General Election and Government Formation Megathread (see post #1)

feargale · 23-01-2020 01:47AM

sabat wrote: »

Wait a minute, how come the court ruled that this only applies to males and females when the rest of the state apparatus insists that myriad genders exist? Should the largest parties not be required to field 2 or 3 transgender/sexual/genderqueer/whatever candidates?

Bravo sabat! The moral of the story is that legislators should look before they leap.

Once you deviate from the main road you can find yourself walking through a field of nettles.

feargale · 23-01-2020 01:56AM

L1011 wrote: »

This ensure that Renua can't somehow get state funding again next time, thankfully - probably couldn't get to 30% women if they ran every female member of the party!

That's all very well but these things can come back to bite you. I'm no lover of Renua either, but we can all be fair to those whose views we share. Being fair to those we disagree with - that is the acid test of a democrat.

Rodin · 23-01-2020 01:58AM

This quota, like all quotas is wrong.

Should there also be a homosexual, transgender, Polish, Chinese, black quota to make sure the Dail/candidates are "representative" ? Whatever that means.

Lyan · 23-01-2020 02:08AM

Rodin wrote: »

This quota, like all quotas is wrong.

Should there also be a homosexual, transgender, Polish, Chinese, black quota to make sure the Dail/candidates are "representative" ? Whatever that means.

I will be very surprised if ethicity qoutas don't begin to crop up later in the decade.

FishOnABike · 23-01-2020 03:34AM

Lyan wrote: »

I will be very surprised if ethicity qoutas don't begin to crop up later in the decade.

Well if there are quotas for one of the protected groups in the Equal Status Act it's only logical that it is discriminatory if there is not also a comparable quota for each of the other eight protected groups.

AllForIt · 23-01-2020 04:48AM

L1011 wrote: »

This ensure that Renua can't somehow get state funding again next time, thankfully - probably couldn't get to 30% women if they ran every female member of the party!

This is an excellent argument against quotas.

Justin Credible Darts · 23-01-2020 05:41AM

I had the misfortune to hear an idiot in a pub the other night claim he was a "fine gael man for life".

Before people start getting upset, this is not an attack on just fine gael , as he could have said any party, it is to do with the mindset.

Surely the idea of voting is to vote for who you think is the best, but to claim you are for life is just downright retarded.
Its like a football supporter who supports man utd claiming he is a fan for life, it does not mean they are the best team. Voting for a party out of allegiance and heart instead of mind just seems ridiculous.

Personally I have changed parties over the years to whatever I thought was best at the time, now I do not even vote, its like that saying, don't vote you will only encourage the b@stards.

They are all bloody useless

splinter65 · 23-01-2020 06:09AM

Someone having a different mindset to you doesn’t make them an idiot.
You not being able to accept or understand that others have a different mindset to you means that it is, in reality, you that is the idiot.

tritriagain · 23-01-2020 07:51AM

splinter65 wrote: »

Someone having a different mindset to you doesn’t make them an idiot.
You not being able to accept or understand that others have a different mindset to you means that it is, in reality, you that is the idiot.

Well done. Becoming all too common on boards(and in real life). Just because someone doesn't agree with you that does not make them a fool . They may well be but not just because they have different views.

VinLieger · 23-01-2020 09:04AM

splinter65 wrote: »

Someone having a different mindset to you doesn’t make them an idiot.
You not being able to accept or understand that others have a different mindset to you means that it is, in reality, you that is the idiot.

Lol did you really just contradict and call yourself an idiot in 2 sentences

is_that_so · 23-01-2020 09:32AM

feargale wrote: »

Oh we all know the aim of it. In the middle years of the state, when the statistic had more relevance than now, Protestants were proportionately under-represented in the Dàil but it was never suggested that the system should be manipulated to balance that. Ditto today re Travellers, Immigrants etc.. And more importantly, what about the homeless who never had a voice in the Dàil? Should public monies be used to ensure that every interest which is not proportionately favoured by the electorate gets a leg up? No, it won't happen, but the squeaky wheel gets the oil.
It would be interesting to see what proportion of party membership is female. And before we hear about domestic duties militating against the numbers, it might be even more interesting to see in isolation those numbers in relation to single, childless people. I am not aware of any complaints against any party of gender discrimination when it comes to nominations.
I have often given no.1 to a female candidate. This is not about a gender war. It is about maintaining a level playing field. You don't tilt the playing field just because the almighty Dubs are playing Leitrim. Some decades ago smartass governments misused public money to sway voters in referendums, until the practice was successfully challenged in the courts. In that instance the courts didn't need to rely on an express provision in the constitution. I recall at the time an acquaintance defending that abuse on the grounds that a particular issue was of such importance that a yes vote was an imperative. In other words "we know better than the slobs who will be voting."

I can't help feeling there is a woman issue at work in this. It also seems to suggest that if a party doesn't have enough female members the selection just reflects that. Sounds like a gentleman's club. In theory parties don't have to bother with quotas but they will get no State funding if they don't.

article 16
3° no law shall be enacted placing any citizen
under disability or incapacity for membership of
dáil Éireann on the ground of sex or
disqualifying any citizen or other person from
voting at an election for members of dáil Éireann
on that ground.

That just says that they can't be prevented from being Dail members and it really works both ways. Nobody is precluded anyway as the selection process in parties presents them for election. Parties have rules and that's what the quotas focus on. These parties recognise the overall aim of the quotas, which is addressing the gender imbalance in politics.

is_that_so · 23-01-2020 09:33AM

Lyan wrote: »

I will be very surprised if ethicity quotas don't begin to crop up later in the decade.

Why would they be? They are not used in other political systems.

splinter65 · 23-01-2020 09:56AM

VinLieger wrote: »

Lol did you really just contradict and call yourself an idiot in 2 sentences

You’ll have to point out the contradiction though. Let’s have it now.

johnnyskeleton · 23-01-2020 10:03AM

Mod note:

Regrettably, posting early in the morning does not exempt you from the rules of the charter. Either of you!

FishOnABike · 23-01-2020 10:27AM

is_that_so wrote: »

Why would they be? They are not used in other political systems.

Because they are protected under the same Equal Status Act as the gender and the other eight categories. If quotas are all about equality then they should be about equality for all.

is_that_so · 23-01-2020 10:33AM

FishOnABike wrote: »

Because they are protected under the same Equal Status Act as the gender and the other eight categories. If quotas are all about equality then they should be about equality for all.

They are not about equality, even where they are used it's under for 50% women. They are a tried and tested method of redressing the gender imbalance in politics.

Pete_Cavan · 23-01-2020 02:25PM

keane2097 wrote: »

FG's approach seems to be identical to SF's, except that FG are calling the state pension you get between 65 & 67 a 'transition payment' instead of a 'pension payment'. Actually setting up the bureaucracy around this definitely-not-a-pension payment would probably be more expensive than just giving the pension at 65.

FF's original plan was the only sensible one.

Isn't the FG "transition payment" only for those forced to retire at 65 but no longer entitled to a pension at 65? FG plan is for those caught in this trap, which would be a limited number of people, but would still save the state money every year. SF want to eliminate the trap but it will have the effect of requiring additional state pension payments to many more people every year and basically ignores the coming pension funding problem.

IAmTheReign · 23-01-2020 02:36PM

scheister wrote: »

Labours housing policies include a similar SSIA type idea run via An Post

For every €4 you save they will give €1 up to 1,500 per year. Term from 3-5 years

They also want to look at a rent to buy scheme. Cant find much information on this.

What kind of daft idea is that! People need help getting mortgages now, not in 3 to 5 years time. Telling people they need to spend at least another 3 years renting in order to get any help and the max they'll get then is 4 and a half grand won't win them any votes.

An Ciarraioch · 23-01-2020 02:42PM

TG4 have tweeted to promote their Donegal poll tonight - as we predicted, they don't see Casey in the running:

https://twitter.com/NuachtTG4/status/1220339722914013185

BarryD2 · 23-01-2020 04:29PM

droidus wrote: »

Primarily though they have one huge thing in their favour, and I think a significant cohort of voters recognise this - they are the only party that hasnt completely f**ked over the country.

What?? Where have you been since the 1970s? The current Sinn Féin has it's roots as the political wing of the armed struggle that waged war up north for a couple of decades...........

Now one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist and all that - but whatever way you look at it, the six counties was rightly f**ked over.

Time will heal these things if allowed. Let SF show us they can get on with their neighbours peacefully for the next generation, govern NI sensibly and then people will consider more carefully. However underneath it all, don't be surprised to find that ultimately they'll just be another flavour of FF/FG and all their various independent spin offs.

FrancieBrady · 23-01-2020 04:35PM

BarryD2 wrote: »

What?? Where have you been since the 1970s? The current Sinn Féin has it's roots as the political wing of the armed struggle that waged war up north for a couple of decades...........

Now one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist and all that - but whatever way you look at it, the six counties was rightly f**ked over.

Time will heal these things if allowed. Let SF show us they can get on with their neighbours peacefully for the next generation, govern NI sensibly and then people will consider more carefully. However underneath it all, don't be surprised to find that ultimately they'll just be another flavour of FF/FG and all their various independent spin offs.

The arrogance to suggest a mandate of almost 20% has to 'show' you anything.

No matter how often that arrogance has it's nose rubbed in it, it keeps appearing.

droidus · 23-01-2020 04:54PM

BarryD2 wrote: »

What?? Where have you been since the 1970s? The current Sinn Féin has it's roots as the political wing of the armed struggle that waged war up north for a couple of decades...........

Now one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist and all that - but whatever way you look at it, the six counties was rightly f**ked over.

Time will heal these things if allowed. Let SF show us they can get on with their neighbours peacefully for the next generation, govern NI sensibly and then people will consider more carefully. However underneath it all, don't be surprised to find that ultimately they'll just be another flavour of FF/FG and all their various independent spin offs.

Im not a nationalist, but the narrative that solely blames Sinn Fein for the troubles, whilst ignoring the role of history, a ruthless British security and military apparatus, radical Unionism, and the mishandling and ineptitude of various Irish governments is so catastrophically ignorant that it barely warrants a response - thats without mentioning that nearly all the major parties in this country have their roots in a 'terrorist' armed struggle, not to mention fascism in one case...

BonnieSituation · 23-01-2020 04:58PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The arrogance to suggest a mandate of almost 20% has to 'show' you anything.

No matter how often that arrogance has it's nose rubbed in it, it keeps appearing.

The arrogance to think that SF are okay for government in the north, but need to be rehabilitated in the south is what always galls me. And I say this as you know as a wee Blue Shirt.

Election day in that booth will be quite conflicting for a lot of us.

Water John · 23-01-2020 05:03PM

There were two ways to challenge the status quo in NI and all its faults and evil. One was by civil disobedience and international pressure, the other was the gun.
That was a choice.

droidus · 23-01-2020 05:11PM

As we know, the results of peaceful protest were dead children in the streets. The problem with the IRA was not armed resistance to a murderous colonial state, but the escalation into acts of terror against civilian targets.

timmyntc · 23-01-2020 05:12PM

Water John wrote: »

There were two ways to challenge the status quo in NI and all its faults and evil. One was by civil disobedience and international pressure, the other was the gun.
That was a choice.

:rolleyes: Historical revisionism at its finest.
The civil rights movement in the north was peaceful - but when you have loyalist gangs with the backing of the govt beating and killing people indiscriminately, do you really think it's not justified to defend oneself with 'the gun?'

KevRossi · 23-01-2020 05:38PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The arrogance to suggest a mandate of almost 20% has to 'show' you anything.

No matter how often that arrogance has it's nose rubbed in it, it keeps appearing.

SF have nowhere near 20% in any election in the ROI, so they don't have that mandate. In the last elections in each category they got:

9.5% in 2019 Locals
11.9% in 2019 Europeans
6.4% in 2018 Presidential
13.8% in 2016 General Election

Chips Lovell · 23-01-2020 05:38PM

Mod Note

Topic of this thread is Irish general election polls and stats. etc. If you wish to discuss the origins of the Troubles, it wold be better to start a new thread.

Thanks

blanch152 · 23-01-2020 07:01PM

KevRossi wrote: »

SF have nowhere near 20% in any election in the ROI, so they don't have that mandate. In the last elections in each category they got:

9.5% in 2019 Locals
11.9% in 2019 Europeans
6.4% in 2018 Presidential
13.8% in 2016 General Election

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_European_Parliament_election_in_Ireland

To be fair to Francie, Sinn Fein did get 19.5% in the European elections in 2014 (though only 15.4% in the local elections on the same day), which is close enough to the 20% he mentioned. However, they have been on a downward trajectory ever since.

blanch152 · 23-01-2020 07:02PM

IAmTheReign wrote: »

What kind of daft idea is that! People need help getting mortgages now, not in 3 to 5 years time. Telling people they need to spend at least another 3 years renting in order to get any help and the max they'll get then is 4 and a half grand won't win them any votes.

Varadkar demolished the SSIA schemes in the debate last night, it could well be back to the drawing board for FF and Labour.

General Election and Government Formation Megathread (see post #1)

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