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The Weird, Wacky and Awesome World of the NFL - General Banter thread V3

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    #4352
    Christy42
    Registered Users Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭Christy42


    OOnegative wrote: »
    2xSuperbowl Champ
    2xSuperbowl MVP
    57,023 Passing Yds
    366 TD passes

    He’ll make it into Canton.

    Edit: His passing yards currently good enough for 7th All Time in NFL.

    His passing stats will be beaten repeatedly going forward. He was an average QB in a passing era.

    Hall of Fame should some of the best of an era. This is just stuck around for an era.


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    #4353
    raze_them_all_
    Registered Users Posts: 6,744 ✭✭✭raze_them_all_


    Eli shouldn't be a hof on ability there's no real debate on that


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    #4354
    eagle eye
    Registered Users Posts: 37,701 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    Mariah Puny Root wrote:
    Part of me thinks he should be in there, just for those Super Bowls wins alone (as a Pats fan it stands out even more). But 117-117 record, was poor for a number of seasons, failures to reach playoffs..... I don't think he merits it (but I'd only put the best of the best in there). Passing stats? Rivers has better figures, and I don't think he should get in.
    Over 75 of those losses have come since he won his second Superbowl so he was a hall of famer at the time he got his second Superbowl MVP.
    First ballot for me. Giants have been a **** show for years now and that's not on him.
    Daniel Jones is 3-9 as a starter. Tells you all you need to know about that organisation in recent times. Not Eli's fault.


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    #4355
    Christy42
    Registered Users Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭Christy42


    eagle eye wrote: »
    Over 75 of those losses have come since he won his second Superbowl so he was a hall of famer at the time he got his second Superbowl MVP.
    First ballot for me. Giants have been a **** show for years now and that's not on him.
    Daniel Jones is 3-9 as a starter. Tells you all you need to know about that organisation in recent times. Not Eli's fault.
    Daniel Jones doesn't exactly look like the best measuring stick either.


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    #4356
    bruschi
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 4,139 Mod ✭✭✭✭bruschi


    As a barometer on Eli to the Hall of Fame, the other QBs from that same draft class are IMO a clear step above, Rivers and Roethlesberger. Are they shoe ins? Not sure they are, an upper level QB, but not sure they were every considered elite level in the same way Peyton, Brady, Rodgers or Brees from around the same timeline are. If Eli gets in now, it will open it up to the up and coming QBs as a low level of acceptance. Is Eli better than Matt Stafford? Flacco? Wilson? Luck? Ryan? And more besides.

    As for Superbowl MVPs, there have been 4 or 5 receivers who have won superbowl MVPs who wont be anywhere near consideration for HOF. Even winning the superbowl isnt an automatic guarantee. It certainly helps to have one to be considered, but isnt really the set criteria. Elis win record and TD/Int record shows him to be a standard enough QB who had a very good career but wasnt really exceptional.


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    #4357
    eagle eye
    Registered Users Posts: 37,701 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    Christy42 wrote:
    Daniel Jones doesn't exactly look like the best measuring stick either.
    He hasn't had a chance to do anything just like Eli the last number of years. Eli hasn't had an offensive line worth a damn for years. He gets the ball and less than 1.5 seconds later he is sacked. The result of this is trying to get rid of the ball quickly which ends up in incompletions and interceptions.
    Andy Dalton has been in much the same situation for a couple of years now and you hear people saying he isn't good enough. He'll find himself a new team this year and if they have a decent offensive line you'll see him perform to a high level just as Eli would have done with protection.


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    #4358
    Christy42
    Registered Users Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭Christy42


    eagle eye wrote: »
    He hasn't had a chance to do anything just like Eli the last number of years. Eli hasn't had an offensive line worth a damn for years. He gets the ball and less than 1.5 seconds later he is sacked. The result of this is trying to get rid of the ball quickly which ends up in incompletions and interceptions.
    Andy Dalton has been in much the same situation for a couple of years now and you hear people saying he isn't good enough. He'll find himself a new team this year and if they have a decent offensive line you'll see him perform to a high level just as Eli would have done with protection.

    Different standard. I am not arguing for Dalton to be in the hall of fame. Are we really going to stick in every QB who manages to stick with the same team for 10+ seasons?

    Eli was good but not close to generational. I think Eli could have done better on a good team but do you think on any team he would have been called elite?


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    #4359
    jack presley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,687 ✭✭✭✭jack presley


    At least we have 5 years to argue about it.


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    #4360
    boccy23
    Registered Users Posts: 2,940 ✭✭✭boccy23


    Phil Simms isn't in the Hall.


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    #4361
    BizzyC
    Registered Users Posts: 3,010 ✭✭✭BizzyC


    OOnegative wrote: »
    2xSuperbowl Champ
    2xSuperbowl MVP
    57,023 Passing Yds
    366 TD passes

    He’ll make it into Canton.

    Edit: His passing yards currently good enough for 7th All Time in NFL.

    Come 5 years time he'll be 11th or 12th on the list...same with his passing TD count.
    Big Ben, Rodgers, Ryan, Stafford and Wilson are all in range to surpass him in that time (taking into account Ben may only play 1 more year)...

    If it wasn't for 2 rings, he wouldn't be in the discussion IMO.
    Statistically he hasn't been good enough, and you cant point to a single season during his career where he had a case for being called the best QB in the league for that year.

    A guy who was never one of the best in the league in a single season can't be considered one of the best of all time...


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    #4362
    Realt Dearg Sec
    Registered Users Posts: 10,834 ✭✭✭✭Realt Dearg Sec


    eagle eye wrote: »
    He hasn't had a chance to do anything just like Eli the last number of years. Eli hasn't had an offensive line worth a damn for years. He gets the ball and less than 1.5 seconds later he is sacked. The result of this is trying to get rid of the ball quickly which ends up in incompletions and interceptions.
    Andy Dalton has been in much the same situation for a couple of years now and you hear people saying he isn't good enough. He'll find himself a new team this year and if they have a decent offensive line you'll see him perform to a high level just as Eli would have done with protection.

    Just on Dalton, there are rumors of him to Chicago. If so that would be a hard no on the decent offensive line, unless some major changes are effected through the draft.


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    #4363
    eagle eye
    Registered Users Posts: 37,701 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    Christy42 wrote: »
    Different standard. I am not arguing for Dalton to be in the hall of fame. Are we really going to stick in every QB who manages to stick with the same team for 10+ seasons?

    Eli was good but not close to generational. I think Eli could have done better on a good team but do you think on any team he would have been called elite?
    I'm arguing that using his win/loss record is unfair because that has more to do with coaches doing a bad job, having bad personnel and players.
    I just used Andy Dalton as a comparison due to offensive line issues.


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    #4364
    eagle eye
    Registered Users Posts: 37,701 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »
    Just on Dalton, there are rumors of him to Chicago. If so that would be a hard no on the decent offensive line, unless some major changes are effected through the draft.

    Well it's hard to know exactly how good/bad the Bears offensive line is if a QB stands in the pocket because that hasn't happened for a couple of years.

    I'd like to see him go to Tampa Bay, feel he'd do very well there.


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    #4365
    Realt Dearg Sec
    Registered Users Posts: 10,834 ✭✭✭✭Realt Dearg Sec


    eagle eye wrote: »
    Well it's hard to know exactly how good/bad the Bears offensive line is if a QB stands in the pocket because that hasn't happened for a couple of years.

    I'd like to see him go to Tampa Bay, feel he'd do very well there.

    I like Dalton too, think he's solid if unspectacular.

    But as to our o line, definitely disagree, Leno and Massie were turnstiles this year, Whitehair was good but just can't snap the ball correctly, Kyle Long was a shadow of his former self. Think it made Trubisky look (even) worse than he actually is.


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    #4366
    Christy42
    Registered Users Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭Christy42


    eagle eye wrote: »
    I'm arguing that using his win/loss record is unfair because that has more to do with coaches doing a bad job, having bad personnel and players.
    I just used Andy Dalton as a comparison due to offensive line issues.

    I mean I would say the same for the superbowls. I would agree Manning is probably better than he has shown recently due to the team but I need more than that for the HoF.

    I don't have enough from him to feel like he should be in the HOF without also feeling most long term QBs should go in for the same reason


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    #4367
    Big Pussy Bonpensiero
    Registered Users Posts: 7,776 ✭✭✭Big Pussy Bonpensiero


    For me HoF is an individual accolade, and individually Eli was never elite. Not a HoFer but expect him to make it due to his 2 SBs.


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    #4368
    rebelyell99
    Registered Users Posts: 394 ✭✭rebelyell99


    I dont think he should be in the HOF ,if he only won one SB I dont think there would really be a conversation.Its also his longevity that gives him a chance.Phillp rivers wont make it into the hall but I think he was a better QB than Eli.Manning was a good not a great QB,just because he won two superbowls shouldn't qualify him,he has been poor enough since he won the superbowl aswell but the fact that he is a manning gives him a chance.


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    #4369
    Foxtrol
    Registered Users Posts: 11,048 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    Given how the HOF is going, between with his name and likely media appearances post retirement, he'll get in relatively quickly, even though on merit he doesn't deserve it.

    It will always bemuse me at how US sports media and fans judge players but it surprises me even more so how it filters through and gets parroted by many non-US fans of the sport. If you asked the same fans about assessing a soccer or rugby player they would rarely base their argument on team trophies, man of the match awards in finals, or stats that are largely built on career longevity than consistent years of being top in those stats.

    Fair play to him though, he bled the most money ever earned by a QB (quarter of a billion dollars) out of the Giants over based on mostly only above average QB play. I'm sure the Giants would do it all again to get another 2 Super Bowls.


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    #4370
    Shedite27
    Registered Users Posts: 9,374 ✭✭✭Shedite27


    22 of 35 players to have won Superbowl MVP and are HOF eligible are in Canton. Not a hope a 2 time MVP winner isn't going


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    #4371
    brinty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,333 ✭✭✭brinty


    Shedite27 wrote:
    22 of 35 players to have won Superbowl MVP and are HOF eligible are in Canton. Not a hope a 2 time MVP winner isn't going

    An all decade player with 2 Superbowl victories who was undrafted from the 70's still can't get into the HoF
    Eli ain't close to an all decade player so he's not HoF in any way shape or form
    How often is the Superbowl MVP the winning QB, so I wouldn't be using that as a yard sick to put him in either


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    #4372
    StringerBell
    Registered Users Posts: 14,051 ✭✭✭✭StringerBell


    All in all I don't think Eli should be in the hall of fame, but I think it's going to be a close one. He may get in on name and those Superbowls alone like and I can see the case to be made for him I just think the case against is stronger.

    Very good career, yes. One of greats? No imo

    "People say ‘go with the flow’ but do you know what goes with the flow? Dead fish."



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    #4373
    MileHighGuy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,700 ✭✭✭MileHighGuy


    brinty wrote:
    An all decade player with 2 Superbowl victories who was undrafted from the 70's still can't get into the HoF

    Who's that?

    Jim Plunkett?


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    #4374
    MileHighGuy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,700 ✭✭✭MileHighGuy


    I agree E Manning has been a largely run of the mill QB, with good longevity, a couple of outstanding years I think, statistically (although I think we are all still adjusting to the pre 2001 era stats)

    .... but the manner of those Super Bowl wins, and who they were against, will send him to the hall I'm sure. Maybe not 1st ballot, but if Kurt Warner is in, so is Eli.


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    #4375
    Itssoeasy
    Registered Users Posts: 39,627 ✭✭✭✭Itssoeasy


    I think Eli will get into the HOF but if I was the manning family I wouldn't be planning for 2025 as he's not a first ballot(his brother is) HOFer but I don't like how much weight SB wins mean for some players and not others but the voters for the HOF semingly do put weight in them so that's the way it is.

    I agree that the honour itself is an individual one but American football is a team sport and none of the 330 people in canton got their soley on their own.


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    #4376
    Foxtrol
    Registered Users Posts: 11,048 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    OOnegative wrote: »
    2xSuperbowl Champ
    2xSuperbowl MVP
    57,023 Passing Yds
    366 TD passes

    He’ll make it into Canton.

    Edit: His passing yards currently good enough for 7th All Time in NFL.

    That passing yards stat isn't as impressive once you realise he is 6th all time in pass attempts.

    Eli has more seasons where he led the league in interceptions than seasons where he led his team to a playoff win.

    He has more seasons where he was top 10 in pick sixes than he had top 10 in passing yards.

    He has more seasons where he was top 10 in interceptions than he had top 10 in TD passes.

    He'll make it to Canton but if the entry process was objective he wouldn't.


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    #4377
    MileHighGuy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,700 ✭✭✭MileHighGuy


    Foxtrol wrote:
    He'll make it to Canton but if the entry process was objective he wouldn't.

    I can't see anyone lobbying strongly for him, but the looking at stats thing is overdone. You don't get to start 15+ years in the league by being a bad QB.... Maybe the interceptions were a result of chasing games, who knows, maybe they were warrented interceptions...

    He had 2 legendary runs in the playoffs and beat the 16-0 patriots with a miracle play. (he did it another time with another miracle) he'll get in....

    I never found myself tuning in to watch Eli play QB though.... That's the eye test I don't think he passes.


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    #4378
    raze_them_all_
    Registered Users Posts: 6,744 ✭✭✭raze_them_all_


    MileHighGuy wrote: »
    I can't see anyone lobbying strongly for him, but the looking at stats thing is overdone. You don't get to start 15+ years in the league by being a bad QB.... Maybe the interceptions were a result of chasing games, who knows, maybe they were warrented interceptions...

    He had 2 legendary runs in the playoffs and beat the 16-0 patriots with a miracle play. (he did it another time with another miracle) he'll get in....

    I never found myself tuning in to watch Eli play QB though.... That's the eye test I don't think he passes.
    Nobody saying he was bad, he was bang on average


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    #4379
    j8wk2feszrnpao
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,438 ✭✭✭j8wk2feszrnpao


    raze_them_all_ wrote: »
    Nobody saying he was bad, he was bang on average
    He’d get my vote for the Hall of Good, just not Great.


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    #4380
    MileHighGuy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,700 ✭✭✭MileHighGuy


    raze_them_all_ wrote:
    Nobody saying he was bad, he was bang on average


    Totally agree, bang on average.... And the 2 super bowls with the miracle plays will tip the balance imo.


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    #4381
    el Fenomeno
    Registered Users Posts: 3,158 ✭✭✭el Fenomeno


    I wouldn't be so quick to put down Eli.

    Sure, he was never the best in the league and was rarely if eve considered one of the top 5 QBs either. Though that's difficult given for most of his career Brady, Manning and Brees permanently occupied 3 of those top 5 spots.

    Super Bowl wins aside, he was an NFL starter for near 15 years, put up over 55k passing yards and took his team to the playoffs 6 times. How many players in NFL history can say they've done the same?

    I don't think the Hall of Fame should purely be for the elite, best of the best players. There has to be an allowance for players who were never the best, but had exceptional careers and Eli is one of the slam dunk fits for the latter category.


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