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School using point system for punishment

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,180 ✭✭✭kennethsmyth


    Escalate
    Suspend
    Expel


    Could be considered malicious victimisation
    Department of eductation
    Court action

    Only if the school is unwilling to be transparent and wishes to continue down that path by escalating.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,180 ✭✭✭kennethsmyth


    Ah Jaysus! You may be factually correct on actual detention as in holding someone without their consent but I'd guess the school would have a problem (and rightly so) with a student who refuses to obey the school rules. Most parents are looking for a school where all students obey the rules, get a good education and are ready for the real world when they leave. If there's no discipline and mutual respect, there'll be no good outcomes...


    You mentioned mutual respect - absolutely and that goes to the school showing why the child has received points not just a number.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,632 ✭✭✭Wildly Boaring


    Could be considered malicious victimisation
    Department of eductation
    Court action

    Only if the school is unwilling to be transparent and wishes to continue down that path by escalating.

    Look i honestly have no idea.
    I'm not in that line of work or any board of management.

    The question was basically if he just walks out of detention what they gonna do about it.

    I presume they escalate according to whatever policy the school has in place.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,180 ✭✭✭kennethsmyth


    Odds are the school has not kept reasons for the points. If they were clever they would agree to a meeting and state that the childs behaviour needs to improve with the child present and that its water under the bridge so long as all agree to move forward. In other words make an omelette out of the broken egg.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,842 ✭✭✭?Cee?view


    That is all well and good as long as the parents and student consented to it and maintain their consent. However, a student could, depending on circumstance, withdraw that consent and wish to walk out of detention.
    if they chose to walk out of detention the school or the staff have absolutely no legal right nor power to restrain, restrict the student from leaving, nor apprehend, or force them to return if they have left. The school policy is an agreement and it only has effect as long as the parties maintain their consent to the agreement. The law of the land would supercede any such agreement anyway.

    Realistically, if a student walked out of detention, what could the school staff actually do about it? Lock the doors? physically restrain the student? send someone to apprehend them and return them to the school? Expel them despite the student excelling academically?
    Obviously, any of those measures would be totally extreme and over the top.
    The school have no legal power to detain anyone nor force anyone to do anything. It is all just subject to school, parent and student maintaining a mutual agreement on the policy.

    Real world, a secondary school student could get up and walk out of detention any moment and walk out the front door. And there would be nothing teachers nor principal could do about it only look out the window at him. Quite frankly, what are they going to do about it?

    What chance has any child got in the real world if they learn from their parents that this is considered by them to be an appropriate reaction?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,337 ✭✭✭Wombatman


    What have we come to, that we have gone from a few disciplinary points and one detention, to lawsuits and court action in a couple of posts.

    Common sense would suggest the parents call in to the school and have a chat.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭TheBoyConor


    Escalate
    Suspend
    Expel

    You have mentioned three words there. Escalate, Suspend, Expel.

    As a student or parent I would respond with one word.......Appeal !


    Suspension would be a disproportionate penalty to a refusal to attend detention, especially if the student and their parents felt that the detention was negatively affecting their state of mind and mental well being. It would be indefensible in my opinion.

    Expulsion would be wildly disproportionate. Do you have any idea how difficult it is to expel a student, even when there are extreme levels of verbal abuse and physical violence. It is an extremely difficult and arduous process to have a student expelled. When a student is polite, well mannered and excelling academically, but just refusing to be detained it would be indefensible and nigh on impossible to justify expulsion.
    Barring some extreme circumstances that make impossible or unsafe to allow the student to remain or if it is severely and tangibly affecting other student's learning, the obligation of a school to provide education to the student would trump any desire the school would have to expel or suspend the student. A student that is otherwise well mannered and academically satisfactory declining to be detained would not, in my view, make it impossible or unsafe to teach them, nor materially affect other students' learning in a tangible, negative way.
    I wouldn't rate my chances of securing an expulsion as a principal in this a case like this.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,842 ✭✭✭?Cee?view


    You have mentioned three words there. Escalate, Suspend, Expel.

    As a student or parent I would respond with one word.......Appeal !


    Suspension would be a disproportionate penalty to a refusal to attend detention, especially if the student and their parents felt that the detention was negatively affecting their state of mind and mental well being. It would be indefensible in my opinion.

    Expulsion would be wildly disproportionate. Do you have any idea how difficult it is to expel a student, even when there are extreme levels of verbal abuse and physical violence. It is an extremely difficult and arduous process to have a student expelled. When a student is polite, well mannered and excelling academically, but just refusing to be detained it would be indefensible and nigh on impossible to justify expulsion.
    Barring some extreme circumstances that make impossible or unsafe to allow the student to remain or if it is severely and tangibly affecting other student's learning, the obligation of a school to provide education to the student would trump any desire the school would have to expel or suspend the student. A student that is otherwise well mannered and academically satisfactory declining to be detained would not, in my view, make it impossible or unsafe to teach them, nor materially affect other students' learning in a tangible, negative way.
    I wouldn't rate my chances of securing an expulsion as a principal in this a case like this.

    This child will excel in difficult work place situations when they can rely on their parents to deal with their manager...:rolleyes:


  • Registered Users Posts: 227 ✭✭happyoutish


    Wombatman wrote: »
    What have we come to, that we have gone from a few disciplinary points and one detention, to lawsuits and court action in a couple of posts.

    Common sense would suggest the parents call in to the school and have a chat.


    Yes agree :) I was only looking for opinions, experience advice.. what have i started! :eek:

    I can safely say there will be no court or anything like that. The parents are waiting to hear back from the school about a meeting. They are frustrated how the whole thing has played out and the how the school are refusing to give the reasoning for the points, which i think is a fair enough request.



    Speaking of court :rolleyes:you are not going to be sent to jail without the judge hearing your crimes same applies here I would have thought?!

    I was just looking to see if anyone else had a similar experience or think that the point system is good bad or indifferent..


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,632 ✭✭✭Wildly Boaring


    You have mentioned three words there. Escalate, Suspend, Expel.

    As a student or parent I would respond with one word.......Appeal !


    Suspension would be a disproportionate penalty to a refusal to attend detention, especially if the student and their parents felt that the detention was negatively affecting their state of mind and mental well being. It would be indefensible in my opinion.

    Expulsion would be wildly disproportionate. Do you have any idea how difficult it is to expel a student, even when there are extreme levels of verbal abuse and physical violence. It is an extremely difficult and arduous process to have a student expelled. When a student is polite, well mannered and excelling academically, but just refusing to be detained it would be indefensible and nigh on impossible to justify expulsion.
    Barring some extreme circumstances that make impossible or unsafe to allow the student to remain or if it is severely and tangibly affecting other student's learning, the obligation of a school to provide education to the student would trump any desire the school would have to expel or suspend the student. A student that is otherwise well mannered and academically satisfactory declining to be detained would not, in my view, make it impossible or unsafe to teach them, nor materially affect other students' learning in a tangible, negative way.
    I wouldn't rate my chances of securing an expulsion as a principal in this a case like this.

    Child walks clean out of detention.
    School says Jeez that's grand why didn't any of them do that before.

    Escalate.....
    No idea what is first on their procedure for escalation, but it wont be a pat on the back.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 876 ✭✭✭ITman88


    ?Cee?view wrote: »
    This child will excel in difficult work place situations when they can rely on their parents to deal with their manager...:rolleyes:

    Was just about to post something very similar, absolutely no coping skills whatsoever will be indoctrinated into those sheltered kids.
    I was lucky my mam was a though old nut growing up, If a teacher gave me detention, a detention was the least of my worries when I got home


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,180 ✭✭✭kennethsmyth


    Wombatman wrote: »
    What have we come to, that we have gone from a few disciplinary points and one detention, to lawsuits and court action in a couple of posts.

    Common sense would suggest the parents call in to the school and have a chat.

    According to OP they have tried to have a meeting and requested the reasons for the points but its not happened.

    I have no problem with punishment fitting the crime but there is no transparency here at present.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,180 ✭✭✭kennethsmyth


    Child walks clean out of detention.
    School says Jeez that's grand why didn't any of them do that before.

    Escalate.....
    No idea what is first on their procedure for escalation, but it wont be a pat on the back.

    If the child has been told / given instructions by the parent to come straight home then the school needs to talk with parents first.

    The problem here is the school refusing to be transparent in their dealings with the child. If you were given a reprimand in your workplace you would be told the reasons why.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭TheBoyConor


    ?Cee?view wrote: »
    This child will excel in difficult work place situations when they can rely on their parents to deal with their manager...:rolleyes:
    Was just about to post something very similar, absolutely no coping skills whatsoever will be indoctrinated into those sheltered kids.

    On the contrary, you know what? It will stand to them if they are ever in situations where one party, be it an employer or a competing opponent in some shere, is trying to get one over on them if they can get away with it. The will see that a well thought out rebuttal, backed up by a reasonable knowledge of rights and law, can challenge the opponent successfully and get a positive outcome.

    Might be as good a days learning as they will ever have school if they were at that meeting and this was threshed out across the principal's desk.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,180 ✭✭✭kennethsmyth


    On the contrary, you know what? It will stand to them if they are ever in situations where one party, be it an employer or a competing opponent in some shere, is trying to get one over on them if they can get away with it. The will see that a well thought out rebuttal, backed up by a reasonable knowledge of rights and law, can challenge the opponent successfully and get a positive outcome.

    Might be as good a days learning as they will ever have school if they were at that meeting and this was threshed out across the principal's desk.

    Agreed, teacher, principal, parents and child all at a meeting out in the open and go through all the issues like grown ups.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭TheBoyConor


    Could be considered malicious victimisation
    Department of eductation
    Court action

    Only if the school is unwilling to be transparent and wishes to continue down that path by escalating.

    Absolutely, for things as OP says, getting 10 points for the likes of having a pen end in their mouth, getting something from their bag, dropping something. I, and any reasonable person, would see this as a gross exaggeration and an abuse of the points system.
    Since it is taking place on a sustained and repeated basis, it a very convincing argument could be made that it is malicious, victimizing and bullying behaviour on the part of an experienced professional teacher who really ought to know better and exercise greater self control than their students, all being effectively endorsed by the principal by their willingness to knowingly allowing it to continue despite being made plainly aware that it is having a negative impact on the student's state of mind and mental well being.

    If i were a principal faced with these arguments across my desk, I would find it extremely challenging to mount a any sort of reasonably credible rebuttal.


  • Registered Users Posts: 522 ✭✭✭Raisins


    Why would this not be available??? It is available in the school my kid attends. It is also a requirement of parents to attend for a meeting if something a bit more serious than detention points are "awarded". I might reiterate that the school my kid attends is a very well-run, non-fee-paying, run of the mill 2nd level school. The school staff engage with the students and vice versa as do the parents with the staff. It's not perfect but certainly not bad.

    If a list is not available, surely the school would still want to talk to the parent if the parent wanted an explanation. The kid may be an absolute nightmare in the school so surely it's in the school's interest to engage with the parent, no?


    What a ridiculous comment.

    Why are you so shocked that the breakdown mightn’t be available? This is a school setting : there’s literally hundreds of students in most secondary schools with multiple incidents happening every class that might or might not necessitate a point depending on the context. If speaking while a teacher is speaking or distracting the class gets a point (I don’t know if it would), does the teacher then: stop teaching, correct behaviour, note the point and then separately add it to a master record with an explanation so that’s a available in the even a parent wants to challenge? If a teacher has to hand out points to 3/4/5 students what happens to the lesson if that’s the process on each occasion. Correcting a student alone kills momentum before you even get into that bureaucracy.

    Points system seems sensible at a departmental conference but challenging parents will bring a end to it fairly quickly. Just let the teacher do his / her job - it’s not a criminal summons - unless there’s multiple detentions or incidents I can’t see how a parent can consider those demands reasonable. Btw I’m not a teacher.


  • Registered Users Posts: 876 ✭✭✭ITman88


    On the contrary, you know what? It will stand to them if they are ever in situations where one party, be it an employer or a competing opponent in some shere, is trying to get one over on them if they can get away with it. The will see that a well thought out rebuttal, backed up by a reasonable knowledge of rights and law, can challenge the opponent successfully and get a positive outcome.

    Might be as good a days learning as they will ever have school if they were at that meeting and this was threshed out across the principal's desk.
    But in this case all the child is doing is saying it wasn’t me, and getting mammy to stand up for him. The child is not standing up for himself, it’s just saying I didn’t do anything mammy, but I see it myself with my own nephew. Not picked for the football team, in goes his mother to the school to discuss with coach. Nothing about the extra practice he could do with


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,761 ✭✭✭Effects


    Absolutely not, I'm looking for peoples opinions, advice and any experience they have with a points system.

    We had a points system when I was in school in the 90s.
    The more points you got, the more worried you were that you'd get detention, so you tried harder to not get points.

    I don't think my parents were ever informed what the points I got were for.

    I once got two points, undeservedly, that pushed me over the limit and earned me a detention. I did earn the other points though. And I was upset about it, as I'd have to explain detention to my parents.

    Detention is part of school. Earning it with points is fine, and it's understandable that some teachers hand out points more than others.

    It's a good lesson for life really.

    As for the poster who said they have no power to make you go to detention.
    That's a pretty good lesson to learn for later in life. If you don't like the rules in your workplace, you can just walk out the door. Good luck progressing in your job and career with that attitude.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,994 Mod ✭✭✭✭sullivlo


    I had an incident with a student recently. Our discipline system is similar to the one mentioned here.

    I disciplined a student. The parent requested a call, so I rang. A tirade of abuse followed. “Why are you picking on my child” etc. I explained why I disciplined the child (no homework attempted, no class work taken down from the board, no exam papers with additional homework in them brought to class, didn’t stay back when requested). The parent said that the child only mentioned not having the homework done, none of the rest of it. Once explained, the parent accepted the discipline action and spoke to the child.

    Detentions generally are not given for something innocent or a first offence. Sounds like there could be more sides to the story.

    As for the idea of refusing to sit detention..... Ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous. If students don’t learn discipline now, what will they do when they get to the real world?! They can’t get mammy to fight their battles if they make it to third level, and they can’t use mammy to get them out of trouble in work. Resilience is seriously lacking in current generation, and they don’t like having to deal with the consequences of their actions.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,337 ✭✭✭Wombatman


    Absolutely, for things as OP says, getting 10 points for the likes of having a pen end in their mouth, getting something from their bag, dropping something. I, and any reasonable person, would see this as a gross exaggeration and an abuse of the points system.
    Since it is taking place on a sustained and repeated basis, it a very convincing argument could be made that it is malicious, victimizing and bullying behaviour on the part of an experienced professional teacher who really ought to know better and exercise greater self control than their students, all being effectively endorsed by the principal by their willingness to knowingly allowing it to continue despite being made plainly aware that it is having a negative impact on the student's state of mind and mental well being.

    If i were a principal faced with these arguments across my desk, I would find it extremely challenging to mount a any sort of reasonably credible rebuttal.

    You are really jumping to conclusions and then blowing those conclusions right out of proportion.

    Might it be that little Jonny\Joanie is taking the piss and is fully deserving censure?

    The school should be providing the parents with details on what led to the detention for sure. They have rightly requested a meeting. The rest of your post is just hysterical speculation.

    School can be tough on kids sometimes. Hopefully this child can get back into the swing of things without any lasting damage. Escalating things as you do, with very little information, doesn't help anyone get to this point.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,548 ✭✭✭Ave Sodalis


    Raisins wrote:
    Points system seems sensible at a departmental conference but challenging parents will bring a end to it fairly quickly. Just let the teacher do his / her job - it’s not a criminal summons - unless there’s multiple detentions or incidents I can’t see how a parent can consider those demands reasonable. Btw I’m not a teacher.


    To be entirely fair, in secondary school, I was a good student. I got continuous As and Bs. I was quiet as I have/had bad social anxiety and never spoke out of turn. I had to grow up pretty fast so I skipped what would normally come with teenage years. No teacher ever had a problem with me (in fact, my English teacher pushed really hard to get me into an advanced creative writing course for adults, but they refused as I was 13 at the time), except one. For some reason, she took a notion against me. She sat me up the front of the class, she was always nitpicking about stuff. One day I didn't have my homework. Believe or not, the dog actually tore it up as it was sitting on the sofa at home and he started zooming around the place. My mother wasn't home to get a note from, so I went in empty handed and I didn't want to annoy the babysitter. Straight away, I got detention. My mother rang to find out what the problem actually is, the teacher denied there even being a problem. The detention got reversed and the teacher was nice as pie to me after that.
    It was a really bizarre experience. I believe that if my mother had not rang, the teacher would have continued to pick on me. If I had retaliated, it would have justified the teacher's actions. So whilst many student do deserve to get detention, it wouldn't surprise me to hear a teacher was abusing the points system too.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,820 ✭✭✭CrabRevolution


    On the contrary, you know what? It will stand to them if they are ever in situations where one party, be it an employer or a competing opponent in some shere, is trying to get one over on them if they can get away with it. The will see that a well thought out rebuttal, backed up by a reasonable knowledge of rights and law, can challenge the opponent successfully and get a positive outcome.

    Might be as good a days learning as they will ever have school if they were at that meeting and this was threshed out across the principal's desk.

    It's not really teaching anything other than: "Don't be responsible or accountable for your own actions, and if you're ever called out on them, just get your mam to argue"


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,761 ✭✭✭Effects


    Believe or not, the dog actually tore it up as it was sitting on the sofa at home and he started zooming around the place.

    So why not just bring in the torn homework as proof. Even if it was true, you should have known the teacher wouldn't have believed it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭TheBoyConor


    It's not really teaching anything other than: "Don't be responsible or accountable for your own actions, and if you're ever called out on them, just get your mam to argue
    As for the idea of refusing to sit detention..... Ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous. If students don’t learn discipline now, what will they do when they get to the real world?! They can’t get mammy to fight their battles if they make it to third level, and they can’t use mammy to get them out of trouble in work. Resilience is seriously lacking in current generation, and they don’t like having to deal with the consequences of their actions.

    Well I am working on the basis of the information the OP has given, and that is that the student is a good, well mannered student who is excelling academically. We take that at face value. No defence lawyer is ever going to paint their client in a bad light, they will keep reinforcing the positives and turn the good side out.
    As I said before, I would think for the student to be involved in refuting the arguments being made by the school is an absolutely excellent real world lesson in resilience and not taking things lying down just because, you know "teacher says".

    Saying that they should just take their medicine, even when it may be excessive and disproportionate, what does that teach a person? It teaches compliance, that they should just do things ordered of them because "authority". That they should just take things on the chin lying down, even when they don't agree with it and are opposed to it. Is that a good lesson to have in life?

    Critical thinking, challenging others' arguments and creating and delivering well thought out and backed up counter arguments is an absolutely excellent skill, far more important than the aul modh coinniollach, or Pieg Sayers, and what better way to learn it than in this live, real world example. The mammy doesn't have to do it all. They student can also put across their own arguments as part of the discussions. In fact, I would encourage it.
    And besides winning the dispute through reason and wits, from a more cute hurr perspective of looking at it there is also the possibility that asking the school to justify their actions and demonstrate to you that their penalties are proportionate and applied consistently, and generally challenging the school very strongly in a manner to which they not accustomed may frustrate and fatigue their process and burden their time and minds so much to the point that they may decide to just decide to drop it and appease you and write off the detentions and penalties for the sake of what it's worth to them.

    Hopefully this child can get back into the swing of things without any lasting damage. Escalating things as you do, with very little information, doesn't help anyone get to this point.
    That is a rich statement! The school here is dishing out penalties without any clear information even being given! Points and detention doled out without any transparency, no reasons or explanations given, and a reluctance to give information even when challenged for it. Would you be happy to receive and pay a random fine with no reason given as to why you were fined?

    I could be quite confident, that faced with a solid challenge and be nearly compelled to explain and justify their actions to avoid looking absolutely spineless, the teacher that is handing out points willy nilly will be very slow to ever issue points again if they think that this sort of headache is what results from it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,345 ✭✭✭ChippingSodbury


    Raisins wrote: »
    Why are you so shocked that the breakdown mightn’t be available? This is a school setting : there’s literally hundreds of students in most secondary schools with multiple incidents happening every class that might or might not necessitate a point depending on the context. If speaking while a teacher is speaking or distracting the class gets a point (I don’t know if it would), does the teacher then: stop teaching, correct behaviour, note the point and then separately add it to a master record with an explanation so that’s a available in the even a parent wants to challenge? If a teacher has to hand out points to 3/4/5 students what happens to the lesson if that’s the process on each occasion. Correcting a student alone kills momentum before you even get into that bureaucracy.

    Points system seems sensible at a departmental conference but challenging parents will bring a end to it fairly quickly. Just let the teacher do his / her job - it’s not a criminal summons - unless there’s multiple detentions or incidents I can’t see how a parent can consider those demands reasonable. Btw I’m not a teacher.

    As far as I know, it works fairly well in my kid's school and there are close to 1,000 students (I'm only going on what my kid tells me and what I hear from other parents). If there's an issue, the homework journal is requested and it's left on the teacher's desk until the end of class when the "bureaucracy" is handled which takes approx. 2 minutes to note in the homework journal and the demerits system. It doesn't stop the flow of the class no more than the bad behaviour.

    Kids, like ourselves, are human beings and more often than not, if they're treated as young adults, they'll respond as young adults. An objective list of points/ issues is fairly black and white and difficult for a student to argue with. As stated above by Sullivio, a talk with the parent is the way to defuse any situation: a list can only help back up a teacher's concerns in a discussion such as that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭gordongekko


    Agreed, teacher, principal, parents and child all at a meeting out in the open and go through all the issues like grown ups.

    :D:D


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    That is all well and good as long as the parents and student consented to it and maintain their consent. However, a student could, depending on circumstance, withdraw that consent and wish to walk out of detention.
    if they chose to walk out of detention the school or the staff have absolutely no legal right nor power to restrain, restrict the student from leaving, nor apprehend, or force them to return if they have left. The school policy is an agreement and it only has effect as long as the parties maintain their consent to the agreement. The law of the land would supercede any such agreement anyway.

    Realistically, if a student walked out of detention, what could the school staff actually do about it? Lock the doors? physically restrain the student? send someone to apprehend them and return them to the school? Expel them despite the student excelling academically?
    Obviously, any of those measures would be totally extreme and over the top.
    The school have no legal power to detain anyone nor force anyone to do anything. It is all just subject to school, parent and student maintaining a mutual agreement on the policy.

    Real world, a secondary school student could get up and walk out of detention any moment and walk out the front door. And there would be nothing teachers nor principal could do about it only look out the window at him. Quite frankly, what are they going to do about it?

    This is total and utter sh1t stirring. Teacher need to have control over students, it’s getting harder and harder from them to do so but it’s attitudes like yours that are making things even more difficult.

    Any child that walks out of determinism is a sh1t and if a parent Pulls the crap you suggest they are the type that teachers think are absolute clowns. Also walking out of detention will get you suspended etc you are very naive. It does kids absolutely no favours either in the long run having their parents coming in sorting out he crap they get themselves involved in.

    Also why is this in the Galway city forum.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,997 ✭✭✭✭rob316


    It's detention, you sit there do your homework and head home it's not worth getting worked up over. We all done it did us no harm.

    Walking out on detention, that's a fine way to teach respect to authority. Sigh

    Points effecting the mental well being of the child? I actually dispare when I think of this generation.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,337 ✭✭✭Wombatman


    I could be quite confident, that faced with a solid challenge and be nearly compelled to explain and justify their actions to avoid looking absolutely spineless, the teacher that is handing out points willy nilly will be very slow to ever issue points again if they think that this sort of headache is what results from it.

    Unfortunately your aggressive approach will give the teachers who are justified in handing out cards the same headache. If they are very slow to issue deserved points, as you say, order will break down in the school, which benefits nobody.

    I said the parents were right to seek a meeting to soft out the facts. Until then everybody should cool their jets.


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