What have we come to

storker · 21-02-2020 02:17PM

GreeBo wrote: »

The rising tide that brought the Irish boat 2-3 times higher?

Lets turn the argument on its head.
During the last 9 years the Irish economy has outgrown the euro area.
Please explain how this is not due to the policies of the government at the time?

(a) It's not possible to prove a negative, and (b) I'm not the one making the claim. I'm saying that I'm not convinced of the claim that's being made. I'm saying that if FG really is responsible for the growth, show me what it did and how it worked, i.e. back up the claim, with fact and numbers, also known as "evidence". Can you do that?

The Rape of Lucretia · 21-02-2020 02:23PM

Oh my God in his himmel ! The former (and maybe current) Chief of Staff of the IRA from the UK is in negotiations about the next government in Ireland.
What indeed have we come to ?

Cupatae · 21-02-2020 02:43PM

facehugger99 wrote: »

Returning the country to full employment, the bastards!

Its fantastic most people in full employment, still cant afford basic living people should be ****in buzzing.. unreal! what a time to be alive!

Tony EH · 21-02-2020 02:45PM

Cupatae wrote: »

Its fantastic most people in full employment, still cant afford basic living people should be ****in buzzing.. unreal! what a time to be alive!

"Economic growth" doesn't mean shit, if you still cannot afford the basics.

So you have a crappy job and are productive, working long hours and commuting back and forth to your parents house.

Great.

Cupatae · 21-02-2020 02:50PM

Tony EH wrote: »

"Economic growth" doesn't mean shit, if you still cannot afford the basics.

So you have a crappy job and are productive, working long hours and commuting back and forth to your parents house.

Great.

It makes me laugh that "full employment" is like the go too stick lol

https://www.thejournal.ie/minimum-wage-2-1871627-Jan2015/

Thats what "full employment" and "Economic growth" looks like for alot of people, aside from the car bit.

Tony EH · 21-02-2020 03:00PM

Cupatae wrote: »

It makes me laugh that "full employment" is like the go too stick lol

https://www.thejournal.ie/minimum-wage-2-1871627-Jan2015/

Thats what "full employment" and "Economic growth" looks like for alot of people.

This is another meaningless mantra.

"Full employment" doesn't mean shit either, when you can't buy the basics and these days employment is a transitory thing. You certainly cannot plan anything long term, like buying a home, using it as a yardstick.

Your "employment" might be offshored at the drop of a hat, on the whim of an employer. Redundancy is always lurking over the shoulder of employees today.

I'd say for a lot of people these days, the average length of time in one job is about 3 or 4 years.

blanch152 · 21-02-2020 03:15PM

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Oh my God in his himmel ! The former (and maybe current) Chief of Staff of the IRA from the UK is in negotiations about the next government in Ireland.
What indeed have we come to ?

Sinn Fein aren’t serious about government. They are playing a game.

Idbatterim · 21-02-2020 03:20PM

blanch152 wrote: »

Sinn Fein aren’t serious about government. They are playing a game.

SF are the final resort of a stick, to try and get FFG to get their useless fingers out! The were a tool used for that purpose

road_high · 21-02-2020 03:23PM

blanch152 wrote: »

Sinn Fein aren’t serious about government. They are playing a game.

Outside of social media ranting and likes, there’s little sf are serious about or indeed useful for

James Brown · 21-02-2020 03:26PM

Tony EH wrote: »

"Economic growth" doesn't mean shit, if you still cannot afford the basics.

So you have a crappy job and are productive, working long hours and commuting back and forth to your parents house.

Great.

FG know this and thankfully the public are beginning to.

blanch152 wrote: »

Sinn Fein aren’t serious about government. They are playing a game.

FG said they are relishing opposition and today in talks with FF. Also the Greens ran their lad for Taoiseach so they wouldn't be expected to side with anyone else. So give over.

storker · 21-02-2020 03:36PM

road_high wrote: »

Outside of social media ranting and likes, there’s little sf are serious about or indeed useful for

And yet they still got more votes and seats than FG. Goes to show how useful FG is...

Idbatterim · 21-02-2020 03:41PM

why are the FG supporters so angry about SF? FG are the ones that lost votes, because they chose to prioritise those others than the early risers, that they claimed they would help. this is all of FG own making. try to please everyone and they please no one. In fact they were so concerned about the "poor and vulnerable" they forgot, that not one of them likely ever has or ever will vote FG :rolleyes: Shows you how spineless they are! Probably worried one of them would have to go onto the far left RTE and defend rewarding who they said they would, many of them, the working poor (the heartless bastards) :rolleyes:

GreeBo · 21-02-2020 04:30PM

storker wrote: »

(a) It's not possible to prove a negative, and (b) I'm not the one making the claim. I'm saying that I'm not convinced of the claim that's being made. I'm saying that if FG really is responsible for the growth, show me what it did and how it worked, i.e. back up the claim, with fact and numbers, also known as "evidence". Can you do that?

The evidence is that Ireland outperformed the rest of the euro zone.

What other evidence would you expect? In any country, in any scenario, how would you go about proving cause and effect of economic policy?

Unless you have some method of resetting to the start, implementing a different policy and observing the difference, it would seem you are just being contrarian.

FrancieBrady · 21-02-2020 04:45PM

blanch152 wrote: »

Sinn Fein aren’t serious about government. They are playing a game.

:D:D:D

FF - We won't form a government with FG

FG - We will go into opposition.

Next week - FF and FG go in talks about forming a government.

But SF are playing a game???

:D:D

Shefwedfan · 21-02-2020 07:01PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

FF - We won't form a government with FG

FG - We will go into opposition.

Next week - FF and FG go in talks about forming a government.

But SF are playing a game???

SF in the mean time are trying to convince everyone they are not run by the IRA

:p

Even thou other Garda and PSNI say they are!!! I know who I believe

James Brown · 21-02-2020 07:03PM

Shefwedfan wrote: »

SF in the mean time are trying to convince everyone they are not run by the IRA :p

Even thou other Garda and PSNI say they are!!! I know who I believe

The Charlie Tan-again appointed former RUC/MI5 employee believes a report from 2015 from MI5. Fair play, I'd expect so.
Keep it up please

How is this solving the housing and insurance and health crises and how many f***s do the electorate give to it?

storker · 21-02-2020 07:22PM

GreeBo wrote: »

The evidence is that Ireland outperformed the rest of the euro zone.

What other evidence would you expect?

I'd want to see evidence of how it was done; evidence of the process. You seem to think the the outcome is sufficient evidence in itself - incidentally, this is not unlike how creationists argue.

In any country, in any scenario, how would you go about proving cause and effect of economic policy?

Seriously? Is that a trick question? I'd start by looking for specific policies or specific budget adjustments that were intended to create more economic activity, and then look at the economic indicators that one might expect to see increase as a result of each policy to make a judgement about its efficacy, and them amalgamate the changes brought by all these policies to see if they come anywhere near accounting for the increase in growth that was shown in the statistics.

Unless you have some method of resetting to the start, implementing a different policy and observing the difference, it would seem you are just being contrarian.

Unless you are prepared to present some evidence to support your claim, it would seem that you're just being credulous and happy to believe something simply on the basis that someone you want to believe has told you it's true.

All we have is a claim that economic growth happened because of FG; that FG was the miracle ingredient without which the growth couldn't have occurred. All I'm asking is, how did they do it? It's a simple enough question, but it's one I've never had an answer to. The response is usually a bit of bluster about this or that, followed by a sound not unlike blowing tumbleweed.

It's no surprise to me that you don't have the answer, because FG don't appear to have it either. I have no doubt that if they did, they'd have been proclaiming it loudly, and they weren't. Perhaps it's a secret... :eek:

growleaves · 21-02-2020 07:55PM

facehugger99 wrote: »

Returning the country to full employment, the bastards!

As the late Raymond Crotty pointed out in 1983, successive Irish governments have achieved full employment in part by the removal through emigration of large numbers of the unemployed population.

A small country which has traditionally 'produced emigrants' is not the same as other larger economic areas.

Taking credit for full employment worked in the past because anyone who didn't have to emigrate tended to have a good standard of living and they weren't in the mood to quibble.

It isn't working now because underemployment and the reduction in wages (relative to inflation) have been so drastic and have immiserated one section of the population while asset inflation has enriched another section of the population.

Diverting the unrest this has created into generational conflict has only been partially successful. Lots of Irish parents identify with their struggling children. Propaganda cliches about 'latte-drinking milennials', which originated with American publications, can only fool a limited amount of people.

Likewise, the robotic invocations of welfare-scroungers. Apart from anything else, the kind of people who perpetrate welfare scams are spending election day in the pub or bookies. They aren't politically astute strategic voters - they're just bums. No, I can't prove this - I know it through anecdotal experience and intuition only.

Shefwedfan · 21-02-2020 07:57PM

Bowie wrote: »

The Charlie Tan-again appointed former RUC/MI5 employee believes a report from 2015 from MI5. Fair play, I'd expect so.
Keep it up please

How is this solving the housing and insurance and health crises and how many f***s do the electorate give to it?

I do love the deflection.....not sure what the smiley faces are for

Billcarson · 21-02-2020 07:57PM

Two paragraphs taken from an article by David McWilliams at the end of last yr.

Housing remains the big failure but as this column has argued over and over, that is a priority or choice the government and electorate choose to make between the interests of landowners and the interests of workers. It has very little to do with economics and everything to do with political choices.

In 2020, if people want to see lower rents and more homes built, they should vote for the parties they believe will make those choices for them and leave the economy itself to continue on its great evolutionary arc.

lawrencesummers · 21-02-2020 08:00PM

The Garda commissioner won’t last long if SF form a government.

jimmycrackcorm · 21-02-2020 08:00PM

Yurt! wrote: »

More credit should be given to the Irish people and less to the likes of Michael Noonan etc for the restored growth in the country.

FG aren't responsible for the steady global economic growth since 2012 or so, and they should really stop trying to take the credit for it.

The housing crisis however, was a failure of inaction and dogma in area where the government had competency and did nothing to stop the slowly evolving train crash. They should carry the can for that one. Ditto with health.

So credit the Greek people for their 16% unemployment in the same period or their Sinn Fein model government?

James Brown · 21-02-2020 08:01PM

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I do love the deflection.....not sure what the smiley faces are for

What deflection? Is that just a go to? I agree that former IRA would be involved with SF.

lawrencesummers · 21-02-2020 08:09PM

Spend 19 million building accommodation on state land and you resolve a lot of homelessness.

https://jrnl.ie/5017050

This is the reason FFG got their arses handed to them, and if they don’t form another coalition the next election will be worse for them.

I said it a while back, it’s going to be a FFG coalition again, they will be terrified of what will happen otherwise., the only question is what they will call it this time because “confidence and supply” can’t be used again.

Shefwedfan · 21-02-2020 08:19PM

lawrencesummers wrote: »

The Garda commissioner won’t last long if SF form a government.

Ahh the SF way, don’t agree and get rid....stupid

James Brown · 21-02-2020 10:21PM

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Ahh the SF way, don’t agree and get rid....stupid

Pity FG weren't so inclined. Might have saved McCabe some suffering and Frances her blushes

Cupatae · 21-02-2020 10:57PM

growleaves wrote: »

As the late Raymond Crotty pointed out in 1983, successive Irish governments have achieved full employment in part by the removal through emigration of large numbers of the unemployed population.

A small country which has traditionally 'produced emigrants' is not the same as other larger economic areas.

Taking credit for full employment worked in the past because anyone who didn't have to emigrate tended to have a good standard of living and they weren't in the mood to quibble.

It isn't working now because underemployment and the reduction in wages (relative to inflation) have been so drastic and have immiserated one section of the population while asset inflation has enriched another section of the population.

Diverting the unrest this has created into generational conflict has only been partially successful. Lots of Irish parents identify with their struggling children. Propaganda cliches about 'latte-drinking milennials', which originated with American publications, can only fool a limited amount of people.

Likewise, the robotic invocations of welfare-scroungers. Apart from anything else, the kind of people who perpetrate welfare scams are spending election day in the pub or bookies. They aren't politically astute strategic voters - they're just bums. No, I can't prove this - I know it through anecdotal experience and intuition only.

Hit the nail on the head

Cupatae · 21-02-2020 10:59PM

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

So credit the Greek people for their 16% unemployment in the same period or their Sinn Fein model government?

I think you LL find the Greek situation is slightly different only ever so slight

Eric Cartman · 21-02-2020 11:03PM

growleaves wrote: »

As the late Raymond Crotty pointed out in 1983, successive Irish governments have achieved full employment in part by the removal through emigration of large numbers of the unemployed population.

A small country which has traditionally 'produced emigrants' is not the same as other larger economic areas.

Taking credit for full employment worked in the past because anyone who didn't have to emigrate tended to have a good standard of living and they weren't in the mood to quibble.

It isn't working now because underemployment and the reduction in wages (relative to inflation) have been so drastic and have immiserated one section of the population while asset inflation has enriched another section of the population.

Diverting the unrest this has created into generational conflict has only been partially successful. Lots of Irish parents identify with their struggling children. Propaganda cliches about 'latte-drinking milennials', which originated with American publications, can only fool a limited amount of people.

Likewise, the robotic invocations of welfare-scroungers. Apart from anything else, the kind of people who perpetrate welfare scams are spending election day in the pub or bookies. They aren't politically astute strategic voters - they're just bums. No, I can't prove this - I know it through anecdotal experience and intuition only.

Our problem occured when we opened up education for people (hold your pitchforks for a second) , in the past we had a lower standard of education, people left to work when times were bad and some returned when times got better a healthy enough cycle. As we gradually handed out free education and particularly reduced cost degrees we have ended up breaking that cycle, when things get bad, our educated skilled labour leaves, the taxation increases which are used by successive governments to keep the country afloat create a barrier which makes it unattractive for those educated skilled workers to return however the generous welfare state attracts unskilled migrants which shore up numbers but increasingly cause a detraction from the economy.

we're effectively breathing out oxygen and in carbon dioxide and with successive boom bust cycles the brain drain continues until eventually the unskilled and the elderly will cause so much demand on the system that the skilled workers cannot afford to support them.

We need a points based system to reject en masse the lower income earning immigrants and all of the welfare dependent ones or the non contributing family members of low to median income earning ones and at the same time decrease taxes to encourage our educated natives back in. There is no good reason at all to allow anyone or their family into this country if their (as a whole unit) contribution to the PRSI system isn't positive.

James Brown · 21-02-2020 11:33PM

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Our problem occured when we opened up education for people (hold your pitchforks for a second) , in the past we had a lower standard of education, people left to work when times were bad and some returned when times got better a healthy enough cycle. As we gradually handed out free education and particularly reduced cost degrees we have ended up breaking that cycle, when things get bad, our educated skilled labour leaves, the taxation increases which are used by successive governments to keep the country afloat create a barrier which makes it unattractive for those educated skilled workers to return however the generous welfare state attracts unskilled migrants which shore up numbers but increasingly cause a detraction from the economy.

we're effectively breathing out oxygen and in carbon dioxide and with successive boom bust cycles the brain drain continues until eventually the unskilled and the elderly will cause so much demand on the system that the skilled workers cannot afford to support them.

We need a points based system to reject en masse the lower income earning immigrants and all of the welfare dependent ones or the non contributing family members of low to median income earning ones and at the same time decrease taxes to encourage our educated natives back in. There is no good reason at all to allow anyone or their family into this country if their (as a whole unit) contribution to the PRSI system isn't positive.

Nothing healthy about a country having a cycle of vast swathes of youth having to leave to make a living.
I believe a move towards creating industry rather than being a PO box for multinationals might be healthier.

What have we come to

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