach going to add to this situation that will benefit the parents, the teachers or the child.

    Any half decent lawyer (defence or otherwise), will tell you to pick your arguments and think of the wider picture, not just stir **** for the sake of it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 479 ✭✭rgace


    Yes, not all but some, it is my best friends child. So I have been listening to a very frustrated mother and father for some weeks now :(

    one day there was 10 points given for having a pen in their mouth and they were then told that they were defiant. Another day it was because they were getting something from their bag and another day for something dropping off their desk.

    It is a while since I was a teenager but this sounds like the kind of ridiculous stuff teenagers come out with, I would be very surprised if there was not a lot more to it than the above.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,989 ✭✭✭✭rob316


    I'd tell your friend to teach their child school is absolutely unfair, some teachers aren't fit for purpose, they can take a dislike you. And you know what that's just life, how else will we ever prepare them for life ahead?

    I was a bollox in school and every single hour I spent in detention was warranted. When my mam asked me why I got it I'd say "teacher doesn't like me" or "nothing". See what I'm getting at?


  • Registered Users Posts: 90 ✭✭fed_u


    rgace wrote: »
    It is a while since I was a teenager but this sounds like the kind of ridiculous stuff teenagers come out with, I would be very surprised if there was not a lot more to it than the above.

    These minor matters could be part of a bigger issue like trying to get attention or distracting others.. I had a student loose their pen, get up walk around their chair giggling a few times, get the attention of the rest of the class and then feign surprise when it's under their book. Que hysterics from the rest of the class..
    While it's nothing major it's a disruption and warrants the student being written up!
    Are the points online or taillied by a year head? - I would send the child to dentention and advise them to keep their head down in class etc. Parents can then quietly deal with the school / request points are recorded in journal etc and look for explanations and examples of the child's behaviour


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,994 Mod ✭✭✭✭sullivlo


    fed_u wrote: »
    These minor matters could be part of a bigger issue like trying to get attention or distracting others.. I had a student loose their pen, get up walk around their chair giggling a few times, get the attention of the rest of the class and then feign surprise when it's under their book. Que hysterics from the rest of the class..
    While it's nothing major it's a disruption and warrants the student being written up!
    Are the points online or taillied by a year head? - I would send the child to dentention and advise them to keep their head down in class etc. Parents can then quietly deal with the school / request points are recorded in journal etc and look for explanations and examples of the child's behaviour
    I had a student bump into every desk on her way back from the bin today in an attempt to distract her classmates. They push the boundaries daily, and seemingly innocuous things could be part of a pattern in behaviour.

    As for the issues mentioned in the OP:

    Pen in mouth? Could be in a Science lab where chemicals are frequently used, meaning it is a safety risk. It could be a common event and the teacher gave behaviour points to discourage student from doing it again.

    Getting something from a bag? Could be a copy, 20 minutes after class began and 15 minutes after you told them to write something in to said copy/read something on a particular page. Shows student could be inattentive. There’s nothing worse than saying “page 24, question 6” three times, writing it on the board and then a few minutes into the task having a hand go up saying “what page are we on?”

    Dropping something from a desk? During a quiet time in class or a time where attention is needed and students are not writing or needing to do anything beyond read what is in front of them, someone knocking a maths set onto the floor and the ensuing distractions, could be a thing.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,548 ✭✭✭Ave Sodalis


    Effects wrote:
    So why not just bring in the torn homework as proof. Even if it was true, you should have known the teacher wouldn't have believed it.


    Because it was shredded and she would likely have given me detention for being cheeky when I handed her pieces of paper. No matter what I told her, she wouldn't have believed it so I was honest and told the truth.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,555 ✭✭✭Squeeonline


    You had better hope those points don't make it on to their !!!permanent record!!!. They'll never get a good job otherwise.

    /s


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,311 ✭✭✭✭weldoninhio


    Well i can tell you this is not the case. Does very well in tests, class assessments etc. this child does want to work, and wants to go to college and knows the work that has to be put in to get there.



    Thanks for your input :)

    Ah you never mentioned you attended his classes.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,311 ✭✭✭✭weldoninhio


    Raisins wrote: »
    Imagine getting detention as a teenager, coming home to tell your parents it wasn’t your fault (as every teenager has since time began), and your parents demand a full breakdown of your points and go to the department of education.

    Talk about a massive escalation, parents must have no understanding of school.

    Sounds very much like little Timothy can do no wrong.


  • Registered Users Posts: 227 ✭✭happyoutish


    Ah you never mentioned you attended his classes.

    Really? 🙄 from the past 3 years record has been very good along with class tests etc.. never any problems.

    Reading through this and while I appreciate everyone's opinion I didnt come on here to start anything I was simply looking for opinions to help some friends.. and it seems to have taken a different course..

    Theses parents are not looking for a way out of detention .. you can understand that if your child has never been any trouble then all of a sudden has detention with little or no information given as to why.. you would be frustrated too.. if the child is being so disruptive in class why weren't they informed before hand so they could have addressed it... they have requested the information from the school and haven't received it because they will not give it. They are now awaiting to hear back from them after they have requested a meeting.

    I was simply looking for opinions on what people think of the use of the points system...and any experience they may have had.. there doesnt seem to be guidelines for the teachers and they are quiet happy to throw points out as they please...

    And this thread is in Galway city because it's a city school 🙂

    I appreciate everyone's input...

    Thank you 😊


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,311 ✭✭✭✭weldoninhio


    Really? 🙄 from the past 3 years record has been very good along with class tests etc.. never any problems.

    Reading through this and while I appreciate everyone's opinion I didnt come on here to start anything I was simply looking for opinions to help some friends.. and it seems to have taken a different course..

    Theses parents are not looking for a way out of detention .. you can understand that if your child has never been any trouble then all of a sudden has detention with little or no information given as to why.. you would be frustrated too.. if the child is being so disruptive in class why weren't they informed before hand so they could have addressed it... they have requested the information from the school and haven't received it because they will not give it. They are now awaiting to hear back from them after they have requested a meeting.

    I was simply looking for opinions on what people think of the use of the points system...and any experience they may have had.. there doesnt seem to be guidelines for the teachers and they are quiet happy to throw points out as they please...

    And this thread is in Galway city because it's a city school 🙂

    I appreciate everyone's input...

    Thank you 😊

    You were looking for opinions that the kid was an angel and that the school are at fault. You’ve railed against anyone that didn’t toe that line.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,543 ✭✭✭✭cj maxx


    I would have been close to the top of the chart if I had a points system at school. I actually would have aimed at that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,114 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    I'd have no issue with the points system or the fact that it leads to detention, but I'd have a problem if the points are not being shared/communicated with the pupil or parents.
    How are you supposed to do anything about it if they are not sharing the information?
    Its like prison, is the purpose punishment or rehab?


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,636 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    Really? �� from the past 3 years record has been very good along with class tests etc.. never any problems.

    Reading through this and while I appreciate everyone's opinion I didnt come on here to start anything I was simply looking for opinions to help some friends.. and it seems to have taken a different course..

    Theses parents are not looking for a way out of detention .. you can understand that if your child has never been any trouble then all of a sudden has detention with little or no information given as to why.. you would be frustrated too.. if the child is being so disruptive in class why weren't they informed before hand so they could have addressed it... they have requested the information from the school and haven't received it because they will not give it. They are now awaiting to hear back from them after they have requested a meeting.

    I was simply looking for opinions on what people think of the use of the points system...and any experience they may have had.. there doesnt seem to be guidelines for the teachers and they are quiet happy to throw points out as they please...

    And this thread is in Galway city because it's a city school ��

    I appreciate everyone's input...

    Thank you ��
    Boards isn't the place to ask in fairness, it's always automatically blame the young people/ more to the story bla bla bla


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,345 ✭✭✭ChippingSodbury


    You were looking for opinions that the kid was an angel and that the school are at fault. You’ve railed against anyone that didn’t toe that line.

    The OP didn't ask for opinions regarding the kid's behaviour, they asked for opinions regarding or experience of a points system. They also asked should evidence of how the kid received the points be available to a parent if it's sought.

    You haven't offered opinions on any of the above.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,590 ✭✭✭SteM


    Really? �� from the past 3 years record has been very good along with class tests etc.. never any problems.

    Reading through this and while I appreciate everyone's opinion I didnt come on here to start anything I was simply looking for opinions to help some friends.. and it seems to have taken a different course..

    Theses parents are not looking for a way out of detention .. you can understand that if your child has never been any trouble then all of a sudden has detention with little or no information given as to why.. you would be frustrated too.. if the child is being so disruptive in class why weren't they informed before hand so they could have addressed it... they have requested the information from the school and haven't received it because they will not give it. They are now awaiting to hear back from them after they have requested a meeting.

    I was simply looking for opinions on what people think of the use of the points system...and any experience they may have had.. there doesnt seem to be guidelines for the teachers and they are quiet happy to throw points out as they please...

    And this thread is in Galway city because it's a city school ��

    I appreciate everyone's input...

    Thank you ��

    What age is the lad? Even when I was in school I saw good students go change when they reached a certain point in their life. He could be easily playing up in class to impress people, just because he was good in the past doesn’t mean that he's not bowing to peer pressure now.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,331 ✭✭✭Keyzer


    Hi,

    Just wondering does anyone have a son/daughter attend a secondary school were there is a point system used as punishment and if so what are your thoughts on it?

    I have a close friend whose child is going through a really rough time at school right now because of these points, two teachers in particular seem to be throwing out points willy nilly and it has really started to affect the young persons confidence and they have become really withdrawn. The school are refusing to give a list of the points to the parents as requested and they have now issued detention for the young person without providing the information requested.

    Anyone have any experience or advice on these point systems in school? Thanks.

    My advice is to tell your friend to tell their child to behave them self.

    We used to get the heads boxed off us in school, for nothing. Some teachers were sound, some complete knobs. You knew where you stood with them and which ones you could push a bit.

    I'm not saying we should revert to corporal punishment but kids need to understand that life aint a box of chocolates - they need to change their behavior if its causing problems, build up resilience and think for themselves instead of expecting mammy/daddy swooping in and saving them.


  • Registered Users Posts: 69 ✭✭mc25


    My school introduced a points system after I left (so I only heard about it from younger siblings) but it always seemed unfair to me that you could only be punished for bad behaviour and there was no counter balancing to reward for good.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,324 ✭✭✭JustAThought


    if the child is getting a lot of points perhaps their parent should do a bit of that - parenting. Discuss what lead up to them getting the point, what they were doing, how this compared to what others in the class were doing who did not get points, how they can adjust their behaviour or attitude in class to ensure they comply with the standard behaviour and do not acquire more points.

    If teachers are intolerant of bad behaviour it is usually indicitive of bad behaviour.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,311 ✭✭✭✭weldoninhio


    mc25 wrote: »
    My school introduced a points system after I left (so I only heard about it from younger siblings) but it always seemed unfair to me that you could only be punished for bad behaviour and there was no counter balancing to reward for good.

    Good behaviour should be a given.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 227 ✭✭happyoutish


    You were looking for opinions that the kid was an angel and that the school are at fault. You’ve railed against anyone that didn’t toe that line.


    I most certainly have not! Don't assume I'm this naive person who thinks the child is an angel, everyone has their flaws and most certainly not everyone is perfect. Some people on here have jumped to the conclusion that this child is misbehaving...I'm going on what i know of the child, 3rd year student, has never failed a test, has always had good report cards and good behavior until allegedly now. The parents are looking for answers, they can only go by what the child has told them and the school are not being responsive at all in giving them an explanation, its totally out of character for this child. as i said in a previous post they parent on "do the crime do the time" so they are not taking this lightly. and again, i was only looking for peoples opinion/experience if any on the point system. I wasn't asking people to be judge and jury and jumping to the conclusion that just because they got detention they HAD to have been disruptive etc. in class. lots of people jumping the gun here and assuming that!

    But yeah, thanks for your input! :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,543 ✭✭✭✭cj maxx


    Nosnon wrote: »
    Mod-Absolutely no idea why this was dumped in AH. Its either a Galway or education issue. Back to whence you came from.

    And I was just going to reply to the post about the kid getting detention but getting good grades. I was a fcucking Messer at school. A fair few detentions, principals office a few times every week. I scored 10/* in mocks as I didn't give a hoot.
    But come the real exams I'd out do many studious kids. I wasn't bad, I was good craic though I deserved every punishment


  • Registered Users Posts: 522 ✭✭✭Raisins


    I most certainly have not! Don't assume I'm this naive person who thinks the child is an angel, everyone has their flaws and most certainly not everyone is perfect. Some people on here have jumped to the conclusion that this child is misbehaving...I'm going on what i know of the child, 3rd year student, has never failed a test, has always had good report cards and good behavior until allegedly now. The parents are looking for answers, they can only go by what the child has told them and the school are not being responsive at all in giving them an explanation, its totally out of character for this child. as i said in a previous post they parent on "do the crime do the time" so they are not taking this lightly. and again, i was only looking for peoples opinion/experience if any on the point system. I wasn't asking people to be judge and jury and jumping to the conclusion that just because they got detention they HAD to have been disruptive etc. in class. lots of people jumping the gun here and assuming that!

    But yeah, thanks for your input! :)

    What was the students explanation? You haven’t answered that...you know their report cards were good etc but you don’t what incident led to the points?

    I’ve heard teachers make the universal home truth that you often can’t figure out a student until you meet the parents, then you go “right this makes sense”. They’d literally sigh and roll eyes in a meeting the same way their child does at school.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,548 ✭✭✭Ave Sodalis


    if the child is getting a lot of points perhaps their parent should do a bit of that - parenting. Discuss what lead up to them getting the point, what they were doing, how this compared to what others in the class were doing who did not get points, how they can adjust their behaviour or attitude in class to ensure they comply with the standard behaviour and do not acquire more points.


    By the sounds of it, that's what the parents are attempting to do via the teachers, but they are not engaging.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,324 ✭✭✭JustAThought


    By the sounds of it, that's what the parents are attempting to do via the teachers, but they are not engaging.[/quote

    As a parent you parent your child -stop blaming everyone and asking your ‘friend’s why your child is being punished for their bad behaviour -the answer is with the childs who sounds like they are being enabled and facilitated at every turn in their disruptive behaviour by their patents and their parents ‘friend’.

    they should create sin bin for these kids outside the classroom and put them in it and require their parents to livestream them from their work and have to supervise them.Why should behaving children have their education disrupted by interruption and antics by spoilt badly behaved children and their parents who refuse to man up to their responsibilities and parent. Been going on for decades.


  • Registered Users Posts: 904 ✭✭✭pure.conya


    GDPR can't be used for everything. It relates to 2 personally identifying pieces of information. Points and what they relate to wouldn't necessarily fall under this.

    An FOI request might get all the info the school has on the kid


  • Registered Users Posts: 904 ✭✭✭pure.conya


    Wombatman wrote: »
    This is a load of rubbish really. Stop acting the maggot and the points will stop most likely.

    Detention is designed to affect ones mental well being BTW.



    https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/education/primary_and_post_primary_education/attendance_and_discipline_in_schools/school_discipline.html

    wow, please tell me you don't work at a school or have much to do with kids


  • Registered Users Posts: 904 ✭✭✭pure.conya


    Raisins wrote: »
    Imagine getting detention as a teenager, coming home to tell your parents it wasn’t your fault (as every teenager has since time began), and your parents demand a full breakdown of your points and go to the department of education.

    Talk about a massive escalation, parents must have no understanding of school.

    how did you get that from the OP, the kid maintains a certain teacher or group are firing the points out willy nilly. even if they weren't, if i wanted a list of the points accrued by my daughter and held by the school, but they wouldn't furnish them to me her legal guardian then I'd be fuming


  • Registered Users Posts: 904 ✭✭✭pure.conya


    ?Cee?view wrote: »
    What chance has any child got in the real world if they learn from their parents that this is considered by them to be an appropriate reaction?

    so parents should be teaching their kids that if they're being victimised by a teacher or teachers, they should just accept their fate and be subservient to their masters, kinda like it was decades ago in Ireland, just look how that worked out


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  • Registered Users Posts: 904 ✭✭✭pure.conya


    Wombatman wrote: »
    What have we come to, that we have gone from a few disciplinary points and one detention, to lawsuits and court action in a couple of posts.

    Common sense would suggest the parents call in to the school and have a chat.

    they did and the principal told the parents that they will not hand over the list of points accrued


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