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Next % to be banned?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,203 ✭✭✭ partyguinness


    Ceepo wrote: »
    A former national marathon champion had a pair "adapted" and ran the 2019 national cross country in them


    The main advantage is the feed back or bounce from road running so I am skeptical that you will get the same effect from softer ground.


  • Registered Users Posts: 943 ✭✭✭ KSU


    IvoryTower wrote: »
    It will just become normal soon, all the rivals will have their own version out and eventually there wont be much difference between them all, normality will resume with everyone a few % faster

    Might not be that simple. World Athletics look to be changing tact to keep the status quo stacked very much in Nike's favour (atleast in the interim)

    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/jan/28/controversial-nike-vaporflys-escape-ban


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,916 ✭✭✭ Itziger


    skyblue46 wrote: »
    It seems simple enough so far...nothing that is presently on the market will be banned. Neither will the upcoming Alphafly for anyone who frequents Boards or have no aspirations to win national, continental or global titles.

    As the Alphafly are considered to have an 8% benefit, double that of the first Vapourflys, I look forward to the posts from people who run PBs in them. I'm sure it'll be more of the same nonsensical guff stating that the jury is still out on the benefits and that their shiny new PB is pure coincidence. :-)

    Yooooooooooooooo!!!!

    Feel I have to jump in here because that's the very expression I used after a recent marathon PB wearing the Vapoflys. Here's exactly why the jury is still out for me. I trained hard and well for the marathon and to be honest I really expected to PB with whatever shoes I wore on the day. As it was my first time trying the Hansons plan, I don't know how much that contributed in terms of improvement.

    My PB was from Cork which is a tougher course than Valencia and in the end I only improved by 95 seconds or so. I was targeting a 5 minute improvement but faded in the second half of the race in very similar fashion to most of my other 42.2k efforts. My legs were well sore after the race. My first recovery run was 6 days later and still my quads were aching. Sorry to disappoint some of ye but I didn't feel a great benefit on the day. Yes, they had felt great in a training spin but that's not what I bought 'em for!!

    I know the stats do not support my own experience but what I wrote and felt is not nonsense.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,145 ✭✭✭ Ceepo


    The main advantage is the feed back or bounce from road running so I am skeptical that you will get the same effect from softer ground.

    I know that, you know that, and I assumed an athlete of his calibre would have known that, apparently not🙄


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,810 ✭✭✭ IvoryTower


    Itziger wrote: »
    Yooooooooooooooo!!!!

    Feel I have to jump in here because that's the very expression I used after a recent marathon PB wearing the Vapoflys. Here's exactly why the jury is still out for me. I trained hard and well for the marathon and to be honest I really expected to PB with whatever shoes I wore on the day. As it was my first time trying the Hansons plan, I don't know how much that contributed in terms of improvement.

    My PB was from Cork which is a tougher course than Valencia and in the end I only improved by 95 seconds or so. I was targeting a 5 minute improvement but faded in the second half of the race in very similar fashion to most of my other 42.2k efforts. My legs were well sore after the race. My first recovery run was 6 days later and still my quads were aching. Sorry to disappoint some of ye but I didn't feel a great benefit on the day. Yes, they had felt great in a training spin but that's not what I bought 'em for!!

    I know the stats do not support my own experience but what I wrote and felt is not nonsense.

    Sounds like you're unwilling to accept you just bought yourself a nice pb ;)


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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,171 ✭✭✭✭ event


    Sure we all wear light singlets, shorts etc when running. This happens with technology. If I see someone beside me in a pair of these and s/he ends up beating me, I wont be putting it down to purely the runners


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,158 ✭✭✭ Swashbuckler


    Is it not an issue for folks not knowing if the gains made are down to a well laid out and executed plan or a pair of runners? It's certainly my dilemma. I'd rather know if I trained well


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,414 ✭✭✭ sideswipe


    Is it not an issue for folks not knowing if the gains made are down to a well laid out and executed plan or a pair of runners? It's certainly my dilemma. I'd rather know if I trained well

    Nope. Maybe I’ll think about that afterwards, who knows. Maybe I’ll then decided to run again in a lesser shoe, perhaps not. Maybe I’ll run in a similar pair to the ones worn by John Tracey in LA just so I can compare my time with his on a level playing field. Of course that’ll mean giving up gels and wearing a cotton vest too but hey we have to keep things the same I guess ;)


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,158 ✭✭✭ Swashbuckler


    sideswipe wrote:
    Nope. Maybe I’ll think about that afterwards, who knows. Maybe I’ll then decided to run again in a lesser shoe, perhaps not. Maybe I’ll run in a similar pair to the ones worn by John Tracey in LA just so I can compare my time with his on a level playing field. Of course that’ll mean giving up gels and wearing a cotton vest too but hey we have to keep things the same I guess

    I get your point and I'm under no illusions, yes times have moved on, yes we have better methods and technologies and gels and all that nowadays but this just seems like something more than that for me.

    I'm not really interested in comparing my times to the days of yore. I'm more interested in seeing if my training in 2020 is more effective than last year and so on. I have a pair of the 4%.i have used them. First question I asked myself after was, would I have run that time in my adizero? I dunno. Im not taking moral highground or anything. It just doesn't sit well with me.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,414 ✭✭✭ sideswipe


    I get your point and I'm under no illusions, yes times have moved on, yes we have better methods and technologies and gels and all that nowadays but this just seems like something more than that for me.

    I'm not really interested in comparing my times to the days of yore. I'm more interested in seeing if my training in 2020 is more effective than last year and so on. I have a pair of the 4%.i have used them. First question I asked myself after was, would I have run that time in my adizero? I dunno. Im not taking moral highground or anything. It just doesn't sit well with me.

    If it’s legal I feel I’d be a fool not to use it. God knows I have enough disadvantages in a genetic sense. I can’t get my times adjusted to allow for the fact that I have a thyroid condition which has a big effect on recovery, weight and racing and training in warm humid conditions, essentially my body’s temperature regulator is bunched, if I run hard in humid, warm conditions I can’t cool properly pushing my HR way up to affect training/racing. Somebody offers me engineered shoes give an advantage I’ll take it with both hands, no apology. But each to their own.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,916 ✭✭✭ Itziger


    IvoryTower wrote: »
    Sounds like you're unwilling to accept you just bought yourself a nice pb ;)

    I don't recall quite as much fuss when I went from 3.03 to 2.59 in my Pearl Izumi!!! :)

    They're not even a running company FFS.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,578 ✭✭✭ ultrapercy


    Nike have pulled the greatest stroke since Kiaser Sosa. How is it possible that so many people can fall for this ploy? Fair dues to them though nobody will ever pay less than 300 euros for a pair of runners again and the 1000 euro/dollar shoe is months away.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,414 ✭✭✭ sideswipe


    ultrapercy wrote: »
    Nike have pulled the greatest stroke since Kiaser Sosa. How is it possible that so many people can fall for this ploy? Fair dues to them though nobody will ever pay less than 300 euros for a pair of runners again and the 1000 euro/dollar shoe is months away.

    You don't seriously believe that shoes will cost over 300 a pop from now on?

    As far as I remember Kiaser Sosa didn't actually exist. Whet Nike have done here is not a case of the emperors new clothes, they developed a shoe and made outlandish claims about them as sports companies and marketeers are renowned to do, the difference being that the claims turned out to be true and now everybody is losing their ****.

    I'm not trying to defend Nike here, they are a very questionable company. Maybe others are correct in terms of the overall health of the sport. I just have a very blinkered approach to my own goals.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,158 ✭✭✭ and still ricky villa


    ultrapercy wrote: »
    Fair dues to them though nobody will ever pay less than 300 euros for a pair of runners again and the 1000 euro/dollar shoe is months away.

    That'll never happen
    (Sent from my €1000 iPhone)


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,450 ✭✭✭ Damo 2k9


    Currently awaiting delivery of a pair of Next%, zoom fly's are just about up apparently and I had the opportunity to a nice discount.

    Times have moved on, technology has moved on, its the regulations that are slow to catch up in Athletics case.

    I know I spoke to S about this the other night but take Golf for example.

    How far have golf clubs and the accompanying technology come along? New Graphite shafts to allow for greater swing speed/club head speed, weight shift technology in driver/fairway woods head. Albeit there are a lot more regulations surrounding golf clubs. I know if I can afford a driver that can help me hit the ball further than I can with my 50 euro one, I'm going to go for it anyway (disclaimer: I am muck at golf :pac:)

    So, with running, if there is equipment that can help me achieve a better time (Maurten Gels? Calf Sleeves? Carbon Plate runners?) but in conjunction with better training, then so be it, I'm going to go for it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,503 ✭✭✭ skyblue46


    Damo 2k9 wrote: »
    Currently awaiting delivery of a pair of Next%, zoom fly's are just about up apparently and I had the opportunity to a nice discount.

    Times have moved on, technology has moved on, its the regulations that are slow to catch up in Athletics case.

    I know I spoke to S about this the other night but take Golf for example.

    How far have golf clubs and the accompanying technology come along? New Graphite shafts to allow for greater swing speed/club head speed, weight shift technology in driver/fairway woods head. Albeit there are a lot more regulations surrounding golf clubs. I know if I can afford a driver that can help me hit the ball further than I can with my 50 euro one, I'm going to go for it anyway (disclaimer: I am muck at golf :pac:)

    So, with running, if there is equipment that can help me achieve a better time (Maurten Gels? Calf Sleeves? Carbon Plate runners?) but in conjunction with better training, then so be it, I'm going to go for it.

    I take your point. I also argue against the idea that by being against the use of any particular running shoe means that anybody is anti-innovation or believes we should return to cinder tracks or cotton vests.

    Your comparison with golf is a fair one in one way but ignores the main point by glibly dismissing "a lot more regulations". It is the regulations that keep the integrity of the game somewhat intact. The fact is that manufacturers could produce a golf 'club' and a golf 'ball' which anyone could use and make one hit the other more than twice the distance they do now. They could make wedges to spin balls more than presently or to stop them dead like a stone. Again rules were brought in to control this. Similarly the LAZR suit was banned from competitive swimming. There is hardly a sport that doesn't regulate its equipment.

    Nike have done nothing wrong in developing the shoe. They developed them within a practically non existent set of rules most of which in any case were never enforced. As has been said other manufacturers will catch up and the playing field will be levelled albeit at a higher level. There is no doubt though that a set of regulations to control future development are badly needed.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 23,127 Mod ✭✭✭✭ robinph


    skyblue46 wrote: »
    There is no doubt though that a set of regulations to control future development are badly needed.

    Until now the definition of "shoe" was sufficient. They are perfectly capable of coming up with rules regarding the length of spikes on shoes, the weight of things that get thrown or length of poles used to jump things. Just until Nike reinvented the spring to be something that didn't look like a spring the rules have had no reason to say anything other than "don't use springs 'cos that would be cheating".

    Whilst it is a new thing for road running to need to define the equipment used compared with other sports that have been doing it for ages for defining size of wheels and such like and it's over due a definition. I don't think we can be overly critical in the delay in coming up with a regulation as until this point there was no need to define a shoe.

    It takes a while before each new tech can be understood and regulated, and until someone invents it there is nothing to regulate.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,450 ✭✭✭ Damo 2k9


    skyblue46 wrote: »
    I take your point. I also argue against the idea that by being against the use of any particular running shoe means that anybody is anti-innovation or believes we should return to cinder tracks or cotton vests.

    Your comparison with golf is a fair one in one way but ignores the main point by glibly dismissing "a lot more regulations". It is the regulations that keep the integrity of the game somewhat intact. The fact is that manufacturers could produce a golf 'club' and a golf 'ball' which anyone could use and make one hit the other more than twice the distance they do now. They could make wedges to spin balls more than presently or to stop them dead like a stone. Again rules were brought in to control this. Similarly the LAZR suit was banned from competitive swimming. There is hardly a sport that doesn't regulate its equipment.

    Nike have done nothing wrong in developing the shoe. They developed them within a practically non existent set of rules most of which in any case were never enforced. As has been said other manufacturers will catch up and the playing field will be levelled albeit at a higher level. There is no doubt though that a set of regulations to control future development are badly needed.

    I didnt mean the comparison about Maurten Gels/Calf sleeves to be me saying "Well everyone should be against everything running related that has advanced in the last 20 years if they are against these shoes" I was just using it as a comparison that people use these for aiding them to a better time, so why not shoes.

    100% agree that the regulations keep the integrity of the sport intact, and I think its something everyone can agree on. I could be wrong on this as I am only a newcomer myself, but with the ever growing popularity of running do you think that the sport has grown a bit too fast and its why regulations are slightly behind? Or they simply never thought that a manufacturer could make a shoe that can help performance so much. Whereas maybe it was apparent at a much earlier stage in the development of the sport of Golf that technology was going so fast they needed to slow it down, to keep that integrity of the sport. So people weren't shooting 12 under par in Augusta.

    Weve already seen Hoka Carbon X help (along with unbelievable training) Walmsley set a new 50 mile World Record, and no doubt more manufacturers will be jumping on the carbon plate train this year, as well as even more advanced technologies.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,127 ✭✭✭ Murph_D


    robinph wrote: »
    It takes a while before each new tech can be understood and regulated, and until someone invents it there is nothing to regulate.

    Easy enough to have a regulation that all shoes are illegal by default until the model is officially approved.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,503 ✭✭✭ skyblue46


    Itziger wrote: »
    Yooooooooooooooo!!!!

    Feel I have to jump in here because that's the very expression I used after a recent marathon PB wearing the Vapoflys. Here's exactly why the jury is still out for me. I trained hard and well for the marathon and to be honest I really expected to PB with whatever shoes I wore on the day. As it was my first time trying the Hansons plan, I don't know how much that contributed in terms of improvement.

    My PB was from Cork which is a tougher course than Valencia and in the end I only improved by 95 seconds or so. I was targeting a 5 minute improvement but faded in the second half of the race in very similar fashion to most of my other 42.2k efforts. My legs were well sore after the race. My first recovery run was 6 days later and still my quads were aching. Sorry to disappoint some of ye but I didn't feel a great benefit on the day. Yes, they had felt great in a training spin but that's not what I bought 'em for!!

    I know the stats do not support my own experience but what I wrote and felt is not nonsense.

    Sorry only seeing this now as I was reading the thread in reverse.

    Sorry, my use of a common phrase was in no way aimed at yourself. It was a general comment. That being said I still believe in the weight of what might be called circumstantial evidence that suggests the shoes give substantial benefits.

    Your expectations weren't met on the day but many people line up for races feeling a PB is in the offing based on training and it doesn't happen. Maybe you got a 95 second PB instead of a time 2 mins outside a PB, who knows? Maybe it's all a ball of smoke, maybe the Alphaflys will also be.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,414 ✭✭✭ sideswipe




  • Registered Users Posts: 4,503 ✭✭✭ skyblue46


    sideswipe wrote: »

    Hopefully it's worth the watch...although I suppose 'unfair' is the crucial word. That one is just a matter of opinion...


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,414 ✭✭✭ sideswipe


    skyblue46 wrote: »
    Hopefully it's worth the watch...although I suppose 'unfair' is the crucial word. That one is just a matter of opinion...

    You saw 'unfair', I saw 'unfair to elite runners'. :P


  • Registered Users Posts: 783 ✭✭✭ Lambay island


    Anyone catch that interview last night on Euro News? I didn't.

    I used them for the first time for Raheny last week. I Initially felt like a bit of smug knob lacing them up at the car to be honest. Twice, I debated just sticking on my newer Nike reacts instead. I had ran an 18.31 5k (Jingle bells) in a fairly battered pair of reacts back in December, that I had used for DCM too, so I had a element of trust in them although they had seen far better days. I had no issue while running but had pain in calves, feet etc for a couple of days after.

    I'm still new enough to running so I haven't had runners up to now just for racing. I made a conscious decision after Jingle Bells to have a sole pair of runners I just simply used for racing. I toyed with it for a while but eventually purchased a pair of Vapourflys earlier this month, less for the extra speed but more for the recovery "in my mind anyway".
    Roll on the race, I didn't notice any major difference while running and I had no comparison 5 mile to compare but I was probably at least 30/45 seconds faster then I expected my best could be(29.34 was result with a sub 18 5k in there). I was fitter and better trained going into this race then December but cant help but think the only reason I got under 30 was the runners. Who knows I suppose, kinda regret wearing them here though, as I cant be sure where I am truly at right now. The biggest thing I noticed was in fact recovery. Next day, I had no issues or tightness whatsoever.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,709 ✭✭✭ Laineyfrecks


    Gonna give my tupence here as i also own a pair of vapourfly 4%. I like D am very new to running. To me runners were just runners, had no preference on brands or styles. The main thing for me was that they fit correctly & i could run comfortably in them. Now that i am a real runner(after completing my marathon this was the title i assumed) I am learning about the importance of my runners, which let me add to someone new this is a minefield!! There are so many runners out there and even more opinions on them, it's enough to make you dizzy!
    I wanted to purchase a pair solely for races and had heard all the hype about vapourflys but when i 1st looked at them i couldn't justify the cost. Roll on a couple of weeks to black Friday deals & i was able to purchase a pair for 118euro which i did straight away! I had them for Jingle bells but again through reading stuff here & listening to opinions i was torn about wearing them, so i didn't. Was it the right decision who knows? All i know is that day is best forgotten haha. I thought hard about it and decided that technology moves on & yes there was lots of research saying they helped people get their pbs...could i live with that? Yes i could, so i wore them for my parkrun & yes i got a pb but along with the runners (that did not magically run the race for me )there was a lot of hard training behind the scenes and pure grit & determination! Again i wore them for Raheny and again i did a brilliant time, down to the runners? Maybe a little but i actually don't care because I know how hard i work & i listen to what I'm being told to do training wise. As D said my legs felt great during & after each of those races which to me is a huge bonus!
    Technology moves on it's that simple, you either move with it or don't but ultimately that is a personal choice.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,414 ✭✭✭ sideswipe


    The Euro News slot wasn't great- one guy for and one against. The general gist was they had nothing against the shoes just the lack of regulation and enforcement particularly in an Olympic year were athletes are affected.

    In the mean time new shots fired in the arms race:

    https://twitter.com/runnersworlduk/status/1223231218294099969?s=20


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 6,302 Mod ✭✭✭✭ TFBubendorfer


    sideswipe wrote: »
    In the mean time new shots fired in the arms race:

    "These shoes only have 50-100 miles in them. They’ll retail at £210." :eek::eek::eek:


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,414 ✭✭✭ sideswipe


    "These shoes only have 50-100 miles in them. They’ll retail at £210." :eek::eek::eek:

    Shocking ain’t it- disposable race day shoes!

    IMO the Vaporflys are the same, I’ve a pair with 300k on them and they are not the shoe they were out of the box. I think the Alphaflys intend to address this with the air pockets which are actually old tech for Nike, if they ever see the light of day.


  • Registered Users Posts: 943 ✭✭✭ KSU


    sideswipe wrote: »
    Shocking ain’t it- disposable race day shoes!

    IMO the Vaporflys are the same, I’ve a pair with 300k on them and they are not the shoe they were out of the box. I think the Alphaflys intend to address this with the air pockets which are actually old tech for Nike, if they ever see the light of day.

    Will never beat the original's

    https://www.roadrunnersports.com/rrs/products/NIK607/mens-nike-mayfly/

    You would be welcoming short courses just to keep cost down


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  • Registered Users Posts: 943 ✭✭✭ KSU


    WA have now released the guidelines for going forward

    Highlights:
    -Stack heigh limit- 40mm for shoes, 30mm for spikes
    -No prototype shoes (except for medical reasons)
    -Shoe must be available for 4 months to the public to be used
    -Only one rigid plate allowed in the shoe

    So TUEs will now extend to shoes :P


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