Next % to be banned?

IvoryTower · 11-02-2020 5:11pm

I'm not buying the shoes but I take caffeine, beta alanine and creatine, honestly it wouldnt surprise me if I got 2-3% between the 3. Maybe not but I wouldn't continue taking them if I didn't think they helped. Is that the same thing? Like if caffeine gave us 3% should we not take it

Damo 2k9 · 11-02-2020 5:26pm

chasingpaper wrote: »

Let's say Nike came up with a supplement(Oregon Project Effect (OPE)). It enhances efficiency on average 6%.

It offers an average 2-3% improvement in times. Or an average of 5 minutes for those bordering on 3 hours, maybe much more for strong responders.

It's legal, within the letter of the law but maybe not within the spirit of the law. Once your dosage (stack height) is within certain parameters you will not fail a test, but you will still likely get performance benefits.

Would people buying these shoes have no issues taking OPE and claiming their times as long as its world athletics say it is legal?

Ridiculous argument. Many people take BCAA, Iron supplements, Electrolytes, Sodium tablets, Protein drinks etc etc. These enhance runners performance but are all perfectly legal, both in law and spirit, no doubt aiding them in achieving a time they are aiming for.

mloc123 · 11-02-2020 5:28pm

chasingpaper wrote: »

Let's say Nike came up with a supplement(Oregon Project Effect (OPE)). It enhances efficiency on average 6%.

It offers an average 2-3% improvement in times. Or an average of 5 minutes for those bordering on 3 hours, maybe much more for strong responders.

It's legal, within the letter of the law but maybe not within the spirit of the law. Once your dosage (stack height) is within certain parameters you will not fail a test, but you will still likely get performance benefits.

Would people buying these shoes have no issues taking OPE and claiming their times as long as its world athletics say it is legal?

Some of the nonsense in this thread :rolleyes:

chasingpaper · 11-02-2020 6:01pm

IvoryTower wrote: »

I'm not buying the shoes but I take caffeine, beta alanine and creatine, honestly it wouldnt surprise me if I got 2-3% between the 3. Maybe not but I wouldn't continue taking them if I didn't think they helped. Is that the same thing? Like if caffeine gave us 3% should we not take it

I think there are some differences in caffeine/BA.

They have been around, in one form or another, as long as athletics.
So there has not been this sudden, undeniable spike in performances of elite runners that coincided with their introduction.

High dose caffeine was reintroduced 2004 after ban, there was not a huge surge in performances. The only comparison to the shoes is the steroid era in throws, women's short/mid distance, and epo era in distance running. There was a huge drop in certain elite performances after testing for these substances began, showing they had a real world effect.

A small amount of BA/caffeine which may produce results in clinical setting but nothing proven about sustained, significant results in elite athletes in real performances.

Even in trials benefits reduce after an optimal dose.
This is not what happens with the shoes, more tech=more improvements.

If EPO was legal would you take it? What about testosterone, you already produce it. So why not take an optimal dose right up to legal limit. T/E ratio is allowed to be 4.0 why not push to that level? Spirit of the law vs letter of the law.

In my mind these shoes are a complete farce, worse than actual doping. At least when you take PEDs your body is still running the race. This is mechanical doping. WA put on a 40mm limit but what if it was allowed to continue, when would the users say it is too much?
100mm with springs and 20% energy improvement?
150mm with wheels?

This is my view, I think they undermine the integrity of the sport
Everyone can make their own decision but all results in the shoes are tarnished in my opinion.

Edit. Sorry if this reads as a direct attack on you IT. I was talking in generalities, not you specifically.

chasingpaper · 11-02-2020 6:02pm

Damo 2k9 wrote: »

Ridiculous argument. Many people take BCAA, Iron supplements, Electrolytes, Sodium tablets, Protein drinks etc etc. These enhance runners performance but are all perfectly legal, both in law and spirit, no doubt aiding them in achieving a time they are aiming for.

So you would take the pill?

Can you really not see how a shoe that literally lets you run the same pace but with less effort is different to taking food/hydration supplements?

skyblue46 · 11-02-2020 9:54pm

I saw an interesting comment today. The drive for sustainability and a lower carbon footprint is on the rise. Meanwhile hobby joggers are spending mad money on shoes with a life of 100 miles...

Cona · 11-02-2020 10:12pm

skyblue46 wrote: »

I saw an interesting comment today. The drive for sustainability and a lower carbon footprint is on the rise. Meanwhile hobby joggers are spending mad money on shoes with a life of 100 miles...

This thread needs to be closed at this point.

OOnegative · 11-02-2020 10:34pm

Lads the shoes are legal, I don’t like it, fcuk me there’s millions I’d say don’t like it. Train the fcuk harder if you don’t agree!!

To the lads wearing them, sleep well at night!!!

sideswipe · 11-02-2020 11:12pm

chasingpaper wrote: »

So you would take the pill?

IvoryTower · 11-02-2020 11:32pm

I'll take the runners, the pill, all of the PBS that come with them and I will sleep like a baby, unless it's a caffeine pill

sideswipe · 11-02-2020 11:36pm

IvoryTower wrote: »

I'll take the runners, the pill, all of the PBS that come with them and I will sleep like a baby, unless it's a caffeine pill

I’d say Kipchoge has chronic insomnia;)

Damo 2k9 · 11-02-2020 11:44pm

chasingpaper wrote: »

So you would take the pill?

Can you really not see how a shoe that literally lets you run the same pace but with less effort is different to taking food/hydration supplements?

I'm from Finglas, we can get much better pills :pac:

And yeah, I'd replace my gels for them pills no bother :rolleyes:

chrismean · 12-02-2020 10:42am

I just wanted to note that records are still being broken without the Vaporfly/Next % tech. For example: https://www.runnersworld.com/news/a30496379/rhonex-kipruto-10k-world-record/

There has been an undeniable improvement across the board, but not all athletes making great breakthroughs are wearing the shoe.

And the lab-based measures are focused on efficiency improvements in shorter time trials. Shayla Kipp doesn't believe the marathon distance would *increase* the benefit of the shoe:

https://www.letsrun.com/news/2020/01/olympian-and-key-vaporfly-researcher-shalaya-kipp-talks-to-lrc-about-world-athletics-new-shoe-regulations/

chasingpaper wrote: »

They have been around, in one form or another, as long as athletics.
So there has not been this sudden, undeniable spike in performances of elite runners that coincided with their introduction.

ultrapercy · 12-02-2020 12:43pm

chasingpaper wrote: »

So you would take the pill?

Can you really not see how a shoe that literally lets you run the same pace but with less effort is different to taking food/hydration supplements?

Do you feel as strongly about caffeine gels etc?

chasingpaper · 12-02-2020 1:25pm

ultrapercy wrote: »

Do you feel as strongly about caffeine gels etc?

Gel is just food, I don't care about that.
When were gels introduced and was there a noticeable improvement in world class athletes? I'm not talking about distances longer than marathon.

As I said before about caffeine, high doses were banned. It was reintroduced and did not have an impact on elite performances. The performance benefits are not clear.

Even in the lab, the benefits do not continue past a certain dose. With the shoes adding more technology is continuing to improve efficiencies. Is there a limit where you say enough is enough?

I don't really care about average runners using special shoes, trying to beat a random round number or PB in the marathon. That's up to them, the only person they are really competing with is themselves. If Joe Blogs 2020 Next% beats Joe Blogs 2019 pegasus and he is happy with that it's ok. Its not for me, I'd rather know I actually got better and wouldn't just go back to my old times if I changed my shoes.

I care more about the top end of the sport. The inequality for elite athletes who are not sponsored by nike. The farce of the "difficult" 2020 qualifying time where 371 men ran the time in 2019. It makes performances incomparable to 5 years ago. The 5 fastest times in history all run in a 12 month period.

It is bad enough for them to ruin road running. But now this technology is infiltrating elite track all the way down to middle distance.

I think it is sad. I love this sport because of the purity of the endeavor, improving your body's ability to perform a certain task. Gaining an artificial mechanical advantage just goes against that for me.

mloc123 · 12-02-2020 8:50pm

chasingpaper wrote: »

If Joe Blogs 2020 Next% beats Joe Blogs 2019 pegasus and he is happy with that it's ok.

What if he beats his time which he originally set in Pegasus 28, now in Pegasus 36?

skyblue46 · 12-02-2020 10:08pm

mloc123 wrote: »

What if he beats his time which he originally set in Pegasus 28, now in Pegasus 36?

This debate is going around in circles and I keep promising myself to get out! Haha. However the step that the Next and even more so the Alpha offer are in a different league to new iterations of old shoes.

Bottom line is they are now legal. Different people will have different questions to answer in their own minds. Perhaps there is no right or wrong....

solidasarock · 13-02-2020 2:47pm

How is the "4% better" thing calculated?

Is it 4% better then bog standard trainers or 4% better then whatever was the leading elite marathon shoe was previously?

adrian522 · 13-02-2020 3:15pm

The claim is that the original "Vaporfly 4%" improve running economy by up to 4%. The actual running performance improvement will be somewhat less than that.

The effect is different for different people and the newer versions presumably have a bigger potential for improvement that the original Vaporfly.

Murph_D · 13-02-2020 3:32pm

adrian522 wrote: »

The claim is that the original "Vaporfly 4%" improve running economy by up to 4%. The actual running performance improvement will be somewhat less than that.

The effect is different for different people and the newer versions presumably have a bigger potential for improvement that the original Vaporfly.

4% was the average of the observed improvements (not the maximum) in the original, NIKE-sponsored study.

adrian522 · 13-02-2020 3:38pm

But that still refers to improvement in running economy not overall performance,

IvoryTower · 13-02-2020 3:43pm

From the NYTimes study

We found that a runner wearing the most popular versions of these shoes available to the public — the Zoom Vaporfly 4% or ZoomX Vaporfly Next% — ran 4 to 5 percent faster than a runner wearing an average shoe, and 2 to 3 percent faster than runners in the next-fastest popular shoe. (There was no meaningful difference between the Vaporfly and Next% shoes when we measured their effects separately. We have combined them in our estimates.)

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/12/13/upshot/nike-vaporfly-next-percent-shoe-estimates.html?action=click&module=Editors%20Picks&pgtype=Homepage?utm_source=digg

Itziger · 13-02-2020 5:42pm

What Vaporfly?

All aboard the Adizero Pro Light Strike.....

(Anyone want a pair of the Vaporfly? 60kms im 'em. Unique pink upper.....)

skyblue46 · 13-02-2020 8:21pm

Itziger wrote: »

What Vaporfly?

All aboard the Adizero Pro Light Strike.....

(Anyone want a pair of the Vaporfly? 60kms im 'em. Unique pink upper.....)

I'm conflicted now...the Brooks with a life of 100 miles are a tough purchase to contemplate. Saucony looks interesting and this Adizero is a super looking shoe. The yet to be launched NB Fuel Cell TC and RC are a beautiful shoe to look at and have had some very good reviews which definitely increase anticipation for the full race version. I presume Asics will have something to announce shortly too as their sponsored athletes have been running in prototypes...

shotgunmcos · 13-02-2020 9:34pm

Ok had no interest until I saw that Adizero. Sweet looking shoe. NB next up. Options at least...

joe35 · 14-02-2020 11:09am

Was at Armagh 5k last night, all athletes in the 5k seemed to be wearing next%. Great race to watch. In the 3k open race didn't notice anyone wearing them.

Cona · 14-02-2020 11:13pm

Really looking forward to some of the testing of Vapourflys vs Adizeros vs NB etc. This will be make or break for some of the running shoes companies, if they don’t match up to the Vaporflys, Nike will have a monopoly of things...

Lazare · 16-02-2020 11:34am

Cheptegei responds well it seems.

sideswipe · 20-02-2020 4:19pm

Now we're talking....lightweight and comfortable!

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Chivito550 · 24-02-2020 8:04pm

This highlights nicely what a farce this is.

https://twitter.com/letsrundotcom/status/1231996995339984896?s=19

healy1835 · 24-02-2020 8:43pm

Chivito550 wrote: »

This highlights nicely what a farce this is.

https://twitter.com/letsrundotcom/status/1231996995339984896?s=19

I think I'd be looking at more than just his change of footwear here

mloc123 · 28-02-2020 8:00pm

Nike handing out free pairs of aplhafly to anyone running in the US marathon trials this weekend.

Interesting to see how many blacked out pairs on non Nike athletes make it to the start line on the day

Miklos · 28-02-2020 8:53pm

healy1835 wrote: »

I think I'd be looking at more than just his change of footwear here

Yeah where can I get one of those magic singlets?

mloc123 · 28-02-2020 9:00pm

healy1835 wrote: »

I think I'd be looking at more than just his change of footwear here

It is an interesting point. How many of the amazing gains we have seen are down to shoes not "other advances", everyone has now dismissed these gains... Regardless of the % improvement, as a product of the shoes... Opens the door for athletes to be viewed with less suspicion.

and still ricky villa · 28-02-2020 9:57pm

mloc123 wrote: »

Nike handing out free pairs of aplhafly to anyone running in the US marathon trials this weekend.

Interesting to see how many blacked out pairs on non Nike athletes make it to the start line on the day

Kind of related but is this on the telly anywhere? Free of course

OOnegative · 28-02-2020 10:27pm

and still ricky villa wrote: »

Kind of related but is this on the telly anywhere? Free of course

Normally a stream on Watch Athletics.

healy1835 · 28-02-2020 10:47pm

and still ricky villa wrote: »

Kind of related but is this on the telly anywhere? Free of course

https://www.olympicchannel.com/en/events/detail/2020-us-olympics-team-trials-marathon-atlanta/

Damo 2k9 · 29-02-2020 11:52am

Shelf price of 275$, meaning probably 300€ here.

Itziger · 29-02-2020 12:01pm

mloc123 wrote: »

Nike handing out free pairs of aplhafly to anyone running in the US marathon trials this weekend.

Interesting to see how many blacked out pairs on non Nike athletes make it to the start line on the day

Aren't Alphaflys banned for Elites??

Damo 2k9 · 29-02-2020 4:08pm

Sold out in minutes. Resellers going to be putting them up for mad money.

rovers_runner · 29-02-2020 4:17pm

Damo 2k9 wrote: »

Sold out in minutes. Resellers going to be putting them up for mad money.

Crazy money, people with more money than sense.
Desperate to take a couple of handy mins off the races times rather than work harder to earn it.

KSU · 29-02-2020 4:24pm

Itziger wrote: »

Aren't Alphaflys banned for Elites??

Not the new ones (the black and Green). The ones Kipchoge ran in Vienna I believe are (though that is not confirmed as they didn't release details).

IvoryTower · 29-02-2020 4:43pm

rovers_runner wrote: »

Crazy money, people with more money than sense.
Desperate to take a couple of handy mins off the races times rather than work harder to earn it.

Plenty of people working hard as they can also would like a few extra %. If a pair of spikes comes out that gives me 1% I'll be first in line

rovers_runner · 29-02-2020 4:46pm

IvoryTower wrote: »

Plenty of people working hard as they can also would like a few extra %. If a pair of spikes comes out that gives me 1% I'll be first in line

It does kind of move the goalposts though.
How can you compare what you have done up to now against what you do in future once you cross over to these shoes.
How do you measure your progress?
You could have good runners almost sub three for years and these shoes put them over the top, was it them or the shoes...

IvoryTower · 29-02-2020 4:53pm

All racers will be like this soon so you just measure your progress from here on. You'll likely get one nice pb then back to the grind

The runners may have got them sub 3 but who cares, that's their own pb I'm sure they know the runners made a difference, the sub 3 guys will now be 2.55 or whatever, it's no different. Faster times for everyone

KSU · 29-02-2020 4:54pm

IvoryTower wrote: »

. If a pair of spikes comes out that gives me 1% I'll be first in line

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/athletics/2020/02/06/nike-threaten-assault-100m-records-release-futuristic-viperfly/

IvoryTower · 29-02-2020 4:57pm

KSU wrote: »

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/athletics/2020/02/06/nike-threaten-assault-100m-records-release-futuristic-viperfly/

I'll wait for the 800m ones and then I'll have to start sneaking money aside so the missus doesn't realise I'm spending 300e on spikes

Swashbuckler · 29-02-2020 5:12pm

IvoryTower wrote:

All racers will be like this soon so you just measure your progress from here on. You'll likely get one nice pb then back to the grind

Good point actually. Never really looked at it that way.

Lazare · 29-02-2020 6:08pm

IvoryTower wrote: »

All racers will be like this soon so you just measure your progress from here on. You'll likely get one nice pb then back to the grind

The runners may have got them sub 3 but who cares, that's their own pb I'm sure they know the runners made a difference, the sub 3 guys will now be 2.55 or whatever, it's no different. Faster times for everyone

I'm gonna stick wearing my NB flats and am gonna wear a t-shirt with 'You can only read this cause you're wearing Alphas' printed on the back.

Lazare · 29-02-2020 6:14pm

I'll get a mile or two of craic out of it

Next % to be banned?

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