Saracens Salarygate: Automatic Relegation?

thomond2006 · 16-01-2020 10:08pm #1

It's probably worth its own thread by now.

RugbyPass reporting that Saracens could be set for automatic relegation after failing to reduce their salaries in time.

https://amp.rugbypass.com/news/saracens-stand-on-brink-of-automatic-relegation-as-nightmare-season-set-to-continue/?__twitter_impression=true

Now this is Rugbypass who are quite clickbaity so let's see if more media run with this.

molloyjh · 16-01-2020 10:09pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

RugbyPass (I know) reporting that Saracens could be set for automatic relegation after failing to reduce their salaries in time.

https://amp.rugbypass.com/news/saracens-stand-on-brink-of-automatic-relegation-as-nightmare-season-set-to-continue/?__twitter_impression=true

It's RugbyPass who are quite clickbaity so let's see if more media run with this.

Didnt they break the other bits about players being let go etc ahead of time? I wouldnt normally trust them, but they were on the ball then.

bilston · 16-01-2020 10:19pm

If they've broken the cap again this season...which clearly they must have done...then this seems to be the obvious next step.

That being the case they might as well throw everything at Europe.

Imagine Saracens get relegated and the Premiership gets ring fenced...

bilston · 16-01-2020 10:21pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

It's probably worth its own thread by now.

RugbyPass reporting that Saracens could be set for automatic relegation after failing to reduce their salaries in time.

https://amp.rugbypass.com/news/saracens-stand-on-brink-of-automatic-relegation-as-nightmare-season-set-to-continue/?__twitter_impression=true

Now this is Rugbypass who are quite clickbaity so let's see if more media run with this.

Alisdair Eykyn (BT commentator) is tweeting about it this evening.

Squidgy Black · 16-01-2020 10:28pm

Stephen Jones is eerily quiet over the last couple of days other than his tweets slandering the SRU executives.

Squidgy Black · 16-01-2020 10:29pm

bilston wrote: »

Alisdair Eykyn (BT commentator) is tweeting about it this evening.

https://twitter.com/alastaireykyn/status/1217916534955429890?s=19

16-01-2020 10:41pm

Wray did them no favours by showing zero contrition. He obviously is above abiding rules or has convinced himself that everyone is at the same thing.

This would be massive.

molloyjh · 16-01-2020 10:42pm

bilston wrote: »

If they've broken the cap again this season...which clearly they must have done...then this seems to be the obvious next step.

That being the case they might as well throw everything at Europe.

Imagine Saracens get relegated and the Premiership gets ring fenced...

I can't see how they could make a success of it tbh. Players heads couldnt possibly be in it. They'll be focusing on where they'll be playing their rugby next season and the environment in the club itself would be horrendous. People in the admin side etc will be losing their jobs over this. It's a sh!tshow that everyone will want to just get away from ASAP.

Squidgy Black · 16-01-2020 10:42pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Wray did them no favours by showing zero contrition. He obviously is above abiding rules or has convinced himself that everyone is at the same thing.

This would be massive.

Sure he can't be held accountable Venjur, he's not the chairman!!!

molloyjh · 16-01-2020 10:43pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Wray did them no favours by showing zero contrition. He obviously is above abiding rules or has convinced himself that everyone is at the same thing.

This would be massive.

First time flee the sinking ship too.

Spare a thought for Stephen Jones in all of this. A thought consisting mainly of "Bahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!".

thomond2006 · 16-01-2020 10:45pm

molloyjh wrote: »

First time flee the sinking ship too.

Spare a thought for Stephen Jones in all of this. A thought consisting mainly of "Bahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!".

In hindsight Wray's departure suggested that worse was coming.

thomond2006 · 16-01-2020 10:49pm

BBC are using the big "If" word.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/amp/rugby-union/51143657?__twitter_impression=true

Clegg · 16-01-2020 10:51pm

I feel bad for some of the staff at Saracens who will no doubt be losing their jobs over this. But that's where it ends. Their Board and some coaching staff refused to show any contrition until a week ago when things were getting really serious. Remember this from Alex Sanderson.

https://youtu.be/cr08vRue0kg

Squidgy Black · 16-01-2020 10:55pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

BBC are using the big "If" word.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/amp/rugby-union/51143657?__twitter_impression=true

Two important parts to that:

"The bosses of the top-flight clubs met at a Premiership Rugby board meeting in London on Tuesday.

It was decided that unless Saracens could prove their compliance, they would face the unprecedented step of dropping into the second tier."

And then also:

"Furthermore, any money paid as compensation to players for cutting short contracts would also be included in the wage bill."

I think the last part is the most important, stating that even if they did cut players as they said it'll still count for this season.

sydthebeat · 16-01-2020 11:25pm

It's weird.

Ed Griffiths was on with will greenwood last week, and he firmly presented that the position of the rules was that saracens just had to show that they were compliant with the salary cap on June 30th.
So in theory the figure could go over or under during the season, but you had to be below the total at the end of the season.

By that article, either that's not the position of the rules.... Or there is big pressure from the other teams for sarries to show compliance right now.... And somehow that's within the rules as well.

Neil3030 · 16-01-2020 11:40pm

Plot twist - Sarries join the Pro14

Squidgy Black · 16-01-2020 11:42pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

It's weird.

Ed Griffiths was on with will greenwood last week, and he firmly presented that the position of the rules was that saracens just had to show that they were compliant with the salary cap on June 30th.
So in theory the figure could go over or under during the season, but you had to be below the total at the end of the season.

By that article, either that's not the position of the rules.... Or there is big pressure from the other teams for sarries to show compliance right now.... And somehow that's within the rules as well.

The review at the end of June is for showing the spend for the year, it doesn't matter if you offload players right at the end of the season, if you paid their salary for a portion of the season, they go against the cap. Same goes for any payoffs to cut people's contracts. Players are now 7 months into their contracts, so the clubs are pressuring for a review to be done for Saracens to show their books and see where they are now. Depending on the level of spending, there's a good chance they may have breached the £7 million cap already (in terms of they've already spent close to 7 million in wages).

Clubs want actions taken, which is understandable. Sarries haven't made a single change since last season, so they want to force their hand and not allow them to just continue on the same as last season. There's little point in the likes of London Irish or Leicester or even Bath fighting furiously to avoid relegation, and potentially losing players who won't re-sign if they think the club is going to be relegated, if they're just going to let Sarries continue as is and face punishment at the end of the season.

durkadurka · 16-01-2020 11:42pm

Squidgy Black wrote: »

"Furthermore, any money paid as compensation to players for cutting short contracts would also be included in the wage bill."
.

This bit is huge. In normal businesses redundancy payments are considered below the line and not factored into earnings or profit calculations.
So you can run a redundancy programme to lose a load of staff, pay them a fortune to leave but it doesn’t count towards your general profit line because it’s exceptional.

I reckon they thought they could pay a load of guys a lump sum to go early and the payment wouldn’t count towards salary cap. If that door is closed then they need to take some fairly severe action now to hit the cap somehow.
This is going to be very interesting to watch. Because with every passing week they are racking up salary payments.

Dave_The_Sheep · 16-01-2020 11:43pm

I'll believe it when I see it.

If it happens, it'll be glorious, but I really really doubt it.

bilston · 16-01-2020 11:46pm

Neil3030 wrote: »

Plot twist - Sarries join the Pro14

You never know

DelBoy Trotter · 16-01-2020 11:51pm

durkadurka wrote: »

I reckon they thought they could pay a load of guys a lump sum to go early and the payment wouldn’t count towards salary cap. If that door is closed then they need to take some fairly severe action now to hit the cap somehow.

Yeah that’s what I was thinking too.

Only salary’s of players who represented the club in this session count towards the cap. If I’m not mistaken, the ruling was given out right after the World Cup, meaning Saracens international players hadn’t played at that point of the season. If they had stopped some of them playing/let them change club, that could have gone a long way to staying under the salary cap

awec · 16-01-2020 11:51pm

durkadurka wrote: »

This bit is huge. In normal businesses redundancy payments are considered below the line and not factored into earnings or profit calculations.
So you can run a redundancy programme to lose a load of staff, pay them a fortune to leave but it doesn’t count towards your general profit line because it’s exceptional.

I reckon they thought they could pay a load of guys a lump sum to go early and the payment wouldn’t count towards salary cap. If that door is closed then they need to take some fairly severe action now to hit the cap somehow.
This is going to be very interesting to watch. Because with every passing week they are racking up salary payments.

Hard to see how they can avoid having to pay people off.

If that bit is true then their goose is cooked.

Squidgy Black · 16-01-2020 11:53pm

awec wrote: »

Hard to see how they can avoid having to pay people off.

If that bit is true then their goose is cooked.

Technically.... If they stopped paying players and cut their contracts and forced it through the legal route.....

awec · 16-01-2020 11:54pm

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Technically.... If they stopped paying players and cut their contracts and forced it through the legal route.....

They would surely lose any counter-suit from the players?

The money is obviously there to pay them.

DelBoy Trotter · 16-01-2020 11:56pm

awec wrote: »

They would surely lose any counter-suit from the players?

The money is obviously there to pay them.

Agreed. Employment law would back the players, so Saracens would lose out that way

Dave_The_Sheep · 16-01-2020 11:58pm

awec wrote: »

They would surely lose any counter-suit from the players?

The money is obviously there to pay them.

I presume he was more thinking it would take longer than the season to get through the legal case, leaving Saracen's in the clear on the date in June.

No idea if that would be how it would work though.

Squidgy Black · 16-01-2020 11:58pm

awec wrote: »

They would surely lose any counter-suit from the players?

The money is obviously there to pay them.

They'd definitely lose the countersuit plus damages, but I was just thinking of ridiculous ways they could attempt to try and push the payoffs out of their salary spends for the year if they kicked it down the line. And as pointed out they'd be facing other reprimands for breaching employment law.

awec · 17-01-2020 12:01am

I think if they went down that route there's a fair chance that even if they avoided automatic relegation they'd end up relegated anyway. Morale would surely go through the floor.

Bridge93 · 17-01-2020 12:02am

Delighted if it’s true. But it’s strange. How did the PRL expect them to go below the cap in a season? Punished in October after the season began with points and money, then say they must be below the cap by the end of the season or relegation. Yet all salary or redundancies have to count? Seemed like it was impossible for sarries to avoid this if it’s true. Only themselves to blame but a strange way to structure the punishments

DelBoy Trotter · 17-01-2020 12:05am

Bridge93 wrote: »

Delighted if it’s true. But it’s strange. How did the PRL expect them to go below the cap in a season? Punished in October after the season began with points and money, then say they must be below the cap by the end of the season or relegation. Yet all salary or redundancies have to count? Seemed like it was impossible for sarries to avoid this if it’s true. Only themselves to blame but a strange way to structure the punishments

This is my thinking on it seeing as only players who have represented that club this reason count towards the salary cap....

DelBoy Trotter wrote: »

Only salary’s of players who represented the club in this session count towards the cap. If I’m not mistaken, the ruling was given out right after the World Cup, meaning Saracens international players hadn’t played at that point of the season. If they had stopped some of them playing/let them change club, that could have gone a long way to staying under the salary cap

awec · 17-01-2020 12:08am

Bridge93 wrote: »

Delighted if it’s true. But it’s strange. How did the PRL expect them to go below the cap in a season? Punished in October after the season began with points and money, then say they must be below the cap by the end of the season or relegation. Yet all salary or redundancies have to count? Seemed like it was impossible for sarries to avoid this if it’s true. Only themselves to blame but a strange way to structure the punishments

By offloading some players and having other players take salary cuts.

Obviously they weren't able to offload enough players (this would be difficult for higher earners, as they'd need to find a club willing to pay them the same money, and obviously this is hard if you're trying to stay within a cap), and players haven't agreed to wage cuts.

Squidgy Black · 17-01-2020 12:13am

Bridge93 wrote: »

Delighted if it’s true. But it’s strange. How did the PRL expect them to go below the cap in a season? Punished in October after the season began with points and money, then say they must be below the cap by the end of the season or relegation. Yet all salary or redundancies have to count? Seemed like it was impossible for sarries to avoid this if it’s true. Only themselves to blame but a strange way to structure the punishments

The end of season review was in June, there's been ongoing investigations into the club for months, Wray's initial statements were made back last March saying they were completely compliant. Since then there's been no actions made to date to release players or reduce the wage bill for this season. I think the redundancies part is only being brought into play now because they took so long to get on board and realise how deep they were.

From what I've read of the regulations, it doesn't matter if a player doesn't play or not during the season. Unless they're injured, as long as they're available to play they count towards the cap. There's a credit given for players not available due to international windows also.

Bridge93 · 17-01-2020 12:15am

awec wrote: »

By offloading some players and having other players take salary cuts.

Obviously they weren't able to offload enough players (this would be difficult for higher earners, as they'd need to find a club willing to pay them the same money, and obviously this is hard if you're trying to stay within a cap), and players haven't agreed to wage cuts.

My point is the ruling came out during the season. So unless sarries were told pre season and ignored it then all their players were going to be counted this season by the time they were told they needed to offload players for this seasons budget. As was said earlier maybe the lads at the WC should’ve been cut

Guy:Incognito · 17-01-2020 12:15am

Bridge93 wrote: »

Delighted if it’s true. But it’s strange. How did the PRL expect them to go below the cap in a season? Punished in October after the season began with points and money, then say they must be below the cap by the end of the season or relegation. Yet all salary or redundancies have to count? Seemed like it was impossible for sarries to avoid this if it’s true. Only themselves to blame but a strange way to structure the punishments

Theyre expected to obey the cap every season though, not just when caught.

So its their own fault they went in to this season planning to cheat.

Otherwise youre basically giving them this season for free to do what they want.

awec · 17-01-2020 12:18am

Bridge93 wrote: »

My point is the ruling came out during the season. So unless sarries were told pre season and ignored it then all their players were going to be counted this season by the time they were told they needed to offload players for this seasons budget. As was said earlier maybe the lads at the WC should’ve been cut

I think there's a few times in the year when they do a check on salaries. Even cutting player salaries mid season, or offloading players mid-season, could bring you under the cap for that season.

If the wage bill was 10 million for example (made up number), Sarries would be expected to have spent ~5 million half way through the season. If they had spent 7, as long as they only spend 3 in the second half the'd be ok.

I think.

Bridge93 · 17-01-2020 12:18am

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Theyre expected to obey the cap every season though, not just when caught.

So its their own fault they went in to this season planning to cheat.

Absolutely. But the PRL should’ve just relegated them at the start instead of giving them an unattainable target 7 months down the line. Suppose they didn’t want an 11 team league or no risk to teams for performing badly

RobbieRuns · 17-01-2020 12:46am

True ..... relegated, they will throw a lot at winning this years HC now.

molloyjh · 17-01-2020 12:57am

RobbieRuns wrote: »

True ..... relegated, they will throw a lot at winning this years HC now.

The players, coaches and back room staff will need to be motivated to do it. Highly doubt they could be if all of this is true. They'll be too busy worrying where they'll be playing their trade next season.

17-01-2020 1:10am

The big problem for me up to this point was they were clearly still over the cap as they hadn’t cut anyone. So they were using a squad they shouldn’t have to remain up in the premiership and causing another team to get relegated. That is unethical. I dearly hope they premiership gets ring fenced. This is what , their 5/6th season they’ve breached the cap, including the first time they were caught. They obviously don’t care for the rules and abiding by them so it’s bye bye for me.

thomond2006 · 17-01-2020 1:28am

We are left to wonder if this will wind up being the death penalty for the club. Sponsors are going to run a mile.

molloyjh · 17-01-2020 1:32am

https://twitter.com/LauraScott__/status/1217964833653579776?s=19

Looking quite likely now so....

Neil3030 · 17-01-2020 1:38am

We'll need another English team in the Pro14 for the derbies around Xmas time; maybe LI?

(I may be jumping the gun a touch here...)

Dave_The_Sheep · 17-01-2020 2:03am

molloyjh wrote: »

https://twitter.com/LauraScott__/status/1217964833653579776?s=19

Looking quite likely now so....

Looks like it's been deleted.

sydthebeat · 17-01-2020 8:53am

awec wrote: »

I think there's a few times in the year when they do a check on salaries. Even cutting player salaries mid season, or offloading players mid-season, could bring you under the cap for that season.
.

The big problem for sarries doing this mid season is that most of not all other premiership clubs are running at full salary cap already, or can't afford to reach the salary cap in the first place.

That means players can only be offloaded out of England, during the season, which is an incredibly hard thing to do.

prawnsambo · 17-01-2020 9:06am

awec wrote: »

I think there's a few times in the year when they do a check on salaries. Even cutting player salaries mid season, or offloading players mid-season, could bring you under the cap for that season.

If the wage bill was 10 million for example (made up number), Sarries would be expected to have spent ~5 million half way through the season. If they had spent 7, as long as they only spend 3 in the second half the'd be ok.

I think.

From what I'm reading, they were always going to be checked mid-season to ensure that they were going to end the season under the cap. But they clearly hadn't offloaded any players and there was no talk of pay cuts, so the other clubs would be pretty sure they weren't going to be compliant.

The difficulty is that no Premiership club could really take on any players as they would all be up to cap anyway. So their only two options available would be to impose a pay cut or do what Bath has done with Jamie Roberts (also raises questions about Bath btw) and look overseas to get rid of players. Which is also difficult.

THey're having a meeting with players in about half an hour, so looks like pay cuts will be discussed. Estimates say they could be as much as £1.3 million above the cap, so pay cuts will likely have to be high enough.

molloyjh · 17-01-2020 9:15am

Dave_The_Sheep wrote: »

Looks like it's been deleted.

Yeah, they obviously got the wrong end of the stick. The tweet had said that relegation was confirmed and an article on it was to follow.

crisco10 · 17-01-2020 9:16am

Surely when Daly joined it just demonstrate how little Saracens were really trying to reduce their wage bill?

I know contracts were probably signed etc. But still galling to see if you are one of the other clubs.

Squidgy Black · 17-01-2020 9:19am

molloyjh wrote: »

Yeah, they obviously got the wrong end of the stick. The tweet had said that relegation was confirmed and an article on it was to follow.

157VGsN_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium

Someone posted a screenshot of the tweet, I'd imagine they were told to whip it down immediately if it hasn't been officially confirmed by prl yet.

stephen_n · 17-01-2020 9:42am

crisco10 wrote: »

Surely when Daly joined it just demonstrate how little Saracens were really trying to reduce their wage bill?

I know contracts were probably signed etc. But still galling to see if you are one of the other clubs.

That signing was announced this time last year. Before any of this had started.

jr86 · 17-01-2020 9:45am

If they do get relegated - and even if its not automatic - surely morale is only going one way, what would this mean for the likes of Vunipola (x2), Itoje, George, Daly and Farrell? Can other premiership clubs even afford them? Would they go on loan even, a la Mark Wilson (of course provided Sarries make a lot of cuts elsewhere)?

crisco10 · 17-01-2020 9:47am

stephen_n wrote: »

That signing was announced this time last year. Before any of this had started.

I know, (hence my "contracts were signed"), but the optics of it toward all the other clubs are still terrible. At the exact moment they are required to be reducing their bill, they have a World Cup Final starter making their debut.

There seems to be a lot of discretion in PRL, and this would not have helped.

Saracens Salarygate: Automatic Relegation?

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