General Election and Government Formation Megathread (see post #1)

I see Noel Rock is running for TD with a Councillors manifesto. A plan for Santry. I think this is a massive problem in Ireland. People being elected to the Dail for promises to their locality that should actually be the main work of councilors not TDs. If he makes it to my door it'll be interesting to hear what his views on health, education, policing are.

For me it'll be Shorthall, Conroy and then I have no idea. Certainly not FF/FG nor Ellis. The National Party are running here too so I'll be sure to have my pitchfork by the door to chase them off.

Dytalus wrote: »

Have....have you seen the most recent poll?

I don't like SF. I think their policies are reckless at best. But our national, publically funded broadcaster should not be playing favourites. I'm fine with a rule of "must poll above 5/10%", but simply deciding only FF/FG are worth having on TV?

We already have a very serious problem in this country with people treating our elections like we've a two-party system because oly FF/FG are "worth voting for". We don't need RTE ignoring more than half the electorate to further entrench the mindset.

It's no different to anywhere else. Most countries have a form of two party system, except they tend to divide right and left. It will be one or the other because no other party has convinced the electorate otherwise. It's only one debate BTW, not all of them.

is_that_so wrote: »

It's no different to anywhere else. Most countries have a form of two party system, except they tend to divide right and left.

Any country I know of with de facto two-party systems (and are developed countries, to properly equivocate with us) are not countries I would want to model our political environment after. Australia, America, the UK all have revolting political problems.

"Everyone else does it" is not an acceptable answer.

is_that_so wrote: »

It will be one or the other because no other party has convinced the electorate otherwise.

While I don't disagree (though I think a not-insignificant contributor is the old 'my father voted FF, and his father, and his father, and so on' coupled with political apathy rather than anything else), that doesn't excuse a publically funded broadcaster from choosing sides. More than 50% of the electorate support neither of the major parties. That should be enough to show why selectively choosing only FF and FG leaders for the debate is flawed.

is_that_so wrote: »

It's only one debate BTW, not all of them.

Irrelevant. None of the debates should be exclusionary of the other parties like this. Particularly the one that recently polled only 2% lower than Fine Gael - and considering it's a leaders debate, a party whose leader polled higher than Fianna Fáil's.

droidus wrote: »

Im not a shinner, but I find the hate for them expressed here deeply bemusing. Their anti-austerity budgets were all pretty good and the anti-cyclical Keynesian approach has been vindicated countless times in research and in the experiences of other countries.

Most of the hate for Sinn Féin is rooted in their terrorist past, and more contemporaneously their fantasy budgets that proposed all manner of tax cuts and expenditure increases that were clearly at odds with one another. But they know they'll never have to deliver on it or defend it, so they can say whatever they think will get votes.

They're playing the long game and they will continue to do so for another 20 years until all the old terrorists are dead and the people who remember them start to die too.

Dytalus wrote: »

Any country I know of with de facto two-party systems (and are developed countries, to properly equivocate with us) are not countries I would want to model our political environment after. Australia, America, the UK all have revolting political problems.

"Everyone else does it" is not an acceptable answer.


While I don't disagree (though I think a not-insignificant contributor is the old 'my father voted FF, and his father, and his father, and so on' coupled with political apathy rather than anything else), that doesn't excuse a publically funded broadcaster from choosing sides. More than 50% of the electorate support neither of the major parties. That should be enough to show why selectively choosing only FF and FG leaders for the debate is flawed.

Actually nearly 60% do based on the last election, a real poll. One could also argue that the rest have even more right to be there, but they'll get another night as will all the parties.

Irrelevant. None of the debates should be exclusionary of the other parties like this. Particularly the one that recently polled only 2% lower than Fine Gael - and considering it's a leaders debate, a party whose leader polled higher than Fianna Fáil's.

Well, pen your outraged email to RTE so! It's their call as is the Virgin one. I am not a fan of multiple candidates on stage. It's always unsatisfactory, very stilted and often little more than a shouting match. Even sitting down last night some of them couldn't behave.
I can see their reasoning, i.e. apparently giving voters a chance to separate the two of them. I can also see an unspoken reason, their mutual visceral dislike for SF and the pretty fair possibility it would turn into a brutal slanging match.

droidus wrote: »

Im not a shinner, but I find the hate for them expressed here deeply bemusing. Their anti-austerity budgets were all pretty good and the anti-cyclical Keynesian approach has been vindicated countless times in research and in the experiences of other countries.

Primarily though they have one huge thing in their favour, and I think a significant cohort of voters recognise this - they are the only party that hasnt completely f**ked over the country.

Because they've always headed for the opposition benches. If a party really wants to prove itself to voters it has to take on the challenges of government.

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

It had stopped trying to be funny, because Fianna Fáil.

No, it ran for nearly 10 years until 1980. Its time was up.

is_that_so wrote: »

I'd say national interest here means your interest! That voting patterns don't suit you or that you dislike certain parties getting a lot of votes is no evidence of a swamp.

We have a permanent government imo and allocation of resources are wasted on ridiculous things. The cost of government is far too high and far too many vested interests are looked after. This will continue whilst FFG are elected and seen as alternative to each other by the Irish people- again in my opinion.

If an alternative govt was elected it may wake these 2 parties up that they have to change but they are not going to change whilst we keep electing them.

seamus wrote: »

Most of the hate for Sinn Féin is rooted in their terrorist past, and more contemporaneously their fantasy budgets that proposed all manner of tax cuts and expenditure increases that were clearly at odds with one another. But they know they'll never have to deliver on it or defend it, so they can say whatever they think will get votes.

They're playing the long game and they will continue to do so for another 20 years until all the old terrorists are dead and the people who remember them start to die too.

I think there's plenty of fantasy to go around. I seem to remember it bankrupting the country in fact. It's currently decimating our housing sector, public services and environment.

There hasn't been a major longitudinal study like the one in the UK that found 120,000 excess deaths due to austerity, but when you take into account suicides, deaths due to lack of access to healthcare, deprivation & poverty, I think its almost certain that FF/FG policies (with assistance from Lab & the Greens) killed a lot more people than the IRA, whilst also making a small group of other people extremely wealthy, but I guess that's not the kind of terrorism you mean.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Not sure it is RTE's call, is this not gone to court?

RTE are the national broadcaster subject to different codes of behaviour than a private operator like Virgin.

It's by invitation and they weren't invited. They have no absolute right, nor does anyone in comparison to the party political stuff RTE has to show. I believe they are all getting individual interviews as well.

golfball37 wrote: »

We have a permanent government imo and allocation of resources are wasted on ridiculous things. The cost of government is far too high and far too many vested interests are looked after. This will continue whilst FFG are elected and seen as alternative to each other by the Irish people- again in my opinion.

If an alternative govt was elected it may wake these 2 parties up that they have to change but they are not going to change whilst we keep electing them.

You can't blame FF/FG or even SF for who votes for them. You have to convince voters of all of this and the majority of them remain unconvinced by alternatives.

is_that_so wrote: »

Well, pen your outraged email to RTE so! It's their call as is the Virgin one. I am not a fan of multiple candidates on stage. It's always unsatisfactory, very stilted and often little more than a shouting match. Even sitting down last night some of them couldn't behave.

Already did. :P

The Virgin one I am less concerned about (still concerned, but not enough to complain) because Virgin isn't publically funded. While I agree having multiple candidates can be a pain, I also think such debates should be moderated strictly. If someone is answering a question, nobody should be allowed interrupt. It's rude, for one thing, but also makes it hard for candidates/parties to get out their full policies.

"I plan on raising taxes...." "SQUEEZING THE MIDDLE CLASS. Vote for US we will LOWER taxes." And we never get to hear the sentence finish with "on those earning over a million while lowering taxes on those earning the average" or "on multinational corporations". Having multiple leaders on a stage only makes it worse when the moderator isn't doing their job.

is_that_so wrote: »

I can see their reasoning, i.e. apparently giving voters a chance to separate the two of them. I can also see an unspoken reason, their mutual visceral dislike for SF and the pretty fair possibility it would turn into a brutal slanging match.

I can sympathise with the "differentiate between FF and FG". For someone like myself, who is not much of a supporter of either, I don't see enough differences between them to pick one over the other. I'd argue if you need a specific debate to illustrate your differences, then you're either not doing enough to express your policies or your policies aren't actually different.

I also think SF have a tendency to play the hurler in the ditch. And Varadkar has a track record of getting...snarky with SF politicians. Neither of which would be conducive to a civilised debate or informative television. But again, that's why there should be a moderator. And it might help sway voters.

I, for example, refuse to reward attack politics. If you can't criticise your opponent's policies, or suitably win voters over with your own, and you resort to mud slinging and petty squabbling? It's a pretty quick way to lose my vote, and if one person thinks that way you can bet others do too.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The 'people' seem to me to savagely punish parties that go into coalition for the sake of it.

I don't think any party should go in if they don't think they are respected as a 'partner'. And the tradition here with the power swap parties is that they don't.
Which is, by extension, actually not respecting the people's decision.

It's because they promise stupid things or try to get their own way. The Greens, I think, were unlucky in the 2011 meltdown and will be back again. Coalition is compromise and dealing, even sacrificing some policies. If you're not prepared to do that don't pretend you are. Pretending it's not leads to punishment.

PaulieG wrote: »

Can someone tell me please if Leo Varadkar is still Taoiseach right now or is that position currently vacant until the new government is formed? And do all Ministers still hold their positions? Thanks.

He's still Taoiseach until the new Dail elects another person to be Taoiseach. The earliest this can happen will be February 20th when the new (33rd) Dail meets for the first time.