Colm O’Rourke’s article today

brocbrocach · 13-01-2020 5:08pm

No, that's not true either. Ospreys especially have done well. Cardiff have had a few good seasons.

sydthebeat · 13-01-2020 5:09pm

Dots1982 wrote: »

Ok. My main argument on the welsh rugby franchises is that only llanelli that has achieved success and that has been limited success. I think that’s why they never became popular more than reasons around not connecting with identity or grassroots.

actually nope... the identity issue is a very significant problem.

https://jomec.co.uk/thecardiffian/2015/12/01/muddy-waters-welsh-rugby-identity-crisis-affected-game-generation/

Dots1982 · 13-01-2020 5:09pm

brocbrocach wrote: »

No, that's not true either. Ospreys especially have done well. Cardiff have had a few good seasons.

How many Champions cups have they won?

sydthebeat · 13-01-2020 5:10pm

brocbrocach wrote: »

No, that's not true either. Ospreys especially have done well. Cardiff have had a few good seasons.

yep, the ospreys are the most successful welsh club.

technically llanelli isnt the franchise, its "scarlets"

sydthebeat · 13-01-2020 5:13pm

Dots1982 wrote: »

How many Champions cups have they won?

no welsh club has ever won the HC

the blues were runners up once, when they were called cardiff

but this is wayyy off topic

grbear · 13-01-2020 5:13pm

It's, unsurprisingly considering the source I guess, a very men's football focused view of what the future might entail. If they do start down this path then I'm guessing each franchise would be expected to support both a football and a hurling team with the hope of also fielding a ladies football and camogie team at some point in the future. So at the start anyway we'll say seventy players, 35 in each code, two sets of coaches, a sports science team and a set of full time administrators.

You'd also need 20 or so(a Galway Mayo franchise would never work if all the matches were in Galway or vice versa) venues capable of holding a decent crowd and with the facilities in place for matches to matches to be broadcast.

I'm sure it's theoretically possible but O'Rourkes piece doesn't go into any meaningful detail about how it'd work. If you're going to throw an idea like that out there then a bit more detail is needed.

Dots1982 · 13-01-2020 5:15pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

no welsh club has ever won the HC

the blues were runners up once, when they were called cardiff

but this is wayyy off topic

Ok and I believe that to be main reason the welsh club/franchise system has not connected with fans.

Dots1982 · 13-01-2020 5:16pm

grbear wrote: »

It's, unsurprisingly considering the source I guess, a very men's football focused view of what the future might entail. If they do start down this path then I'm guessing each franchise would be expected to support both a football and a hurling team with the hope of also fielding a ladies football and camogie team at some point in the future. So at the start anyway we'll say seventy players, 35 in each code, two sets of coaches, a sports science team and a set of full time administrators.

You'd also need 20 or so(a Galway Mayo franchise would never work if all the matches were in Galway or vice versa) venues capable of holding a decent crowd and with the facilities in place for matches to matches to be broadcast.

I'm sure it's theoretically possible but O'Rourkes piece doesn't go into any meaningful detail about how it'd work. If you're going to throw an idea like that out there then a bit more detail is needed.

How much money does ladies intercounty football bring in in revenue?

Coillte_Bhoy · 13-01-2020 5:20pm

Dots1982 wrote: »

Ok. My main argument on the welsh rugby franchises is that only llanelli that has achieved success and that has been limited success. I think that’s why they never became popular more than reasons around not connecting with identity or grassroots.

With all due respects what are you basing that on? considering you have displayed a rather limited understaing of the Welsh rugby structures, no offence intended btw

Dots1982 · 13-01-2020 5:25pm

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

With all due respects what are you basing that on? considering you have displayed a rather limited understaing of the Welsh rugby structures, no offence intended btw

I base my opinion on that when it comes to elite sports, people support success more than identity.

Right now all counties have a great independent identity and history. Yet because very few teams have a chance of success gate receipts are dropping.

I think identity is fine but when you really want crowds to appear at games then it’s trophies and success that will bring the crowds.

There are endless examples of this.

sydthebeat · 13-01-2020 5:25pm

Dots1982 wrote: »

Ok and I believe that to be main reason the welsh club/franchise system has not connected with fans.

us in ireland focus on the HC far more than teams in all the other 6 nations counties do. English and french teams view their domestic league as more attractive.

ospreys won 4 celtic leagues (pro 14) between 2005 - 2012
scarlets have won 2

ospreys had a team of exceptionally gifted players back then, B+I lions, and played synthilating and entertaining rugby.
... however....
https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/pro14/all-the-welsh-regions-are-on-their-knees-bernard-jackman-on-the-collpase-of-the-scarlets-ospreys-merger-37889394.html

"The Ospreys have been Wales' most successful Welsh region yet had the hardest part of embracing regional rugby because they actually merged Swansea and Neath, who were massive, massive rivals. It was said it could never be done.

partyguinness · 13-01-2020 5:26pm

Dots1982 wrote: »

Read post #33 in this thread as I’ve addressed most of what you discuss there. Come back if you want after reading that.

Part of post #33 is exactly the post I am quoting.

Essentially you made a comparison between the GAA market and Tayto crisps i.e. if Tayto can survive in a domestic market then so can the GAA and that if the LOI can 'survive' then surely the GAA can as well considering they have far more money sloshing around. Fine at face value but scratch the surface.

There is a lot wrong with the comparisons. I will deal with a few:

1. The Tayto market

Tayto are owned by Intersnack- a large German company that has a presence in many countries and makes many other snacks other than Tayto. If the Irish market bottomed out tomorrow (not likely but let's pretend) Intersnack would survive perfectly fine.

You see, Tayto is not an indigenous Irish company/product like the GAA.

2. The LOI

It survives just the same as the rugby and hockey survive. By just bringing up the LOI you have not backed up your point at all. It just about survives and if you have followed it in recent years there has been plenty of ruined clubs.

Unlike say Cork City or Dundalk who are a stand alone club with say a squad of 25 players with league and cup fixtures, in any given GAA county there is a massive set up and a whole structure to manage within the county- underage development, summer course, referees & officials, multiple stadia & pitches all over the county, competitions to run from junior level to senior and everything in between- double that workload with hurling and of course the women's game and even handball.

You are forgetting the huge structure behind every county team and the logistics behind it and....the cost of running it. Now you want to throw in semi-professionalism on top of that?

The logistics behind running a LOI club is nothing compared to the apparatus of a GAA county (FFS...Cork City does not even own a pitch or stadium!)

Some general points:

a. Where do you start e.g. u18 or u21s or just senior?
b. Will a transfer system be allowed? Say Kerry offer a lad €100k pa but then Dublin offer €150k to move up. Will that be allowed?
c. If the player does not like the sum on offer will he be banned from playing altogether?
d. Potentially you may have a system where some players are being paid but some are not and milking endorsements etc. Is that good for squad moral?
e. To pay for all this the GAA will be at the mercy of the corporate interests. Ticket prices will start to rocket. Croke Park will become 'The Avonmore Stadium'
f. Then the ladies will start kicking off.
g. Oh and what about hurling? If football is paying but not hurling what will that do to the future of hurling?

I should declare that personally I am not particularly bothered if the GAA started paying players but the market conditions are not right.

Dots1982 · 13-01-2020 5:34pm

partyguinness wrote: »

Part of post #33 is exactly the post I am quoting.

Essentially you made a comparison between the GAA market and Tayto crisps i.e. if Tayto can survive in a domestic market then so can the GAA and that if the LOI can 'survive' then surely the GAA can as well considering they have far more money sloshing around. Fine at face value but scratch the surface.

There is a lot wrong with the comparisons. I will deal with a few:

1. The Tayto market

Tayto are owned by Intersnack- a large German company that has a presence in many countries and makes many other snacks other than Tayto. If the Irish market bottomed out tomorrow (not likely but let's pretend) Intersnack would survive perfectly fine.

You see, Tayto is not an indigenous Irish company/product like the GAA.

2. The LOI

It survives just the same as the rugby and hockey survive. By just bringing up the LOI you have not backed up your point at all. It just about survives and if you have followed it in recent years there has been plenty of ruined clubs.

Unlike say Cork City or Dundalk who are a stand alone club with say a squad of 25 players with league and cup fixtures, in any given GAA county there is a massive set up and a whole structure to manage within the county- underage development, summer course, referees & officials, multiple stadia & pitches all over the county, competitions to run from junior level to senior and everything in between- double that workload with hurling and of course the women's game and even handball.

You are forgetting the huge structure behind every county team and the logistics behind it and....the cost of running it. Now you want to throw in semi-professionalism on top of that?

The logistics behind running a LOI club is nothing compared to the apparatus of a GAA county (FFS...Cork City does not even own a pitch or stadium!)

Some general points:

a. Where do you start e.g. u18 or u21s or just senior?
b. Will a transfer system be allowed? Say Kerry offer a lad €100k pa but then Dublin offer €150k to move up. Will that be allowed?
c. If the player does not like the sum on offer will he be banned from playing altogether?
d. Potentially you may have a system where some players are being paid but some are not and milking endorsements etc. Is that good for squad moral?
e. To pay for all this the GAA will be at the mercy of the corporate interests. Ticket prices will start to rocket. Croke Park will become 'The Avonmore Stadium'
f. Then the ladies will start kicking off.
g. Oh and what about hurling? If football is paying but not hurling what will that do to the future of hurling?

I should declare that personally I am not particularly bothered if the GAA started paying players but the market conditions are not right.

Well firstly the Germans own tayto because they believe it’s profitable and will continue to be. It’s profitable because of the Irish domestic market.

I have no idea what relevance you think pointing out that if tayto went out of business that the Germans would stay in business has.

I’ll come back on the rest in due course.

AlanG · 13-01-2020 5:37pm

This seems like a very good proposal to discuss and consider.
I often think a system like the NFL in the states is the best way to even out GAA football- A salary cap is vital, draft where the worst team set the first pick and a conference system so you have have local champions and still play teams from around the land. (they play 2 matches against teams in their area each year and then a selection of other teams so the "local" matches are most important. This is all squeezed into a 16 week regular season (leaving lots of time for club). The GAA could take a lot of what the NFL have done. I would also consider it vital that the team are owned by fans and not big owners like in English soccer, the german or spanish model creates much more stability.

On the down side I think it would be the death knell for hurling so it is unlikely to be considered unless they can get do something for hurling at the same time.

threeball · 13-01-2020 5:43pm

The GAA at this stage have to make a decision. Do they keep chasing these ever higher standards and if so do so in the knowledge that professionalism is inevitable or do they decide to go back to more traditional values, ensure the club comes first and that intercounty fits round the club season rather than the other way round with clubs releasing players to the county rather than the other way round.

I think their mind is already made up. They have seen the money rolling and they have no intention of going backwards. They've tried to ride both horses for as long as possible but its obvious that its no longer viable. The gap is now to big to keep the sport viable. They've tried to get another few years out of it with this latest half hearted effort at regulating the season but its a stop gap and they know it.

Professionalism is achievable in my opinion but only if reduced to about 15 sides. 10 for hurling. There would be significant cost savings made from counties if they had the same facilities and specialised coaches available to both their hurlers and footballers but obviously there would be significant wages to be paid. Players would be playing 14 league games and 2 to 6 championship games. Facilities would have to become more compact and consumer friendly and they would need to be able to command an average crowd of about 8-10,000 per game. TV money and sponsorship would need to supply about €1m per club on top of that.

It would also mean 95% of the money going straight back in to the professional game and only 5% or so dripping down to the clubs. i don't know the breakdown at the moment but Im sure the clubs get far more than 5%.

partyguinness · 13-01-2020 5:46pm

Dots1982 wrote: »

Well firstly the Germans own tayto because they believe it’s profitable and will continue to be. It’s profitable because of the Irish domestic market.

I have no idea what relevance you think pointing out that if tayto went out of business that the Germans would stay in business has.

I’ll come back on the rest in due course.

...because you were comparing Tayto to the GAA on the basis that they are both indigenous products that can survive. For all we know, the German input streamlined the process and made it profitable. I am not familiar with the corporate governance or financials of Tayto over the past few decades.

Even Guinness that most Irish of Irish icons, it has not been 'Irish' for decades. It is owned by a UK based plc.

And why are Guinness and Tayto no longer indigenous? They 'sold out' to survive. They could not survive in Ireland on their own in a competing global market. Likewise, it has allowed Irish companies to compete abroad- Kerry Group plc are not far off being the largest food group in the world. Not by selling milk and butter in Ireland but by global expansion and buy outs.

The GAA does not have that fall back -there will be no foreign bail out and likewise it cannot compete. It is exceptional.

To say that a profitable Tayto market in Ireland (is it profitable?) should be evidence enough for GAA semi-professionalism in Ireland for the GAA is cute but naive.

partyguinness · 13-01-2020 6:03pm

Posters are saying that professionalism is achievable and it is inevitable. But I don't think it is...perhaps it is achievable but is it necessary? I have not sensed any great clamor among players for it- maybe there is on the quiet.

The idea of condensing it down to say 10-15 teams is solid but this will inevitable create a 2-3 tier system and is an attempt to streamline the game. I think while it makes sense if a thoroughly professional system was already in situ I think it would alienate counties and goes against the ethos of the game.

My point is I do not see the game suffering if professionalism is not brought in.

There seems to be an element of having a solution (professionalism) so all we need now is a problem.

Dots1982 · 13-01-2020 6:25pm

partyguinness wrote: »

...because you were comparing Tayto to the GAA on the basis that they are both indigenous products that can survive. For all we know, the German input streamlined the process and made it profitable. I am not familiar with the corporate governance or financials of Tayto over the past few decades.

Even Guinness that most Irish of Irish icons, it has not been 'Irish' for decades. It is owned by a UK based plc.

And why are Guinness and Tayto no longer indigenous? They 'sold out' to survive. They could not survive in Ireland on their own in a competing global market. Likewise, it has allowed Irish companies to compete abroad- Kerry Group plc are not far off being the largest food group in the world. Not by selling milk and butter in Ireland but by global expansion and buy outs.

The GAA does not have that fall back -there will be no foreign bail out and likewise it cannot compete. It is exceptional.

To say that a profitable Tayto market in Ireland (is it profitable?) should be evidence enough for GAA semi-professionalism in Ireland for the GAA is cute but naive.

So you are saying that Tayto was run into the ground by its Irish owners and it needed German expertise to become profitable? That basically we Irish are a bit dim when it comes to big business?

Dots1982 · 13-01-2020 6:34pm

threeball wrote: »

The GAA at this stage have to make a decision. Do they keep chasing these ever higher standards and if so do so in the knowledge that professionalism is inevitable or do they decide to go back to more traditional values, ensure the club comes first and that intercounty fits round the club season rather than the other way round with clubs releasing players to the county rather than the other way round.
.

the GAA have wanted to hunt with the hounds and run with the foxes since the 90s. They want to maximize revenue following a sports business model but don’t want to pay anything beyond a tiny sum to those generating the revenue because it’s all about the grassroots. It’s a doomed business model because it fails a basic principle of the labour market: those that generate income are rewarded for it.

KaneToad · 13-01-2020 6:51pm

Dots1982 wrote: »

Preverse? Not credible would be my description of it.

The localisation (ie county v county) is the very reason that GAA games survive & thrive. If professional franchises were created with fewer teams the localisation factor is removed. I don't think you'd get the numbers to pay to see that. The GAAs strength is in its amateurism & localism.

Dots1982 · 13-01-2020 6:59pm

KaneToad wrote: »

The localisation (ie county v county) is the very reason that GAA games survive & thrive. If professional franchises were created with fewer teams the localisation factor is removed. I don't think you'd get the numbers to pay to see that. The GAAs strength is in its amateurism & localism.

So why do irish GAA people support man utd and hate Liverpool or vice versa? How come they can support an area they have no links to but if it came in in GAA they would walk away because it isn’t “local” enough anymore?

threeball · 13-01-2020 9:34pm

Dots1982 wrote: »

the GAA have wanted to hunt with the hounds and run with the foxes since the 90s. They want to maximize revenue following a sports business model but don’t want to pay anything beyond a tiny sum to those generating the revenue because it’s all about the grassroots. It’s a doomed business model because it fails a basic principle of the labour market: those that generate income are rewarded for it.

I addressed that point above. They either go pro or go back to a club first county second model

threeball · 13-01-2020 9:39pm

KaneToad wrote: »

The localisation (ie county v county) is the very reason that GAA games survive & thrive. If professional franchises were created with fewer teams the localisation factor is removed. I don't think you'd get the numbers to pay to see that. The GAAs strength is in its amateurism & localism.

People go because they enjoy the sports, no more, no less. People don't just show up because they're from Cavan or wherever. They love the sport first and foremost. The numbers would stay the same or increase as you'll get people who use the amateur status as a stick to beat the association. Some of them will come on board as bandwagoners. Just like they did with the rugby. Hardly anyone went near connaught before they went pro. Even now their numbers are not huge but they manage and have some big wages to pay. Much higher than a football or hurling team would.

13-01-2020 9:44pm

threeball wrote: »

People go because they enjoy the sports, no more, no less. People don't just show up because they're from Cavan or wherever. They love the sport first and foremost. The numbers would stay the same or increase as you'll get people who use the amateur status as a stick to beat the association. Some of them will come on board as bandwagoners. Just like they did with the rugby. Hardly anyone went near connaught before they went pro. Even now their numbers are not huge but they manage and have some big wages to pay. Much higher than a football or hurling team would.

You are massively out of touch with the GAA with all this. It’s the exact opposite to what you’re saying.

Donald Trump · 13-01-2020 9:54pm

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

threeball wrote: »

People go because they enjoy the sports, no more, no less. People don't just show up because they're from Cavan or wherever. They love the sport first and foremost. The numbers would stay the same or increase as you'll get people who use the amateur status as a stick to beat the association. Some of them will come on board as bandwagoners. Just like they did with the rugby. Hardly anyone went near connaught before they went pro. Even now their numbers are not huge but they manage and have some big wages to pay. Much higher than a football or hurling team would.

You are massively out of touch with the GAA with all this. It’s the exact opposite to what you’re saying.

100%. Rugby would be different as those supporters probably don't have local rugby clubs or play themselves.

I can't imagine a local fella in Kerry, training in the muck and rain, lining pitches and coaching an underage team, being as interested or committed when the kids are deciding to wear Facebook Dublin South team jersies.

Hawkeye9212 · 13-01-2020 10:29pm

Dots1982 wrote: »

Ok, well two things

1- already stated, a big problem for welsh sides is they aren’t successful. Leinster didn’t immediately become a huge brand overnight. They built their brand by being successful over time. This never happened for welsh clubs.

2- the welsh clubs exist in both their original form as single clubs and then only join up for international competition. I think I’m correct with that understanding? In the GAA professional model they will only exist in one form. They won’t be one form in another competition and then switch to amalgamate teams in another competition.

Identity is a huge issue for Welsh rugby. Fans haven't bought into the franchises like in Ireland.

Dots1982 · 13-01-2020 10:30pm

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

You are massively out of touch with the GAA with all this. It’s the exact opposite to what you’re saying.

Nah, he isn’t. I’ve been a member of a club since I was four. When my county or club are winning the numbers come out. When they aren’t the numbers go elsewhere. GAA fans are largely like any other sports fan. Many are event junkies and glory hunters. Identity is a factor but chances of success is what really brings out the numbers.

See the amount of GAA fans who also support English soccer teams. Identity?

Dots1982 · 13-01-2020 10:36pm

Hawkeye9212 wrote: »

Identity is a huge issue for Welsh rugby. Fans haven't bought into the franchises like in Ireland.

They also haven’t won 7 Heineken cups like Irish teams have. They have won zero. That’s a factor in these franchises’ popularity. A big one I’d say.

sydthebeat · 13-01-2020 10:49pm

Dots1982 wrote: »

They also haven’t won 7 Heineken cups like Irish teams have. They have won zero. That’s a factor in these franchises’ popularity. A big one I’d say.

I've already shown you a couple of times already that identity is the big issue with Welsh rugby support.

But anyway... To expand on the point I think your trying to make...

Should a franchise system be developed, what happens to the support in the franchises that don't win anything?? By your thinking they stop supporting...

With the tribal aspect of parish and county, supporters are a lot more forgiving for lack of silverware

GreenandRed · 13-01-2020 10:53pm

Dots1982 wrote: »

They also haven’t won 7 Heineken cups like Irish teams have. They have won zero. That’s a factor in these franchises’ popularity. A big one I’d say.

Sure are our provinces not franchises in a way? An amalgamation of clubs. Other club sides in Champions Cup are club sides, not alamagamations or franchises.

Colm O’Rourke’s article today

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