Next % to be banned?

and still ricky villa · 01-02-2020 9:57am

Clown shoes ordered

Lots of reasons I've not gone for these beforehand but if anything this thread and the WA ruling made my mind up.

Curious that the thread was started by justdoit....

MY BAD · 01-02-2020 3:57pm

Believe in the runs take on it
https://www.believeintherun.com/2020/01/31/world-athletics-nike-alphafly-ban/?utm_campaign=later-linkinbio-believeintherun&utm_content=later-5129452&utm_medium=social&utm_source=instagram

Murph_D · 01-02-2020 7:27pm

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

They would also have to remove the additional carbon plates

Only one plate (and 40mm stack) in latest Alphafly prototypes, according to above linked article.

Murph_D · 01-02-2020 7:57pm

I don’t subscribe to the argument that we have to move with the technology. It’s OK to attempt to protect the integrity of a sport by limiting the technology. Golf, Formula One, cycling all do this in one way or another. Someone above mentioned sticky gloves as an example - but it was well within the remit of the GAA to ban them. Maybe they should have. Maybe they still can, and players will have to eat their glove investment.

Having said that, the shoe rules have been changed (clarified?) and the rules is the rules. I’ll be buying a pair. If I can afford them, it would be be silly not to, if I want to compete in my category against people who have them. Yes, I can train harder/better too, but its not an either/or - why not both?

rovers_runner · 03-02-2020 10:52am

I foresee a lot of injuries to people wearing these shoes that shouldn't be(overpronators).
For instance looking at pictures from the Trim 10 yesterday you can see how people wearing them are collapsing severely into their instep. This will cause endless injuries no doubt.

IvoryTower · 03-02-2020 10:55am

They likely only wear them to race so maybe not

MY BAD · 03-02-2020 11:13am

rovers_runner wrote: »

I foresee a lot of injuries to people wearing these shoes that shouldn't be(overpronators).
.

Its a racing shoe so it doesn't really matter...

rovers_runner · 03-02-2020 11:25am

Mellow Yellow 26.2 wrote: »

Its a racing shoe so it doesn't really matter...

Why bother having support shoes at all so?
You'd train maybe x amount miles in a spell coming into a race, at race pace/intervals/recovery.
And then switch to a completely different shoe on race day?

Ceepo · 03-02-2020 12:04pm

rovers_runner wrote: »

I foresee a lot of injuries to people wearing these shoes that shouldn't be(overpronators).
For instance looking at pictures from the Trim 10 yesterday you can see how people wearing them are collapsing severely into their instep. This will cause endless injuries no doubt.

Its probably no different that someone wearing a support shoe for training and wearing spikes for track or cross country.

Also there isn't a lot if evidence to say a " type" of shoe prevents injury.

Swashbuckler · 03-02-2020 12:05pm

rovers_runner wrote:

Why bother having support shoes at all so? You'd train maybe x amount miles in a spell coming into a race, at race pace/intervals/recovery. And then switch to a completely different shoe on race day?

In short, yes

MY BAD · 03-02-2020 12:20pm

rovers_runner wrote: »

Why bother having support shoes at all so?
You'd train maybe x amount miles in a spell coming into a race, at race pace/intervals/recovery.
And then switch to a completely different shoe on race day?

I think support shoes are completely unnecessary for the vast majority of people. Comfort and If you know what drop that suits you is more important. Support shoes certainly don't prevent injury.

average_runner · 03-02-2020 12:27pm

Murph_D wrote: »

I don’t subscribe to the argument that we have to move with the technology. It’s OK to attempt to protect the integrity of a sport by limiting the technology. Golf, Formula One, cycling all do this in one way or another. Someone above mentioned sticky gloves as an example - but it was well within the remit of the GAA to ban them. Maybe they should have. Maybe they still can, and players will have to eat their glove investment.

Having said that, the shoe rules have been changed (clarified?) and the rules is the rules. I’ll be buying a pair. If I can afford them, it would be be silly not to, if I want to compete in my category against people who have them. Yes, I can train harder/better too, but its not an either/or - why not both?

Can't see me buying then, mainly because I don't like what Nike stands for. But they are effective and people will get new pbs with them.

I know in my category even if I had them, I wouldn't be challenging, so pointless on that front for me also.

rovers_runner · 03-02-2020 12:49pm

Mellow Yellow 26.2 wrote: »

I think support shoes are completely unnecessary for the vast majority of people. Comfort and If you know what drop that suits you is more important. Support shoes certainly don't prevent injury.

If you were actually an over or under pronator you'd know how stupid what you've just written is, so we will leave it at that.

MY BAD · 03-02-2020 12:58pm

rovers_runner wrote: »

If you were actually an over or under pronator you'd know how stupid what you've just written is, so we will leave it at that.

I am one but hey

Ceepo · 03-02-2020 1:03pm

rovers_runner wrote: »

If you were actually an over or under pronator you'd know how stupid what you've just written is, so we will leave it at that.

Serious question.
As pronation is a natural occurrence of gait, at what degree of pronation to you class someone as over pronation. ?

Damo 2k9 · 03-02-2020 1:27pm

average_runner wrote: »

Can't see me buying then, mainly because I don't like what Nike stands for. But they are effective and people will get new pbs with them.

I know in my category even if I had them, I wouldn't be challenging, so pointless on that front for me also.

I'm not challenging for age category, far from it, but I'm racing against myself. Ive said my piece on it, but I dont really get this argument that if your not going for podium you shouldn't use everything at your disposal to be as fast as you can (within regulations

).

I think the hatred against Nike is completely taking over the argument as well, IMO. People are completely swayed to one side of the argument just because of the logo on the shoe, it should be about the shoe itself regardless of the brand.

IvoryTower · 03-02-2020 1:33pm

I've decided against buying them but i'm taking 4% off any times I run in races 5k and up

Murph_D · 03-02-2020 2:15pm

rovers_runner wrote: »

I foresee a lot of injuries to people wearing these shoes that shouldn't be(overpronators).
For instance looking at pictures from the Trim 10 yesterday you can see how people wearing them are collapsing severely into their instep. This will cause endless injuries no doubt.

There’s no good evidence that overpronators need different shoes. It’s a marketing ploy.

and still ricky villa · 03-02-2020 2:27pm

I'm of a similar opinion. No one gives a toss what my results are apart from me.
I'll happily count my new PB as my best effort. All but about 20 miles of training will be done in the Next%'s so the time is less down to the shoes and more to do with the months of hard graft I'm putting in.

As for overpronators. I was diagnosed as a mild overpronator by a well known running shop. I've been through a few brands with varying degrees of injury (adidas, Asics, NB) before being in Mizuno for the past few years with, thankfully, no issues.
3+ hours in Nike isn't going to put me in a wheelchair

average_runner · 03-02-2020 2:52pm

Damo 2k9 wrote: »

I'm not challenging for age category, far from it, but I'm racing against myself. Ive said my piece on it, but I dont really get this argument that if your not going for podium you shouldn't use everything at your disposal to be as fast as you can (within regulations ).

I think the hatred against Nike is completely taking over the argument as well, IMO. People are completely swayed to one side of the argument just because of the logo on the shoe, it should be about the shoe itself regardless of the brand.

I still want PB's but I want to know I got it because I am improving and not because of a runner. For example, my pb in 5k is 19:38, if I run 19:37 in vapor fly, have I really improved or gone backwards?

No problem with any one wearing them, hope ye have great racing in them.

Cona · 03-02-2020 2:59pm

Dungarvan 10 yesterday, I was shocked by the amount of people wearing these. It was literally a sea of pink, green and orange. I would say more were wearing them than not.

Damo 2k9 · 03-02-2020 3:09pm

average_runner wrote: »

I still want PB's but I want to know I got it because I am improving and not because of a runner. For example, my pb in 5k is 19:38, if I run 19:37 in vapor fly, have I really improved or gone backwards?

No problem with any one wearing them, hope ye have great racing in them.

Could say that about having a pair of runners for racing and a pair for regular mileage?

You may run faster in a pair of Adidas Boston's compared to a pair of really cushioned Ultraboost, so is that down to the runner and not your training?

I know you havent and I hope it doesnt come across as me having a go at anyone, just having a conversation is all.

average_runner · 03-02-2020 3:13pm

Damo 2k9 wrote: »

Could say that about having a pair of runners for racing and a pair for regular mileage?

You may run faster in a pair of Adidas Boston's compared to a pair of really cushioned Ultraboost, so is that down to the runner and not your training?

I know you havent and I hope it doesnt come across as me having a go at anyone, just having a conversation is all.

Total conversation, I understand the attraction to them.

opus · 03-02-2020 5:09pm

Cona wrote: »

Dungarvan 10 yesterday, I was shocked by the amount of people wearing these. It was literally a sea of pink, green and orange. I would say more were wearing them than not.

Yup I noticed that as well, maybe cause those shoes are so easy to spot. Another article in the Guardian today about them.

The Great Shoe War has switched lanes to the track but Nike still leads the field

Cona · 03-02-2020 5:21pm

opus wrote: »

Yup I noticed that as well, maybe cause those shoes are so easy to spot. Another article in the Guardian today about them.

Spent far too much time this morning looking through photos on the Running in Cork FB page. Think I counted the first 18 men all wearing VFs. I guess if you want to compete at that level, you have to have them!

average_runner · 03-02-2020 5:30pm

Cona wrote: »

Spent far too much time this morning looking through photos on the Running in Cork FB page. Think I counted the first 18 men all wearing VFs. I guess if you want to compete at that level, you have to have them!

Trim 10 miler had a prize for first non vapor fly runner!!

skyblue46 · 03-02-2020 7:05pm

Damo 2k9 wrote: »

I'm not challenging for age category, far from it, but I'm racing against myself. Ive said my piece on it, but I dont really get this argument that if your not going for podium you shouldn't use everything at your disposal to be as fast as you can (within regulations ).

I think the hatred against Nike is completely taking over the argument as well, IMO. People are completely swayed to one side of the argument just because of the logo on the shoe, it should be about the shoe itself regardless of the brand.

Hey Damo. One last comment on this before I'm over and out with the topic. I'm done with it. The 'hatred' of which you speak is aimed at the brand because it is the one which influences WA in a way no other brand can.

Last week's decision was made to allow Nike continue as normal. How else can the new 30mm limit on stack height for spikes be interpreted? Nike are the only company with a prototype of that height. It has enabled world class athletes like Muir knock seconds off even 800m times. Nobody looked for or wanted that limit except Nike. As previously happened with the VF these spikes break the unfair advantage guideline regarding the legality of shoes.

Changing the rules after the event to suit one manufacturer is a shocking state of affairs.

Anyway, I'm done with this..

Chivito550 · 04-02-2020 10:27pm

Fair play Fionnuala.

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/other-sports/fionnuala-mccormack-feels-let-down-by-weak-nike-vaporfly-decision-1.4161727

mloc123 · 04-02-2020 10:29pm

Chivito550 wrote: »

Fair play Fionnuala.

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/other-sports/fionnuala-mccormack-feels-let-down-by-weak-nike-vaporfly-decision-1.4161727

Non Nike sponsored athlete complains about Nike making fast shoes... shocker

KSU · 04-02-2020 10:39pm

mloc123 wrote: »

Non Nike sponsored athlete complains about Nike making fast shoes... shocker

She has also opted to not wear her own brands shoe which has seen success with Callum Hawkins as of late

Murph_D · 04-02-2020 11:45pm

KSU wrote: »

She has also opted to not wear her own brands shoe which has seen success with Callum Hawkins as of late

Hasn’t ruled it out for the future though, if we’re talking about the same shoe:

https://www.the42.ie/fionnuala-mccormack-3-4992458-Feb2020/

Trampas · 05-02-2020 6:35am

What next they’re wearing more wind resistant singlets and shorts.

Shoes available for everyone so it’s a level playing field.

Chivito550 · 05-02-2020 9:13am

With a sudden spike in the number of PBs down to harder training, I think it's clear now that those who ran 5-10 years ago were just soft. The current generation are just more hard working.

and still ricky villa · 05-02-2020 9:19am

Chivito550 wrote: »

With a sudden spike in the number of PBs down to harder training, I think it's clear now that those who ran 5-10 years ago were just soft. The current generation are just more hard working.

INCOMING!!!!!!

sideswipe · 05-02-2020 10:54am

Chivito550 wrote: »

With a sudden spike in the number of PBs down to harder training, I think it's clear now that those who ran 5-10 years ago were just soft. The current generation are just more hard working.

Slightly off topic but saw this yesterday and thought it was interesting:

https://twitter.com/higdonmarathon/status/1224721215170007040?s=20

Would be interesting to ask the same question to former greats like Steve Jones and see what their views are.

healy1835 · 05-02-2020 11:12am

https://www.outsideonline.com/2408971/nike-vaporfly-controversy#close

ultrapercy · 05-02-2020 11:38am

Chivito550 wrote: »

With a sudden spike in the number of PBs down to harder training, I think it's clear now that those who ran 5-10 years ago were just soft. The current generation are just more hard working.

You'r probably being facetious but there is something to this. Distance running standards jad fallen to below what would be considered club standards in the noughties. All anyone talked about was recovery even though most people were not doing enough to recover from. Stretching, foam rolling, s+c, and cross trsining had replaced miles. At the sub elite level at least strava has had a massive impact on training. People can now see exactly what it takes to improve and it isnt easy it take enormous work to run fast times even at sub elite level. Road times are back to the standard of the 80s/90s now but why shouldnt they be? If people with talent are putting in the work results will follow. The shoes have had an impact too but Nike very clecerly caught a wave and exploited it to their own advantage.

Ceepo · 05-02-2020 11:58am

Chivito550 wrote: »

Fair play Fionnuala.

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/other-sports/fionnuala-mccormack-feels-let-down-by-weak-nike-vaporfly-decision-1.4161727

While her decision is admirable, do you think it is the right one for her to take.
The general consensus it that the runners (nike or equivalent) are faster than racing flats, Is she putting herself at a disadvantage

sideswipe · 05-02-2020 1:09pm

healy1835 wrote: »

https://www.outsideonline.com/2408971/nike-vaporfly-controversy#close

That is probably the best overview of the whole vaporgate debacle I've read, well worth a read.

opus · 05-02-2020 8:34pm

Next version is one the way!

https://twitter.com/seaningle/status/1225135524404514817

KSU · 05-02-2020 9:28pm

opus wrote: »

Next version is one the way!

https://twitter.com/seaningle/status/1225135524404514817

Spikes also included in this range and have been dubbed Viperflies. Set to replace the Victories

(Guessing these are the ones Jemma Rekkie and Laura Muir have been in recently)

sideswipe · 05-02-2020 9:41pm

KSU wrote: »

Spikes also included in this range and have been dubbed Viperflies. Set to replace the Victories

(Guessing these are the ones Jemma Rekkie and Laura Muir have been in recently)

Yep-

skyblue46 · 05-02-2020 10:31pm

opus wrote: »

Next version is one the way!

https://twitter.com/seaningle/status/1225135524404514817

My name is all over these

sideswipe · 05-02-2020 10:44pm

skyblue46 wrote: »

My name is all over these

Funny, I thought about you as soon as I saw them:)

Swashbuckler · 05-02-2020 10:55pm

I wonder do they have them in sky blue?

skyblue46 · 05-02-2020 11:24pm

sideswipe wrote: »

Funny, I thought about you as soon as I saw them:)

Swashbuckler wrote: »

I wonder do they have them in sky blue?

No need to worry about the colour. Once you throw away your principles and accept that running is no longer a pure sport, a sport where the fittest/ fastest wins then black is the perfect colour. The same as my soul will be....:(

Cona · 05-02-2020 11:42pm

Need to be available publicly 4 months before Olympics so really they should be available in February/March?

IvoryTower · 06-02-2020 6:38am

I wonder what % the spikes give....

skyblue46 · 06-02-2020 7:18am

Cona wrote: »

Need to be available publicly 4 months before Olympics so really they should be available in February/March?

The 4 month rule only kicks in on the 30th of April so they don't have to be on sale everywhere until then. Apparently Nike Plus members will be able to try to get some on 29th of this month. Nike have still not mentioned a price.

It was interesting to see the press release mention their ongoing "dialogue" with WA regarding the rules. This sounds very much like the tail wagging the dog! It's pretty clear none of the other shoe companies are lucky enough to have the ear of WA or they wouldn't be hastily rearranging launch dates for their shoes.

Lazare · 06-02-2020 8:57pm

The cost of vaporflys/alphaflys will exclude most people from the advantages they give.

Until now. Surely Nike will be rattled by this.

4% edge? Pfft.

Nike will not be able to compete with this innovation once it spreads...

Get out and run more miles

Next % to be banned?

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