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Colm O’Rourke’s article today

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 15,343 ✭✭✭✭ Donald Trump


    You can't have a draft system for semi-pro.

    Imagine some fella good enough to get a contract and being told he just got drafted to where he considers the back arse of nowhere, a place to which he has no connection at all.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,193 ✭✭✭✭ Kerrydude1981


    What I can see happening is that once a player is in with the county panel then he is locked down and will not play any games for his club at all during the year

    Of course in some cases this is probably already happening


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,958 Dots1982


    What I can see happening is that once a player is in with the county panel then he is locked down and will not play any games for his club at all during the year

    Of course in some cases this is probably already happening

    Even at the end of the county season you don’t players will go back to their clubs for club championship?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,761 ✭✭✭ Donnielighto


    Won't work, there isn't enough to support this. How many counties could currently support a professional and if you get rid of some teams, reduce it to 16 or 8 it still wouldn't work.

    Hurling side of gaa would have a fit over it too I'd say.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,761 ✭✭✭ Donnielighto


    Dots1982 wrote: »
    https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/colm-orourke-no-more-county-teams-a-salary-cap-and-a-new-league-why-semi-pro-would-be-better-than-status-quo-38853580.html


    This will happen, probably within this decade. If anyone wants me to copy and paste the article so to avoid the registerwall then let me know.

    Can you post the body?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,958 Dots1982


    The GAA has been in a state of flux for a while. Controversies abound.
    Mickey Harte's comments on Cathal McShane's possible move to the AFL indicate a parochial attitude which still persists in many parts of the GAA.

    No-one likes to lose players to Australia, but Harte would be better off wishing McShane well in his sporting pursuit and telling him that he is always welcome back to the Tyrone team. That same Tyrone team don't own him. McShane owes them nothing.

    Would the attitude be any different if he went to work in New York or San Francisco? Or is it the prospect of him getting paid for playing which grates with so many?

    There is not much being said about the number of players who are walking away from county teams. Many of these are from the weaker counties. These players are not fools. They realise that the league is a competition where they can make some progress, but the championship is a dead duck. Does Harte or any of the others who complain about players going to Australia have any feelings for this much larger group?

    This problem is created and fostered by the GAA's fixture schedule and competitions structure, but there is very little done about it, maybe because most of those walking away are not well known. If the new proposals go through with the league and championship being flipped then there will be a response. It would be a start on the long road.


    Of course there are other solutions to the problems of the present. Perhaps a semi-professional league would solve a lot of those problems at both club and county level. I suspect the GPA would be happy, even if they profess otherwise, and players would naturally be delighted to be paid for playing. Anyone who says otherwise is either stupid or brainwashed. Any man or woman is entitled to get paid for working if that is what playing football becomes.

    Very many of us would not like to see the GAA travelling this road, but there are plenty of examples in other sports of how it has worked well. Aussie rules, which so many blame quite a few ills on, was in a similar position to the GAA 40 years ago. The game was largely based in Melbourne (with a population close to five million) and teams represented districts of the city such as Hawthorn, Fitzroy, North Melbourne, Collingwood, Essendon and so on. It was very popular and, like rugby in pre-professional times, players started to get money to play.


    Eventually an all-Australian League was formed with teams in Melbourne, Sydney, Adelaide, Brisbane, Perth and the Gold Coast. Money talked and players did not represent their districts anymore as the league and finances grew. Yet even though the teams were franchises or owned by supporters' clubs, the league has grown, crowds are huge and it is financially very healthy.

    One of the reasons for this success is the salary cap. Every club can pay around $12.5m to a panel of 42 players. If one player gets $1m, the other 41 share $11.5m. This cap is rigidly enforced. The big money has come from TV rights - a six-year deal was struck in 2015 for $2.5bn.

    The GAA could have a semi-professional league based on this model. County teams would disappear (many have to all intents and purposes) and there could be 12 or 14 teams who would all play each other during the season. Naturally there would be at least one Dublin side, maybe even two or three, and one in Kerry, Mayo, Galway, Tyrone and other centres where a team could be supported.

    Their survival would depend on having a major sponsor and a good support base as each team would play six or eight home games every year.

    County teams as we know them would disappear and only the best players would have a chance of getting a contract. The reality would be that 50 or 60 players playing in Dublin would be snapped up. Not just Brian Fenton, Ciaran Kilkenny, Brian Howard and Con O'Callaghan, but a whole host of other club players who do not get a look in at the moment.

    Perhaps the final some day could be between Google North Dublin against Facebook Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown, or it could still be Meath v Kerry. Most teams would be based near the east coast where the population is growing rapidly. Home grounds would not be so important. In Melbourne there are matches every week and sometimes more than one in the MCG and Marvel Stadium. They are not as hung up on ownership as we are. Play the game and pay the rent rather than burying millions and millions in bricks and mortar. Put the money into the game is their motto.

    This type of league has many advantages. First of all it would remove teams from under the auspices of county boards and save counties a fortune. More and more money is being wasted on county teams as the dog continues to chase his tail. Free from the burden of financing a county senior side which 95 per cent of the time goes nowhere, there would be an opportunity to develop the game properly at club and underage level, with greater funds available. There would be no fixture conflicts as the county players would no longer play with their clubs. The hassle over conflicts with the third level, under 20s and other competitions would instantly disappear as the county players focus on just one team. And young players would strive to get into the big league.

    The key, as always, is money. For sure a better TV deal would be possible as a professional game would mean more TV channels would be interested. Games would be more competitive, at least after an initial settling in period as the weaker teams every year would get the first choices in the draft. Supporters clubs would flourish, as they do in Melbourne, where some have more than 100,000 members, and for a small fee they get tickets for matches at low prices, lower than we pay into championship matches in Croke Park. And bigger sponsors would get involved.

    For many the thought of such a move is heresy. At the same time we have to face up to the fact that there is creeping professionalism anyway. One where some of the biggest bluffers in back-room teams get highly paid while the best players get nothing. Is that sustainable or even fair? We now have a system where the rich have nearly devoured the poor. If the GPA organised a strike among players from weaker counties to get proper treatment I might even support them.

    Life is full of choices. Everyone in the GAA runs away from hard decisions. This is one choice which would solve a lot of problems and would mean that there would be no need for players to travel to Australia to play professionally. Mickey Harte would hardly approve of this either.

    There is nothing wrong with a strictly amateur game so long as everyone plays by the same rules. I would still prefer a heavily-reformed GAA to this semi-professional model, but it would be better than what we have at present.

    In the meantime, some will travel to Australia in pursuit of adventure as much as money. Good luck to them. There is nothing easy about making it down under and shooting the messenger won't stop the gentle trickle of talent making the hard voyage.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,193 ✭✭✭✭ Kerrydude1981


    Dots1982 wrote: »
    Even at the end of the county season you don’t players will go back to their clubs for club championship?

    Ive a feeling they wont, they will be straight back into the pre season training after a month or so off

    Its happening already teams are starting to train in November,

    There is a hurling conference on down here next Friday night

    One of the topics that is going to be covered is "how to integrate inter county players back into the club panel"


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,148 mountgomery burns


    Ive a feeling they wont, they will be straight back into the pre season training after a month or so off

    Its happening already teams are starting to train in November,

    There is a hurling conference on down here next Friday night

    One of the topics that is going to be covered is "how to integrate inter county players back into the club panel"

    I think while it would solve the fixtures problem for clubs, they won't adopt it due to their own ambitions.

    In fairness, be hard to blame a small club for not wanting to give up their best players for the business end of the year.


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,830 ✭✭✭✭ Strumms


    If Gaelic football and or hurling was to turn professional you’d just have the biggest counties dominating even more


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,028 ✭✭✭ theoneeyedman


    Dots1982 wrote: »

    I've said that here and elsewhere, that an outside influence (a sponsor, broadcast company, Internet company or someone with deep pockets) will eventually try to use the GAA football in particular to establish themselves, like Sky did in the UK 30 years ago, and others have done too.

    The bones of the structure will eventually be tried, whether it works or not longterm I don't know. The drive towards elitism, facilitated by those based in Croke Park, the GAA hierarchy and the GPA, will eventually cause a spilt between club and county.

    The draft thing, I don't know how that would work here. I always find it fascinating in the most capitalist country in the world, where the word socialist is a cuss word, operates a proper draft system that works towards equity in their elite sports and works against the bigger, more successful teams. If it works there, it can work anywhere, but I don't know how it would work here.

    Also the salary cap.... Yea right. Paddy doesn't work like that, look at the 'expanses' and stuff washing around the game now, when it's supposed to be amateur. We're too crooked to make that work, and the culture here isn't one to enforce rules like that.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭ skooterblue2


    Colm O Ruairc, isn't the genuis he thinks he is.
    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/bank-chases-football-legend-for-853463-development-loan-26762476.html

    If he was that sort of financial genius he would be working for the bank instead of owing them money. The bank staff must all get excited the day he passes the window.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,969 ✭✭✭ KevRossi


    Strumms wrote: »
    If Gaelic football and or hurling was to turn professional you’d just have the biggest counties dominating even more

    O'Rourke is talking about disbanding counties totally and setting up 12-16 new teams that may be initially based on population centres, but I suspect would be more like 'franchises'.

    It could end out with the scenario that a team from the west could get a major sponsor and have David Moran, Ciaran Kilkenny, Brian Fenton, Michael Murphy, Cathal McShane a a few others playing on it.

    It could be called 'Galway', 'Connacht', 'Ireland West', 'Setanta Allstars' or something similar. He also envisages sponsors lending their names to the teams like 'Red Bull Salzburg', so you'd have 'Connacht Tesla' or similar.

    I can see where he's coming from, the division would be painful, many county grounds would close, there'd be plenty of calls of 'traitor' if GAA HQ don't go along with it, but it would give a clean break between club and the new format. I don't think there would be the same passion at some matches, it would be like Leinster v Munster in rugby.

    Worth a discussion at least.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,958 Dots1982


    I've said that here and elsewhere, that an outside influence (a sponsor, broadcast company, Internet company or someone with deep pockets) will eventually try to use the GAA football in particular to establish themselves, like Sky did in the UK 30 years ago, and others have done too.

    The bones of the structure will eventually be tried, whether it works or not longterm I don't know. The drive towards elitism, facilitated by those based in Croke Park, the GAA hierarchy and the GPA, will eventually cause a spilt between club and county.

    The draft thing, I don't know how that would work here. I always find it fascinating in the most capitalist country in the world, where the word socialist is a cuss word, operates a proper draft system that works towards equity in their elite sports and works against the bigger, more successful teams. If it works there, it can work anywhere, but I don't know how it would work here.

    Also the salary cap.... Yea right. Paddy doesn't work like that, look at the 'expanses' and stuff washing around the game now, when it's supposed to be amateur. We're too crooked to make that work, and the culture here isn't one to enforce rules like that.

    It mightn’t happens exactly like orourke says with a draft or salary cap but the bones of what orourke is talking about will happen. It’s how elite sport works on every country on earth.


  • Registered Users Posts: 66 ✭✭ RoversCeltic


    I've said that here and elsewhere, that an outside influence (a sponsor, broadcast company, Internet company or someone with deep pockets) will eventually try to use the GAA football in particular to establish themselves, like Sky did in the UK 30 years ago, and others have done too.

    The bones of the structure will eventually be tried, whether it works or not longterm I don't know. The drive towards elitism, facilitated by those based in Croke Park, the GAA hierarchy and the GPA, will eventually cause a spilt between club and county.

    The draft thing, I don't know how that would work here. I always find it fascinating in the most capitalist country in the world, where the word socialist is a cuss word, operates a proper draft system that works towards equity in their elite sports and works against the bigger, more successful teams. If it works there, it can work anywhere, but I don't know how it would work here.

    Also the salary cap.... Yea right. Paddy doesn't work like that, look at the 'expanses' and stuff washing around the game now, when it's supposed to be amateur. We're too crooked to make that work, and the culture here isn't one to enforce rules like that.

    i think you are over estimating how popular GAA is in Ireland, playing numbers are poor, viewing figures are poor i.e a couple of 100000 for most championship game, the all ireland hurling and football finals combined get lower figures than a big football game

    we have a small population and in our only big city GAA isnt overly popu;ar

    think again


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,343 ✭✭✭✭ Donald Trump


    Dots1982 wrote: »
    It mightn’t happens exactly like orourke says with a draft or salary cap but the bones of what orourke is talking about will happen. It’s how elite sport works on every country on earth.


    Sure look at how well the FAI did out of it. (And they were playing probably the second most popular sport worldwide.) Flying they are. And world class facilities for all the local soccerball clubs :pac:


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,343 ✭✭✭✭ Donald Trump


    i think you are over estimating how popular GAA is in Ireland, playing numbers are poor, viewing figures are poor i.e a couple of 100000 for most championship game, the all ireland hurling and football finals combined get lower figures than a big football game

    we have a small population and in our only big city GAA isnt overly popu;ar

    think again


    What would you think has better "playing numbers".

    There are 12 adult football divisions in Dublin leagues (that's not including the hurling as well). With about 16 teams per division. Say 20 per team as that is what could get their game every week. That multiplies up to say over 3800 adults playing the game week-in-week out in Dublin alone. Dublin would have more competition due to other available sports.

    What do you think has better playing numbers? Soccerball? How many soccer players in Dublin? Given the smaller teamsize. Are there more than 200 adult soccer teams playing in Dublin every week?

    I mean competitive games. If you want to count fat fellas trying to do keepy-uppies while balancing their tins of Bavaria on their bellies in the local park then that's not really serious. It would be a bit like saying that athletics is a huge sport in Ireland because a good few people do 10 mins on the treadmill when they make it to the gym.


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,830 ✭✭✭✭ Strumms


    Amalgamation of counties, ok. But you’d need to be careful...

    You could see the benefit of a LOUTH/LEITRIM side certainly, more competitive, more interest in the region etc.. MEATH/WEST MEATH the same...


    What about if Galway and Mayo were to merge... could or would the GAA refuse ?


    Do we just merge until there are 15/16 teams and Dublin get beaten ? Is that the end game ?


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Wouldn’t like to see the counties going, you’d kill off the GAA going that route as it’s what makes it what it is really. When Dublin stop winning so much he’ll calm all this rubbish down anyway.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,986 ✭✭✭ Sunny Disposition


    It’s a good idea I think. Gives guys from disadvantaged counties a chance. Plus Intercounty is destroying the club game, ridiculous that club hurling not being played regularly all summer in every county.


  • Registered Users Posts: 33,614 ✭✭✭✭ PTH2009


    Franchises with there catchment areas (Max 3 counties)

    South East Vikings (Waterford/Kilkenny/Wexford)
    Shannon Warriors (Tipp/Limerick/Clare)
    The Blacksmiths (Sligo/Leitrim/Roscommon)
    The Strikers (West Cork/Kerry)
    The Red Polos (East Cork)
    The Lone Wolves (Carlow/Kildare/Wicklow)
    The Midland Kings (Offaly/Laois/Westmeath)
    The Western Wilds (Galway/Mayo)
    The Red Deers (Donegal/Derry/Tyrone)
    Blue Dogs (Longford/Cavan/Fermanagh)
    The Celts (Monaghan/Louth/Meath)
    The Black Lanterns (Armagh/Antrim/Down)
    City Ramblers (North Dublin)
    The Swans (South Dublin)
    The Expats (UK/Europe Teams)
    The Fighters (USA team

    League each team plays each other home and
    away (April-November) with top 6 going into the next round

    Playoffs (All played in Croke Park)
    QFs (3rd vs 6th and 4th vs 5th)
    SFs( 1st and 2nd placed teams vs QF winners)
    Grand Final (First Sunday in December)

    Off season is til February


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,958 Dots1982


    PTH2009 wrote: »
    Franchises with there catchment areas (Max 3 counties)

    South East Vikings (Waterford/Kilkenny/Wexford)
    Shannon Warriors (Tipp/Limerick/Clare)
    The Blacksmiths (Sligo/Leitrim/Roscommon)
    The Strikers (West Cork/Kerry)
    The Red Polos (East Cork)
    The Lone Wolves (Carlow/Kildare/Wicklow)
    The Midland Kings (Offaly/Laois/Westmeath)
    The Western Wilds (Galway/Mayo)
    The Red Deers (Donegal/Derry/Tyrone)
    Blue Dogs (Longford/Cavan/Fermanagh)
    The Celts (Monaghan/Louth/Meath)
    The Black Lanterns (Armagh/Antrim/Down)
    City Ramblers (North Dublin)
    The Swans (South Dublin)
    The Expats (UK/Europe Teams)
    The Fighters (USA team

    League each team plays each other home and
    away (April-November) with top 6 going into the next round

    Playoffs (All played in Croke Park)
    QFs (3rd vs 6th and 4th vs 5th)
    SFs( 1st and 2nd placed teams vs QF winners)
    Grand Final (First Sunday in December)

    Off season is til February

    Get rid of the expats and fighters. They wouldn’t be near the standard ever and couldn’t train as a team. London abs New York can compete in the all Ireland junior championship with Lanchashire


  • Subscribers Posts: 36,657 ✭✭✭✭ sydthebeat


    Not enough viewers and thus TV revenue to even contemplate this


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,958 Dots1982


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    Not enough viewers and thus TV revenue to even contemplate this

    How can you tell that it won’t have viewers?


  • Subscribers Posts: 36,657 ✭✭✭✭ sydthebeat


    Dots1982 wrote: »
    How can you tell that it won’t have viewers?

    i didnt actually say that , did i?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,958 Dots1982


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    i didnt actually say that , did i?

    Being pedantic this Monday are we?


  • Subscribers Posts: 36,657 ✭✭✭✭ sydthebeat


    Dots1982 wrote: »
    Being pedantic this Monday are we?

    seriously???

    either debate what i said or leave it.

    i'm not going to argue with you over something i didnt say to begin with.


    to break it down easier for you, ireland, even taking in a wider diaspora, wouldnt have the TV viewers (and thus TV revenue) sufficient to create anything like the AFL system, even on a semi pro basis.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,958 Dots1982


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    seriously???

    either debate what i said or leave it.

    i'm not going to argue with you over something i didnt say to begin with.


    to break it down easier for you, ireland, even taking in a wider diaspora, wouldnt have the TV viewers (and thus TV revenue) sufficient to create anything like the AFL system, even on a semi pro basis.

    Enhance your calm John Spartan.

    I think GAA can be supported at pro level. If you don’t fair enough but elite sports people in every country get paid. Seems strange that Ireland is the worlds only country that couldn’t support it. If countries smaller and poorer than ours can support women’s professional leagues of basketball and volleyball I don’t see how a rich country like Ireland can’t support a pro version of GAA.


  • Subscribers Posts: 36,657 ✭✭✭✭ sydthebeat


    Dots1982 wrote: »
    Enhance your calm John Spartan.

    I think GAA can be supported at pro level. If you don’t fair enough but elite sports people in every country get paid. Seems strange that Ireland is the worlds only country that couldn’t support it. If countries smaller and poorer than ours can support women’s professional leagues of basketball and volleyball I don’t see how a rich country like Ireland can’t support a pro version of GAA.

    The obvious answer is that its the unilateral aspect of the sport.
    Coupled on top of that the small population we have and limited market / audience for the sport.

    Do you think TV revenue is going to significantly increase to pay these players?

    https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/columnists/paul-rouse/go-figure-how-the-gaas-sky-numbers-really-stack-up-377396.html


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,958 Dots1982


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    The obvious answer is that its the unilateral aspect of the sport.
    Coupled on top of that the small population we have and limited market / audience for the sport.

    Do you think TV revenue is going to significantly increase to pay these players?

    https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/columnists/paul-rouse/go-figure-how-the-gaas-sky-numbers-really-stack-up-377396.html

    What do you mean by the unilateral aspect of sport?


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  • Subscribers Posts: 36,657 ✭✭✭✭ sydthebeat


    Dots1982 wrote: »
    What do you mean by the unilateral aspect of sport?

    unilateral, in that its a sport that affects only one nation


This discussion has been closed.
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