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Jordan Peterson interview on C4

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Comments

  • #5282
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 7,714 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Like..even the fact that the most reasonable (that's not the word I'm looking for..) argument against this involves bringing up the spectre of a sexual assault is f*cking perverse, and kind of shows how this is bringing in this weird discourse..What happened to modesty?..Why can't ladies have their own dressing rooms just in the interest of modesty?..


  • #5283
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 7,714 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Brian? wrote: »
    Of course biology is real. No one is arguing it isn't. It would be stupid to.

    Haha..yeah..

    Google tells me the idea that gender can be divorced from sex originated in the writings of radical feminists from the 1950s to the 1970s..


  • #5284
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Like..even the fact that the most reasonable (that's not the word I'm looking for..) argument against this involves bringing up the spectre of a sexual assault is f*cking perverse, and kind of shows how this is bringing in this weird discourse..What happened to modesty?..Why can't ladies have their own dressing rooms just in the interest of modesty?..

    Well, that’s important too but sadly we are dismissed as prudes for that.


  • #5285
    Gynoid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,524 ✭✭✭Gynoid


    Brian? wrote: »


    I am pointing out the logical hole here. You want a third space for transgender people to use. How do ensure they use it?

    There is no hole. Sex self ID does not apply in the single sex spaces. Third spaces - go as you please.


  • #5286
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,827 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    Well, with self-ID, we can’t. Realistically, nobody is going to be able to demand to see a gender recognition cert and I doubt they’d be entitled to ask that of anyone so we can’t really police it. And that is an undeniable loophole that can be exploited.

    Which renders this "solution" pointless imo.

    they/them/theirs


    The more you can increase fear of drugs and crime, welfare mothers, immigrants and aliens, the more you control all of the people.

    Noam Chomsky



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  • #5287
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,827 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    Gynoid wrote: »
    There is no hole. Sex self ID does not apply in the single sex spaces. Third spaces - go as you please.

    So you want to get rid of self ID?

    they/them/theirs


    The more you can increase fear of drugs and crime, welfare mothers, immigrants and aliens, the more you control all of the people.

    Noam Chomsky



  • #5288
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    Brian? wrote: »
    Which renders this "solution" pointless imo.

    Yes, allowing those who self-ID into women’s spaces does throw up problems, doesn’t it?
    Brian? wrote: »
    So you want to get rid of self ID?

    Not wanting those who self-ID as transwomen in women’s spaces =/= thinking people shouldn’t be able to self-ID.


  • #5289
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 16,208 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    Well, with self-ID, we can’t. Realistically, nobody is going to be able to demand to see a gender recognition cert and I doubt they’d be entitled to ask that of anyone so we can’t really police it. And that is an undeniable loophole that can be exploited.

    To be fair, I don't think such regulation is really needed. We have an existing system of male/females, where most people respect the different facilities. Some do break the rules, but if there's anyone inside they ask the offender to leave. Simple enough.

    There's an assumption here on boards that transgenders who have made the transition are undetectable. They're not. It's only those males with certain prior body types or those with access to the best operations who can pass unnoticed. Most transgenders who do the transition, especially those who have stopped midway, or are going through the transition are easily recognised. Simply asking them to leave would be the same if a standard male entered the female changing rooms. The minority who would be undetectable are a minority of an extreme minority...

    Personally, from looking at the photos of the sexual predators, or rapists who have sought to do the transition, they're easily recognised as trans. When it comes to self-id, don't give them access the same way as any other male wouldn't have access. Once a few people have been arrested and charged for breaking the rules, then word will get around. The danger is the demand for equal rights (or superior rights as a minority) which we've seen comes from the legal claims, but honestly, I do think we (as a society and legally) should be dismissing them rather quickly. The longer that we encourage the idea that Transgender people have the same rights for gender specific areas/protections/activities, as the target gender, the worse things are going to get. Transgenders are different. Sorry, but they are. Pretending otherwise is foolish.


  • #5290
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 16,208 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Brian? wrote: »
    So you want to get rid of self ID?

    You said earlier that nobody is disputing biology. Changing rooms and other gender specific areas are based on biology. The differences in biology. Self-ID haven't transitioned. So, they're biologically male (their original gender), so they should be using the male facilities.

    Nobody is telling people that they can't live as self-ID. They can do whatever they wish within the privacy of their own bubble. There is the same expectation for me to do the same as male. It's when that bubble is pushed on to other people that the problems arise. And when those problems arise, they should be treated as a biological male, because they are.


  • #5291
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,827 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    Yes, allowing those who self-ID into women’s spaces does throw up problems, doesn’t it?

    It throws up problems for some people, yes. For me, no it doesn't. I am just trying to understand what people see as the alternative.

    Not wanting those who self-ID as transwomen in women’s spaces =/= thinking people shouldn’t be able to self-ID.

    I know, I asked a clarifying question though.

    they/them/theirs


    The more you can increase fear of drugs and crime, welfare mothers, immigrants and aliens, the more you control all of the people.

    Noam Chomsky



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  • #5292
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 7,714 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    So should we take it Brian that you're all for 12 year old girls getting changed next to grown men who self identify as women?


  • #5293
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,827 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    Deleted User wrote: »
    You said earlier that nobody is disputing biology. Changing rooms and other gender specific areas are based on biology. The differences in biology. Self-ID haven't transitioned. So, they're biologically male (their original gender), so they should be using the male facilities.

    Nobody is telling people that they can't live as self-ID. They can do whatever they wish within the privacy of their own bubble. There is the same expectation for me to do the same as male. It's when that bubble is pushed on to other people that the problems arise. And when those problems arise, they should be treated as a biological male, because they are.

    Look, I don't know what the answer is. But I don't see restricting trans people from single sex spaces as the answer.

    It is far more nuanced than people seem to believe. Look at the pictures 20cent posted earlier, how can you tell those people to use the bathroom of their birth gender exclusviely?

    they/them/theirs


    The more you can increase fear of drugs and crime, welfare mothers, immigrants and aliens, the more you control all of the people.

    Noam Chomsky



  • #5294
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,827 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    Deleted User wrote: »
    So should we take it Brian that you're all for 12 year old girls getting changed next to grown men who self identify as women?

    That's entirely up to the 12 year old girl and her parents. There are plenty of 12 year old girls in the world who are naked in front of men regularly without issues.

    I am not in a position to tell people how to raise their children. My children wouldn't have an issue with it at all, they do it all the time now when they go swimming.

    they/them/theirs


    The more you can increase fear of drugs and crime, welfare mothers, immigrants and aliens, the more you control all of the people.

    Noam Chomsky



  • #5295
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 7,714 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Wtf..


  • #5296
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 16,208 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Brian? wrote: »
    That's entirely up to the 12 year old girl and her parents. There are plenty of 12 year old girls in the world who are naked in front of men regularly without issues.

    I am not in a position to tell people how to raise their children. My children wouldn't have an issue with it at all, they do it all the time now when they go swimming.

    Yes, but there are national and historical cultural/social differences. You can't simply wish that people in Spain and Ireland in terms of modesty and attitude would instantly be the same. Many Irish people are uncomfortable with their body and other peoples nudity, in a way that Spanish people wouldn't.


  • #5297
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    Brian? wrote: »
    That's entirely up to the 12 year old girl and her parents. There are plenty of 12 year old girls in the world who are naked in front of men regularly without issues.

    I am not in a position to tell people how to raise their children. My children wouldn't have an issue with it at all, they do it all the time now when they go swimming.

    Well, it might not be up to them. They may decide it’s not something they want but still find themselves next to a self-IDing male in a changing room.


  • #5298
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,827 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Yes, but there are national and historical cultural/social differences. You can't simply wish that people in Spain and Ireland in terms of modesty and attitude would instantly be the same. Many Irish people are uncomfortable with their body and other peoples nudity, in a way that Spanish people wouldn't.

    I am fully aware of that. But wouldn't it be better if we were all comfortable being naked around each other?

    I don't live in Ireland by the way, so I see this different attitude weekly. I can only see it as positive.

    they/them/theirs


    The more you can increase fear of drugs and crime, welfare mothers, immigrants and aliens, the more you control all of the people.

    Noam Chomsky



  • #5299
    nkl12xtw5goz70
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,497 ✭✭✭nkl12xtw5goz70


    Brian? wrote: »
    That's entirely up to the 12 year old girl and her parents. There are plenty of 12 year old girls in the world who are naked in front of men regularly without issues.

    I am not in a position to tell people how to raise their children. My children wouldn't have an issue with it at all, they do it all the time now when they go swimming.

    Let's look at the logic here.

    If biological males self-identifying as female feel uncomfortable changing in front of men, it's a matter of urgency to grant them access to the women's changing area.

    If a 12-year-old girl feels uncomfortable changing in front of biological males, she should be told that plenty of girls elsewhere in the world do it, and she should just get on with it.


  • #5300
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 16,208 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Brian? wrote: »
    Look, I don't know what the answer is. But I don't see restricting trans people from single sex spaces as the answer.

    It is far more nuanced than people seem to believe. Look at the pictures 20cent posted earlier, how can you tell those people to use the bathroom of their birth gender exclusviely?

    ahh well, I've ignored 20Cent, so nope didn't see the photos. On the other side, I do know Transgeners in Asia who are indistinguishable from anyone else. They've had the best treatment in making the transition.

    The problem is the movement to cover every possible angle. Is it fair to everyone? No. It's not. But as in everything in society, the majority should be protected, and the minority should be accommodated to an extent.

    Whereas I do see restricting Trans people from gender specific spaces as the answer. Allow biologically born males go to the male changing room, and biologically born females go to the female changing rooms. Those who don't fit into those two categories have to accept that they're seeking to be different, and make their own accommodations. I find it unreasonable that the majority have to make accommodations to an extreme minority that go beyond superficial changes. And access for transgender people to changing rooms, is not a superficial change.


  • #5301
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,827 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    Well, it might not be up to them. They may decide it’s not something they want but still find themselves next to a self-IDing male in a changing room.

    True. But I'm still stuck with the solution to it.

    they/them/theirs


    The more you can increase fear of drugs and crime, welfare mothers, immigrants and aliens, the more you control all of the people.

    Noam Chomsky



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  • #5302
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 7,714 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Kassidy Savory Tick wrote: »
    Let's look at the logic here.

    If biological males self-identifying as female feel uncomfortable changing in front of men, it's a matter of urgency to grant them access to the women's changing area.

    If a 12-year-old girl feels uncomfortable changing in front of biological males, she should be told that plenty of girls elsewhere in the world do it, and she should just get on with it.

    It's just so f*cking dark..


  • #5303
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,827 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    Kassidy Savory Tick wrote: »
    Let's look at the logic here.

    If biological males self-identifying as female feel uncomfortable changing in front of men, it's a matter of urgency to grant them access to the women's changing area.

    If a 12-year-old girl feels uncomfortable changing in front of biological males, she should be told that plenty of girls elsewhere in the world do it, and she should just get on with it.

    Yep. That's exactly what I'm saying.

    they/them/theirs


    The more you can increase fear of drugs and crime, welfare mothers, immigrants and aliens, the more you control all of the people.

    Noam Chomsky



  • #5304
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,827 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    It's just so f*cking dark..

    Why?

    they/them/theirs


    The more you can increase fear of drugs and crime, welfare mothers, immigrants and aliens, the more you control all of the people.

    Noam Chomsky



  • #5305
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 16,208 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Brian? wrote: »
    I am fully aware of that. But wouldn't it be better if we were all comfortable being naked around each other?

    Perhaps. I generally don't care about another persons nakedness. I've spent time at nudist camps, so it doesn't bother me in the slightest. However, I appreciate that many people don't feel that way, and don't want to feel that way.
    I don't live in Ireland by the way, so I see this different attitude weekly. I can only see it as positive.

    I don't live in Ireland either normally. I usually live in China, or other Asian countries... and in many cases, they're even more uncomfortable with nudity than Irish people.

    The problem with the transgender issue is that changes have to happen now. There's no allowance for the gradual acceptance of society for them. Society, in general, is moving away from the traditional limitations. And given time, people won't be so freaked out by personal space, and nudity (although feminists are pushing for personal spaces so maybe it'll come back stronger than before).


  • #5306
    LineOfBeauty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,211 ✭✭✭LineOfBeauty


    There's some strange sexualising of 12 years olds going on here today.


  • #5307
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 16,208 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Brian? wrote: »
    Yep. That's exactly what I'm saying.

    Sorry, but that is so messed up.. and I'm amazed you can't see why.

    Tell me something.. why do you believe that transgender rights of access are more important than the majority's rights for privacy?


  • #5308
    nkl12xtw5goz70
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,497 ✭✭✭nkl12xtw5goz70


    Brian? wrote: »
    Yep. That's exactly what I'm saying.

    Thanks for confirming that you're highly concerned about the sensitivities and feelings of adult biological males who identify as women, but couldn't care less about the sensitivities and feelings of adolescent girls and their parents.

    I honestly feel that the trans agenda could be summed up as "Compassion and rights for trans people, but screw everybody else."


  • #5309
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,827 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Sorry, but that is so messed up.. and I'm amazed you can't see why.

    Tell me something.. why do you believe that transgender rights of access are more important than the majority's rights for privacy?
    Kassidy Savory Tick wrote: »
    Thanks for confirming that you're highly concerned about the sensitivities and feelings of adult biological males who identify as women, but couldn't care less about the sensitivities and feelings of adolescent girls and their parents.

    I honestly feel that the trans agenda could be summed up as "Compassion and rights for trans people, but screw everybody else."

    Jesus, it was sarcasm.

    they/them/theirs


    The more you can increase fear of drugs and crime, welfare mothers, immigrants and aliens, the more you control all of the people.

    Noam Chomsky



  • #5310
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,827 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Perhaps. I generally don't care about another persons nakedness. I've spent time at nudist camps, so it doesn't bother me in the slightest. However, I appreciate that many people don't feel that way, and don't want to feel that way.



    I don't live in Ireland either normally. I usually live in China, or other Asian countries... and in many cases, they're even more uncomfortable with nudity than Irish people.

    The problem with the transgender issue is that changes have to happen now. There's no allowance for the gradual acceptance of society for them. Society, in general, is moving away from the traditional limitations. And given time, people won't be so freaked out by personal space, and nudity (although feminists are pushing for personal spaces so maybe it'll come back stronger than before).

    It's an extremely nuanced issue. I've said I don't know the answer.

    I am trying to make the point that reinforcing existing taboos and creating new ones isn't the answer though.

    I am surprised at all of the people who are so adamant that everyone deserves to feel comfortable, all the time, especially 12 year old girls. And at the same time dismissing the right of trans people to feel comfortable. Somehow they come to the conclusion that we need to police changing rooms.

    they/them/theirs


    The more you can increase fear of drugs and crime, welfare mothers, immigrants and aliens, the more you control all of the people.

    Noam Chomsky



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  • #5311
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,827 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Sorry, but that is so messed up.. and I'm amazed you can't see why.

    It was sarcasm.
    Tell me something.. why do you believe that transgender rights of access are more important than the majority's rights for privacy?

    I am not denying anyone's right to privacy. I am including Trans people, you aren't.

    Every solution I've seen proposed here is unworkable, so I believe the current situation is the least bad solution.

    they/them/theirs


    The more you can increase fear of drugs and crime, welfare mothers, immigrants and aliens, the more you control all of the people.

    Noam Chomsky



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