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Colm O’Rourke’s article today

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    #92
    GreenandRed
    Registered Users Posts: 480 ✭✭GreenandRed


    Dots1982 wrote: »
    Nah, he isn’t. I’ve been a member of a club since I was four. When my county or club are winning the numbers come out. When they aren’t the numbers go elsewhere. GAA fans are largely like any other sports fan. Many are event junkies and glory hunters. Identity is a factor but chances of success is what really brings out the numbers.

    See the amount of GAA fans who also support English soccer teams. Identity?

    Are you saying that some of our great Mayo GAA supporters, particularly those living near Dublin, only turn up for games in the late championship stages if tickets are plentiful? And wear poxy red jeans and green shirts to Croker because theyre hipsters who would never be seen in a Mayo jersey and think they look mighty and like a real GAA suporter. Surely not? :eek:

    As for Liverpool and Man U supporters saying 'we'. Get the behind me Satan.


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    #93
    Dots1982
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,957 ✭✭✭Dots1982


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    I've already shown you a couple of times already that identity is the big issue with Welsh rugby support.

    But anyway... To expand on the point I think your trying to make...

    Should a franchise system be developed, what happens to the support in the franchises that don't win anything?? By your thinking they stop supporting...

    With the tribal aspect of parish and county, supporters are a lot more forgiving for lack of silverware

    I don’t buy it, my mind is closed to it. No fan will admit “ah couldn’t be bothered they are ****, they never win”. They’ll come out with the more noble reason “I don’t identify with the franchises.”

    I think if welsh clubs had won 7 Heinekens and Ireland had won zero you might see it’s the Irish who don’t “identify” with their teams.


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    #94
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,028 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Dots1982 wrote: »
    I don’t buy it, my mind is closed to it.

    obviously.

    but, regardless, its a well documented warning sign to any proposed franchising of GAA counties.


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    #95
    Sunny Disposition
    Registered Users Posts: 2,709 ✭✭✭Sunny Disposition


    There are some major benefits in a semi pro game, but the payment has to be kept completely away from the club game.
    One of the big benefits is that players from weaker counties would get to play at the highest level. Any kids living in Leitrim today will have no chance to win Liam McCarthy or play at a high level.
    It would be essential salary caps be rigidly enforced, even though the GPA or a body like it will oppose that pretty hard.
    Clubs would end up losing their best, but at least everyone else would be able to play games regularly. There’s not going to be any other solution to fixtures, county teams always dominate despite everyone knowing it’s wrong.


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    #96
    Strumms
    Registered Users Posts: 24,822 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    Dots1982 wrote: »
    How can you tell that it won’t have viewers?

    It would be the end of GAA.. since the dawn of the games people support their county team.. it’s laughable that as well as amalgamation of counties people want to split the Dubs too. So not only do we want to strengthen the opposition we want to weaken Dublin... sure why not just kick them out of the championship and just say ... “hey they win too often, give somebody else a go”... splitting up teammates, splitting up supporters... on the other side, bringing together players whom the only real thing they have in common is their desire to win .... it’s simply an act at engineering an ‘anybody but Dublin’ scenario.... no sports team should ever be penalized for getting their shît together, on and off the pitch, so sports team should ever be criticized for having a hunger and desire to want to be successful in each and every championship game, each and every league game, each and every challenge match...

    Barcelona have won 5 of the last 7 La Liga completions, this year would be 6 of 8, do we demand that some of their revenue be recirculated? Demand that when they play teams in the bottom third they cannot select Messi, Demand a Barca A & B ?

    Instead of the old Irish thing of critiquing and criticizing success and successful people, can we not just say, ‘hey you know what, after struggling for years, hard work, dedication and talent has shone’...


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    #97
    threeball
    Registered Users Posts: 7,939 ✭✭✭threeball


    ReginaldSmythV wrote: »
    You are massively out of touch with the GAA with all this. It’s the exact opposite to what you’re saying.

    So you're saying people head down to a Cavan match just because they're from Cavan and aren't too bothered about the sport.

    I think you've lost touch with reality if you think that's the dynamic at play.


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    #98
    threeball
    Registered Users Posts: 7,939 ✭✭✭threeball


    Donald Trump wrote: »
    100%. Rugby would be different as those supporters probably don't have local rugby clubs or play themselves.

    I can't imagine a local fella in Kerry, training in the muck and rain, lining pitches and coaching an underage team, being as interested or committed when the kids are deciding to wear Facebook Dublin South team jersies.

    He'll still work away at his club as I would work away at mine. The county scene doesn't influence that either way. I don't train 10yr olds wondering how many I can get to play county. I go to county matches because the standard is high, the atmosphere is good and it's a break away from normal everyday life. It's fun in other words. That's why most people follow teams. It's entertainment. Club is not about entertainment, its a deeper connection than that.


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    #99
    partyguinness
    Registered Users Posts: 8,207 ✭✭✭partyguinness


    Dots1982 wrote: »
    So you are saying that Tayto was run into the ground by its Irish owners and it needed German expertise to become profitable? That basically we Irish are a bit dim when it comes to big business?


    Yes. That is exactly what I am saying...:rolleyes:

    Jesus wept.


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    #100
    Dots1982
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,957 ✭✭✭Dots1982


    partyguinness wrote: »
    Yes. That is exactly what I am saying...:rolleyes:

    Jesus wept.

    Well sorry but your point makes no sense from reading it. You are saying Kerry group and Guinness survived by accessing the global market. But Tayto has never accessed the global market. It just got German owners. It still exists off the demand from the Irish domestic market with its German owners and it has existed for around 100 years so it obviously has being profitable.

    The Germans haven’t taken Tayto internationally so why are you talking about companies like Kerry and Guinness that are international?

    So what exactly are you saying?


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    #101
    partyguinness
    Registered Users Posts: 8,207 ✭✭✭partyguinness


    Dots1982 wrote: »
    Well sorry but your point makes no sense from reading it. You are saying Kerry group and Guinness survived by accessing the global market. But Tayto has never accessed the global market. It just got German owners. It still exists off the demand from the Irish domestic market with its German owners and it has existed for around 100 years so it obviously has being profitable.

    The Germans haven’t taken Tayto internationally so why are you talking about companies like Kerry and Guinness that are international?

    So what exactly are you saying?

    I simply pointed out that the Tayto analogy does not make any sense when talking about the GAA.

    You made the point that Tayto are a native brand that is thriving ergo so could the GAA. I pointed out that Tayto is no longer an Irish owned native brand as it is owned by a German multinational and the Tayto brand is not the only brand in the German company's portfolio. Guinness and Kerry Group are other examples- Kerry Group expands by buying up existing companies around the world. If Tayto had stayed on its own then it is highly unlikely it would have survived with direct foreign competition.

    To be honest I have not got the time or energy to explain how globalization works- you don't get it.


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    #102
    Dots1982
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,957 ✭✭✭Dots1982


    partyguinness wrote: »
    I simply pointed out that the Tayto analogy does not make any sense when talking about the GAA.

    You made the point that Tayto are a native brand that is thriving ergo so could the GAA. I pointed out that Tayto is no longer an Irish owned native brand as it is owned by a German multinational and the Tayto brand is not the only brand in the German company's portfolio. Guinness and Kerry Group are other examples- Kerry Group expands by buying up existing companies around the world. If Tayto had stayed on its own then it is highly unlikely it would have survived with direct foreign competition.

    To be honest I have not got the time or energy to explain how globalization works- you don't get it.

    I don’t get your point. I think you got mixed up in your own point to be honest.

    My point was the GAA and Tayto were similar in that they both exist off domestic Irish demand. Tayto has prospered off this demand model so the GAA could aswell even with professionalism.

    Nothing you have said disproves the above paragraph.

    Talk of German owners is completely irrelevant as they are following the same Irish demand model with these owners.


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    #103
    threeball
    Registered Users Posts: 7,939 ✭✭✭threeball


    partyguinness wrote: »
    I simply pointed out that the Tayto analogy does not make any sense when talking about the GAA.

    You made the point that Tayto are a native brand that is thriving ergo so could the GAA. I pointed out that Tayto is no longer an Irish owned native brand as it is owned by a German multinational and the Tayto brand is not the only brand in the German company's portfolio. Guinness and Kerry Group are other examples- Kerry Group expands by buying up existing companies around the world. If Tayto had stayed on its own then it is highly unlikely it would have survived with direct foreign competition.

    To be honest I have not got the time or energy to explain how globalization works- you don't get it.

    I think if the GAA goes pro they need to make a concerted effort to promote the games outside these shores. The way the SKY deal is stuctured show they have either no willingness to do this or don't know how, which is worrying. There should also be a big North American market through GAA Go if it was ran right which of course its not.


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    #104
    partyguinness
    Registered Users Posts: 8,207 ✭✭✭partyguinness


    Dots1982 wrote: »
    I don’t get your point. I think you got mixed up in your own point to be honest.

    My point was the GAA and Tayto were similar in that they both exist off domestic Irish demand. Tayto has prospered off this demand model so the GAA could aswell even with professionalism.

    Nothing you have said disproves the above paragraph.

    Talk of German owners is completely irrelevant as they are following the same Irish demand model with these owners.


    So Tayto sells crisps and the like profitably in Ireland ergo the GAA should have no issue introducing with professionalism is some guise because GAA professionalism and selling crisps and are pretty much the same thing. Right.


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    #105
    GreenandRed
    Registered Users Posts: 480 ✭✭GreenandRed


    partyguinness wrote: »
    So Tayto sells crisps and the like profitably in Ireland ergo the GAA should have no issue introducing with professionalism is some guise because GAA professionalism and selling crisps and are pretty much the same thing. Right.

    If Tayto sponsored the football championship would that make games more watchable by improving the levels of crisp passing ?


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    #106
    threeball
    Registered Users Posts: 7,939 ✭✭✭threeball


    GreenandRed wrote: »
    If Tayto sponsored the football championship would that make games more watchable by improving the levels of crisp passing ?

    No it would just makes supporters more salty.


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    #107
    Dots1982
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,957 ✭✭✭Dots1982


    partyguinness wrote: »
    So Tayto sells crisps and the like profitably in Ireland ergo the GAA should have no issue introducing with professionalism is some guise because GAA professionalism and selling crisps and are pretty much the same thing. Right.

    *SIGH... No, I’ve never claimed that at all.

    What I have said is that people including you have said that Ireland is too small a market for professional GAA to be viable. What I wanted to show with Tayto was the Irish domestic market is large enough to support large businesses that only trade in that market.


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    #108
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,028 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Dots1982 wrote: »
    *SIGH... No, I’ve never claimed that at all.

    What I have said is that people including you have said that Ireland is too small a market for professional GAA to be viable. What I wanted to show with Tayto was the Irish domestic market is large enough to support large businesses that only trade in that market.

    the company that owns tayto does not only trade in ireland


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    #109
    GreenandRed
    Registered Users Posts: 480 ✭✭GreenandRed


    Lads. I know you're on about part-time professionalism. How many intercounty footballers do you think would want to become full-time or part-time professional footballers and/or hurlers. It effectively makes GAA their job. Right now it's their passion, their hobby, their break from their jobs and great for their physical and mental health.

    I've seen GAA supporters on forums sneer about the money some professional soccer players get and some are on stupid money and some seem to put in little effort for it. But that's their market and they've earned because many backed themselves and their talented since they were 10 or younger. Unlike intercounty players they put any career opoortunities on hold and a small few of them were promising GAA underage talents. I know it's part-time professionalism up for discussion but how soon after that will agents and scouts go looking fir Tier 2 talent to poach them through family ties, work. studying to play for money for Tier 1 counties. And in 2030 will we have academies, like rugby, with kids who packed in their education to make football or hurling their future job?


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    #110
    Dots1982
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,957 ✭✭✭Dots1982


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    the company that owns tayto does not only trade in ireland

    Yes ...that was established a couple of pages back. What is yet to be established is why that is of any relevance.


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    #111
    GreenandRed
    Registered Users Posts: 480 ✭✭GreenandRed


    Dots1982 wrote: »
    Yes ...that was established a couple of pages back. What is yet to be established is why that is of any relevance.

    No relevance whatsoever. GAA main intercounty competitions almost rxclusively played in Ireland. Plenty of clubs dotted around the world but no signs yet of Leagues or All Ireland Championship being international.


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    #112
    partyguinness
    Registered Users Posts: 8,207 ✭✭✭partyguinness


    Dots1982 wrote: »
    *SIGH... No, I’ve never claimed that at all.

    What I have said is that people including you have said that Ireland is too small a market for professional GAA to be viable. What I wanted to show with Tayto was the Irish domestic market is large enough to support large businesses that only trade in that market.


    That is what you are saying once you tease it out just a little.

    I get the point you are making but all I am saying is that comparing the manufacture and selling of crisps is nowhere near being on the same planet as introducing professionalism in the GAA and really not that simple.


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    #113
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,028 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Dots1982 wrote: »
    Yes ...that was established a couple of pages back. What is yet to be established is why that is of any relevance.

    you obviously dont understand how a multinational company works then.....

    https://www.intersnackgroup.com/home/


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    #114
    partyguinness
    Registered Users Posts: 8,207 ✭✭✭partyguinness


    GreenandRed wrote: »
    Lads. I know you're on about part-time professionalism. How many intercounty footballers do you think would want to become full-time or part-time professional footballers and/or hurlers. It effectively makes GAA their job. Right now it's their passion, their hobby, their break from their jobs and great for their physical and mental health.

    I've seen GAA supporters on forums sneer about the money some professional soccer players get and some are on stupid money and some seem to put in little effort for it. But that's their market and they've earned because many backed themselves and their talented since they were 10 or younger. Unlike intercounty players they put any career opoortunities on hold and a small few of them were promising GAA underage talents. I know it's part-time professionalism up for discussion but how soon after that will agents and scouts go looking fir Tier 2 talent to poach them through family ties, work. studying to play for money for Tier 1 counties. And in 2030 will we have academies, like rugby, with kids who packed in their education to make football or hurling their future job?


    I mentioned earlier that I have not picked up any clamor from players for professionalism.

    I grew up and played with lads who played intercounty (several AI senior final appearances). there was 8 intercounty minor players in my leaving cert class alone between two different counties in hurling and football- 5 of them went on the play senior AI finals and one of them won several AI senior titles.

    I was in college with a good few (hurling and football) and was very good friends with a lad who captained his county one year and ended up with several playing AI senior football title medals., played international rules and Railway Cup and pretty much won everything with club, county and university- In fact, I cannot think of a title he did not win.

    He had no interest in professionalism. As long as they are looked after they enjoy it. Obviously every player has different opinions. Same with the other intercounty lads- had no opinion on the topic so it seems to me that all this talk for professionalism- who is driving it?


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    #115
    Dots1982
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,957 ✭✭✭Dots1982


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    you obviously dont understand how a multinational company works then.....

    https://www.intersnackgroup.com/home/

    Can you show me any evidence that large Irish companies that only exist to supply the Irish domestic market cannot proceed on that basis because the market is too small? Because that is what is being discussed here.


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    #116
    GreenandRed
    Registered Users Posts: 480 ✭✭GreenandRed


    partyguinness wrote: »
    I mentioned earlier that I have not picked up any clamor from players for professionalism.

    I grew up and played with lads who played intercounty (several AI senior final appearances). there was 8 intercounty minor players in my leaving cert class alone between two different counties in hurling and football- 5 of them went on the play senior AI finals and one of them won several AI senior titles.

    I was in college with a good few (hurling and football) and was very good friends with a lad who captained his county one year and ended up with several playing AI senior football title medals., played international rules and Railway Cup and pretty much won everything with club, county and university- In fact, I cannot think of a title he did not win.

    He had no interest in professionalism. As long as they are looked after they enjoy it. Obviously every player has different opinions. Same with the other intercounty lads- had no opinion on the topic so it seems to me that all this talk for professionalism- who is driving it?

    I don't know who is driving the professional or semi-professional intercounty GAA plan. Other than lazy clickbait 'journalism'.


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    #117
    Dots1982
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,957 ✭✭✭Dots1982


    partyguinness wrote: »
    That is what you are saying once you tease it out just a little.

    I get the point you are making but all I am saying is that comparing the manufacture and selling of crisps is nowhere near being on the same planet as introducing professionalism in the GAA and really not that simple.

    I make no bones that I believe GAA professionalism will happen, I said it in the first post.

    But I’m not saying and never have that Tayto means the GAA will be successful in professionalism. If you took that as the meaning then you’ve totally missed the point.


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    #118
    threeball
    Registered Users Posts: 7,939 ✭✭✭threeball


    Dots1982 wrote: »
    Can you show me any evidence that large Irish companies that only exist to supply the Irish domestic market cannot proceed on that basis because the market is too small? Because that is what is being discussed here.

    Supermacs is a better example. And similar turnover to what the GAA would require at €140m with about €16m net profit. I bet staff numbers would be similar to what a professional GAA would require also.


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    #119
    Stacksofwacks
    Registered Users Posts: 1,534 ✭✭✭Stacksofwacks


    I think maybe a ten or 12 team football league might work on a professional basis. I don't think hurling is widely played by enough counties to make it a profitable proposition. Go semi pro in the football and leave the hurling strictly amateur for the time being until it gets more widely developed. Another possibility of what might happen eventually is the intercounty players break away(backed by businessmen) and form their own professional league. If this happens and a tv deal is already secured the its game over for amateurism. I don't really want to see it as the world is commercialised enough as it is, but its inevitable really.


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    #120
    threeball
    Registered Users Posts: 7,939 ✭✭✭threeball


    Stacksofwacks wrote: »
    I think maybe a ten or 12 team football league might work on a professional basis. I don't think hurling is widely played by enough counties to make it a profitable proposition. Go semi pro in the football and leave the hurling strictly amateur for the time being until it gets more widely developed. Another possibility of what might happen eventually is the intercounty players break away(backed by businessmen) and form their own professional league. If this happens and a tv deal is already secured the its game over for amateurism. I don't really want to see it as the world is commercialised enough as it is, but its inevitable really.

    Probably the best thing that could happen to the GAA now is that the club's break away to take back the power and run the club competitions like they should be ran. The big wigs are destroying both the club and IC scene as it stands.


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    #121
    conor05
    Registered Users Posts: 934 ✭✭✭conor05


    Stacksofwacks wrote: »
    I think maybe a ten or 12 team football league might work on a professional basis. I don't think hurling is widely played by enough counties to make it a profitable proposition. Go semi pro in the football and leave the hurling strictly amateur for the time being until it gets more widely developed. Another possibility of what might happen eventually is the intercounty players break away(backed by businessmen) and form their own professional league. If this happens and a tv deal is already secured the its game over for amateurism. I don't really want to see it as the world is commercialised enough as it is, but its inevitable really.

    Not a hope in hell would hurling people accept that. Hurling is the better sport as a spectacle so the GAA would definitely use that as a platform for TV deals etc.

    Realistically the All Ireland’s would be shared between Kerry and Dublin it it went semi-pro in football, atleast in the hurling you would have 6-7 counties who would genuinely feel they could win it on any given year and would make for better tv audience.


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