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Colm O’Rourke’s article today

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    #122
    partyguinness
    Registered Users Posts: 8,207 ✭✭✭partyguinness


    I do not see any sort of professionalism in the GAA ever for two simple reasons:

    - The GAA do not want it and the players have no appetite for it. Simple.

    So we can go around in circles and debate all we want among ourselves.


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    #123
    Dots1982
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,957 ✭✭✭Dots1982


    partyguinness wrote: »
    I do not see any sort of professionalism in the GAA ever for two simple reasons:

    - The GAA do not want it and the players have no appetite for it. Simple.

    So we can go around in circles and debate all we want among ourselves.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/gaa-president-says-new-deal-with-gpa-has-hit-money-roadblock-1.4099793


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    #124
    Pogue eile
    Registered Users Posts: 2,863 ✭✭✭Pogue eile


    RoversCeltic wrote: »
    i think you are over estimating how popular GAA is in Ireland, playing numbers are poor, viewing figures are poor i.e a couple of 100000 for most championship game, the all ireland hurling and football finals combined get lower figures than a big football game

    we have a small population and in our only big city GAA isnt overly popu;ar

    think again

    In a thread that has so many lol posts this has to be the best one :D

    Were you interviewed on O'Connell street once? I think I remember you.


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    #125
    bruschi
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 4,138 Mod ✭✭✭✭bruschi


    I dont think O'rourke is wrong, but I dont see it happening.

    If you were to start from scratch and have a national GAA competition, there is now way the format in place now (set up over 100 years ago) would be what is used for a championship structure. Its the most lobsided structure in terms of county set up and population, provincial set up. It makes little sense from a sporting competition layout to have it the way it currently is.

    Despite all the talk about Tayto crisps and Supermacs, the country is far, far too small demographically to sustain a professional set up for the current structure. 64 fully paid teams. Even allowing for Liam McCarthy only or tier 1 only in football, that is still 26 counties x panels of 30 plus. To have them as fully paid employees just wouldnt be sustainable.

    Talk of the GAA doing nothing is also seriously misguided. I've yet to see any amateur set up in any country that has its grassroots teams with resources such as what we have here. The GAA give massively back to the clubs. Yes there are issues over fixtures and there are certainly problems, but when the vast majority of the money earned goes back to the clubs and their infrastructure, I'm not sure I'd be first in line to be critical of the hierarchy.

    A 10 team competition in both codes is about the extent of what could be sustainable here without detrimental effect to clubs and grants/financial aid. There would be no reason that the county structure could not remain for underage set ups, similar to what still happens in AFL where clubs all stayed but their was a national competition formed with the grassroots clubs feeding into that then. Even at that, that is still 2 clubs more than what is in AFL, in a country that has its own subscription TV network (Foxtel) and 5 separate domestic FTA networks (ABC, SBS, 7, 9, 10), in a country with a population 4 times larger than Ireland. They have far more financial resources available to be able to sustain it, that I dont believe we have here.

    It will never happen though. The GAA is far more than just revenue or professionalism and the historical make up of it is as much a keystone of the organisation as anything else. If it were to happen, there would be many people enraged and disillusioned. however there also would be many people in favour in time and realising that it makes sense. I dont think such a move would kill things, I think it would work in time, however for reasons of historical and cultural identity and lack of financial resources to be able to provide full time professionals, I dont think it will be seen in our lifetime.


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    #126
    Dots1982
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,957 ✭✭✭Dots1982


    bruschi wrote: »
    Despite all the talk about Tayto crisps and Supermacs, the country is far, far too small demographically to sustain a professional set up for the current structure. 64 fully paid teams. Even allowing for Liam McCarthy only or tier 1 only in football, that is still 26 counties x panels of 30 plus. To have them as fully paid employees just wouldnt be sustainable.

    I don’t think anyone saying professionalism is likely has argued it could survive in the Intercounty system.

    It’s known by any informed party and has been acknowledged by the GPA that professionalism = an end to intercounty structure.


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    #127
    partyguinness
    Registered Users Posts: 8,207 ✭✭✭partyguinness


    Rather than professionalism per se perhaps 'appearance' money would be the way to go and a suitable compromise.

    In other words a graded scale for appearances given to players which gets incrementally bigger the further you go into the Championship.

    We all know of certain players and managers over the years given hefty brown envelopes to maintain their interest or was it "expenses" they called it?


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    #128
    Davys Fits
    Registered Users Posts: 504 ✭✭✭Davys Fits


    Stacksofwacks wrote: »
    I think maybe a ten or 12 team football league might work on a professional basis. I don't think hurling is widely played by enough counties to make it a profitable proposition. Go semi pro in the football and leave the hurling strictly amateur for the time being until it gets more widely developed. Another possibility of what might happen eventually is the intercounty players break away(backed by businessmen) and form their own professional league. If this happens and a tv deal is already secured the its game over for amateurism. I don't really want to see it as the world is commercialised enough as it is, but its inevitable really.

    Rubbish. Hurling is the jewel in the crown. You are getting carried away by the hysteria around Dublin and Kerry games and the Dublin media that feeds it. The first thing you need for a professional game is a strong chance of being entertained. Thats surely more important for Football right now than Professionalism.


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    #129
    Dots1982
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,957 ✭✭✭Dots1982


    Davys Fits wrote: »
    Rubbish. Hurling is the jewel in the crown. You are getting carried away by the hysteria around Dublin and Kerry games and the Dublin media that feeds it. The first thing you need for a professional game is a strong chance of being entertained. Thats surely more important for Football right now than Professionalism.

    How would you make Gaelic Football more entertaining?


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    #130
    partyguinness
    Registered Users Posts: 8,207 ✭✭✭partyguinness


    Let's be honest. Hurling is a class game and a genuinely unique sport- even a bad game of hurling is better than most football games.


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    #131
    WesternZulu
    Registered Users Posts: 1,926 ✭✭✭WesternZulu


    Davys Fits wrote: »
    Rubbish. Hurling is the jewel in the crown. You are getting carried away by the hysteria around Dublin and Kerry games and the Dublin media that feeds it. The first thing you need for a professional game is a strong chance of being entertained. Thats surely more important for Football right now than Professionalism.

    Nothing like a hurling snob to derail the debate.

    I've nothing against hurling but too often you can't have a conversation about football without some hurling person coming in pontificating about how it's a better sport. Football is more widely played and attains greater attendances...for those two reasons alone it is more likely than hurling to become professional.


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    #132
    grbear
    Registered Users Posts: 693 ✭✭✭grbear


    Dots1982 wrote: »
    How much money does ladies intercounty football bring in in revenue?

    I've no idea, I'm fairly certain it is increasing though.


    It doesn't affect my basic point that any move to a semi-pro or full time pro model would need to take into account the needs of of hurling, LGFA and camogie even if the latter two would be further away from being sustainable semi-pro teams.

    O'Rourke has mentioned the ideas of semi-pro and redrawing boundaries often enough that I'm sure he had some sort of plan in mind for how it'd actually work. Putting snippets of a plan out in the Independent now and again isn't starting a meaningful conversation. If he wants that to happen maybe he should publish a plan with some detail to digest on a blog or something.


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    #133
    Pogue eile
    Registered Users Posts: 2,863 ✭✭✭Pogue eile


    WesternZulu wrote: »
    Nothing like a hurling snob to derail the debate.

    I've nothing against hurling but too often you can't have a conversation about football without some hurling person coming in pontificating about how it's a better sport. Football is more widely played and attains greater attendances...for those two reasons alone it is more likely than hurling to become professional.

    Not true.

    Last year in the Liam McCarthy there were 29 games with a combined attendance of 680,000 that's an average of just under 23,500 where as the football championship saw 900,000 attend 68 games for an average of just under 13,500 and that figure is even boosted by an AI Final replay.

    The potential for hurling is far greater and has a wider appeal.


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    #134
    Dots1982
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,957 ✭✭✭Dots1982


    Pogue eile wrote: »
    Not true.

    Last year in the Liam McCarthy there were 29 games with a combined attendance of 680,000 that's an average of just under 23,500 where as the football championship saw 900,000 attend 68 games for an average of just under 13,500 and that figure is even boosted by an AI Final replay.

    The potential for hurling is far greater and has a wider appeal.

    Well it was true actually. You counted average attendances. The most telling metric of a game’s popularity is total attendances. Football won this metric by 220,000.


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    #135
    Pogue eile
    Registered Users Posts: 2,863 ✭✭✭Pogue eile


    Dots1982 wrote: »
    Well it was true actually. You counted average attendances. The most telling metric of a game’s popularity is total attendances. Football won this metric by 220,000.

    In a long list of mistruths that you have provided in this thread, this really takes the biscuit. Plesae dont consider a career in marketing :D


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    #136
    Dots1982
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,957 ✭✭✭Dots1982


    Pogue eile wrote: »
    In a long list of mistruths that you have provided in this thread, this really takes the biscuit. Plesae dont consider a career in marketing :D

    So the most popular movie in a year is the one that had the least amount of empty seats in the cinema not the one that actually attracted the most people?


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    #137
    Pogue eile
    Registered Users Posts: 2,863 ✭✭✭Pogue eile


    Dots1982 wrote: »
    So the most popular movie in a year is the one that had the least amount of empty seats in the cinema not the one that actually attracted the most people?

    Between Tayto's and Movies now I suggest you have a little lie down for yourself, you have tied yourself up in so many knots in this thread I genuinely think that you have forgotten what the thread is actually about.

    I really shouldnt bother but I'll try and explain it to you in simple terms ; if football and hurling were to go semi pro there would be the same number of games in each competition one can safely assume. Hurling has a higher average of attendees at their championship games as it stands. A semi pro format with 'regional teams' would also open up hurling to a far wide audience than it currently holds due to its current exclusiveness at the top level. When you then further consider that hurling has a far greater potential to attract TV audiences outside of Ireland due to its uniqeness then the claim that it is far more likely for football to go semi pro is well wide of the mark.

    Logic of course would dictate that if it happensd in one code then it will also happen in the other, but we seemed to be past logic at this point.


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    #138
    Dots1982
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,957 ✭✭✭Dots1982


    Pogue eile wrote: »
    Between Tayto's and Movies now I suggest you have a little lie down for yourself, you have tied yourself up in so many knots in this thread I genuinely think that you have forgotten what the thread is actually about.

    I really shouldnt bother but I'll try and explain it to you in simple terms ; if football and hurling were to go semi pro there would be the same number of games in each competition one can safely assume. Hurling has a higher average of attendees at their championship games as it stands. A semi pro format with 'regional teams' would also open up hurling to a far wide audience than it currently holds due to its current exclusiveness at the top level. When you then further consider that hurling has a far greater potential to attract TV audiences outside of Ireland due to its uniqeness then the claim that it is far more likely for football to go semi pro is well wide of the mark.

    Logic of course would dictate that if it happensd in one code then it will also happen in the other, but we seemed to be past logic at this point.

    You really shouldn’t have bothered with the long explanation because I didn’t read it.

    To anyone with any cop on, the more popular sport is the one that attracts the biggest number of people attending and tv audiences. Now please accept that or just don’t reply anymore.


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    #139
    Pogue eile
    Registered Users Posts: 2,863 ✭✭✭Pogue eile


    Dots1982 wrote: »
    You really shouldn’t have bothered with the long explanation because I didn’t read it.

    To anyone with any cop on, the more popular sport is the one that attracts the biggest number of people attending and tv audiences. Now please accept that or just don’t reply anymore.

    We are talking about potential, it's really a simple concept!

    And I know you read it, you probably had to read some of the bigger words a few times, but I know you read it.


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    #140
    Dots1982
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,957 ✭✭✭Dots1982


    Pogue eile wrote: »
    We are talking about potential, it's really a simple concept!

    And I know you read it, you probably had to read some of the bigger words a few times, but I know you read it.

    I’m not talking about potential, no one else was, only you are.

    I’m talking about you told a person they were wrong saying Gaelic Football was more popular because hurling had a higher average attendance. And that is more important than Gaelic football attracting 220,000 more people to stadiums last year.


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    #141
    Pogue eile
    Registered Users Posts: 2,863 ✭✭✭Pogue eile


    Dots1982 wrote: »
    I’m not talking about potential, no one else was, only you are.

    I’m talking about you told a person they were wrong saying Gaelic Football was more popular because hurling had a higher average attendance. And that is more important than Gaelic football attracting 220,000 more people to stadiums last year.

    Exactly, you have become so entrenched that you have forgotten what the thread is about.


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    #142
    WesternZulu
    Registered Users Posts: 1,926 ✭✭✭WesternZulu


    Pogue eile wrote: »
    We are talking about potential, it's really a simple concept!

    And I know you read it, you probably had to read some of the bigger words a few times, but I know you read it.

    Hurling must have an awful lot of potential if it's to even get to parity with football in terms of playing numbers and attendances.

    Only two provinces effectively play the game!


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    #143
    Dots1982
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,957 ✭✭✭Dots1982


    Pogue eile wrote: »
    Exactly, you have become so entrenched that you have forgotten what the thread is about.

    Entrenched in what? What are you talking about?

    You replied telling someone they were wrong when they clearly weren’t. That’s all that’s happening here.


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    #144
    Davys Fits
    Registered Users Posts: 504 ✭✭✭Davys Fits


    WesternZulu wrote: »
    Nothing like a hurling snob to derail the debate.

    I've nothing against hurling but too often you can't have a conversation about football without some hurling person coming in pontificating about how it's a better sport. Football is more widely played and attains greater attendances...for those two reasons alone it is more likely than hurling to become professional.

    Really? The thread and topic is about the Gaa. Maybe you are the snob in thinking that primarily means football.


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    #145
    Pogue eile
    Registered Users Posts: 2,863 ✭✭✭Pogue eile


    WesternZulu wrote: »
    Hurling must have an awful lot of potential if it's to even get to parity with football in terms of playing numbers and attendances.

    Only two provinces effectively play the game!

    Based on last year attendances then no, it would have to increase it's attendances by 20% and considering they played less that half the number of games, I would have thought that was easily achievable, playing numbers at what level or in what context do you mean?


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    #146
    Pogue eile
    Registered Users Posts: 2,863 ✭✭✭Pogue eile


    Dots1982 wrote: »
    Entrenched in what? What are you talking about?

    You replied telling someone they were wrong when they clearly weren’t. That’s all that’s happening here.

    I'lll simply engage with that poster so, rather that you speaking on their behalf, but I guess old habits die hard.


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    #147
    Dots1982
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,957 ✭✭✭Dots1982


    Pogue eile wrote: »
    I'lll simply engage with that poster so, rather that you speaking on their behalf, but I guess old habits die hard.

    Ok let me break it down for you, maybe you are new, this is a discussion forum. People post on the topic and anyone is free to reply to anyone else on the topic’s matters. If you wish to discuss the topic with one person then PM (Private Message) that person and ask them do they want to parlay on the topic.

    Happy posting.


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    #148
    Pogue eile
    Registered Users Posts: 2,863 ✭✭✭Pogue eile


    Dots1982 wrote: »
    Ok let me break it down for you, maybe you are new, this is a discussion forum. People post on the topic and anyone is free to reply to anyone else on the topic’s matters. If you wish to discuss the topic with one person then PM (Private Message) that person and ask them do they want to parlay on the topic.

    Happy posting.

    I have also just discovered the ignore function, thank fcuk!


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    #149
    Dots1982
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,957 ✭✭✭Dots1982


    Pogue eile wrote: »
    I have also just discovered the ignore function, thank fcuk!

    Great, now you’re learning all by yourself.


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    #150
    MayoAreMagic
    Registered Users Posts: 2,922 ✭✭✭MayoAreMagic


    Pogue eile wrote: »
    Between Tayto's and Movies now I suggest you have a little lie down for yourself, you have tied yourself up in so many knots in this thread I genuinely think that you have forgotten what the thread is actually about.

    I really shouldnt bother but I'll try and explain it to you in simple terms ; if football and hurling were to go semi pro there would be the same number of games in each competition one can safely assume. Hurling has a higher average of attendees at their championship games as it stands. A semi pro format with 'regional teams' would also open up hurling to a far wide audience than it currently holds due to its current exclusiveness at the top level. When you then further consider that hurling has a far greater potential to attract TV audiences outside of Ireland due to its uniqeness then the claim that it is far more likely for football to go semi pro is well wide of the mark.

    Logic of course would dictate that if it happensd in one code then it will also happen in the other, but we seemed to be past logic at this point.

    Sorry but this logic is completely flawed...
    Hurling had a higher average on your count because it had a fraction of the games. This is because you only counted the top tier. To get a true reflection and a fair comparison you need to add in all the tiers of the hurling championship. We both know what that would do to your average attendance figures...

    What you have done is the equivalent of a football fan only taking figures from the super 8s on and saying that is the average attendance for football.

    Logic indeed...


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    #151
    MayoAreMagic
    Registered Users Posts: 2,922 ✭✭✭MayoAreMagic


    Re orourkes idea. It would never work because people still need to work. For example, say if a guy from kerry is working in dublin and gets drafted to leitrim, how the hell is he going to manage that one?


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