False rape accusation...who would you believe?

Recent story concerning a UK woman in Cyprus.


https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/dec/30/briton-found-guilty-over-ayia-napa-false-claim-cyprus


Given the particular damage to reputation involved, I think there should be a specific crime of false rape allegation....and it should carry a similar sentence to the alleged rape crime.

Reviews and Books Galore wrote: »

silverharp wrote:

why does she have anonymity?

I guess she was only 18, but I am shocked and disinheartened how much support she has and people are really not investigating it.

Surely if she was 18 when the offense happened she would be treated the same as any adult?

Nintendo Lite wrote: »

I don't know about "sociologically", but by definition, if the the punishment for rape is appropriate in severity for the act of rape, then it seems appropriate and logical that falsely accusing someone of rape should be punished similarly to the punishment the accused would have received had they been convicted.

I don't quite understand the logic at play here?

Here's the logic I apply here to it:
Crime 'A' attracts a certain sentence depending on it's severity.
Crime 'B' attracts a certain sentence depending on it's severity.

Crime 'A' is different to crime 'B' so should be assessed differently.

Phoebas wrote: »

I don't quite understand the logic at play here?

Here's the logic I apply here to it:
Crime 'A' attracts a certain sentence depending on it's severity.
Crime 'B' attracts a certain sentence depending on it's severity.

Crime 'A' is different to crime 'B' so should be assessed differently.

That doesn't consider the gender of the accused.

Men receive drastically different sentences for the same crimes than women in the courts.

We can get used to these trials as time goes on, we live in that kind of society.

The men won't always be innocent and the woman cannot always be believed...it is not fair to punish only one gender for a crime or allegation that can define the rest of their lives.

In this case, i'd imagine the video content and her behaviour after she reported the crime is what got her convicted, if true, she should be facing a lot longer than one year in jail.

I'm willing to be wrong, these cases are nuanced more often than not!

Silentcorner wrote: »

I'm willing to be wrong, these cases are nuanced more often than not!

Every case is nuanced, so sentencing should be very specific to the case.
That's why the idea that very different crimes should attract the same sentence is daft.

In particular, violent crimes (like rape) should, in general, attract custodial sentences, whereas non-violent crimes should, in general, not.

"Reviews wrote:

Tbh, I am always supiscious of how against punishing false accusations some people are. I kind of wonder if they commited micro accusations of calling a man creepy when they were younger?

Regarding your first sentence, I do find it strange: false accusers increase suspicion on other accusers. I think it is quite likely connected with gender and:
(I) people not having as much sympathy for male victims of all sorts;
(ii) people not liking to see females face harsh punishments. I don’t know is it because women are seen as not being able to control their actions or what but there again seems to be a willingness to treat males and females differently.

Silentcorner wrote: »

Violent crimes damage a person, non violent crimes, like a false rape accusation damage the system affecting genuine victims of rape, not to mention the damage to a mans reputation which will alter his life.

I know how I rate those various damages.

Nintendo Lite wrote: »

They are different and similar in severity in my opinion. Non violent crimes can be more severe than violent crimes.

True, but I'm sure you'll agree that, on the scale of violent crimes, rape is up there amongst the most serious.

Silentcorner wrote: »

There is nothing on the statute books about false rape accusations.

If that's true, I'm sure everyone would agree it should be changed.

Still, false rape allegation != actual rape.

Silentcorner wrote: »

I get the problem.

But then we have to ask, is all rape the same? Is all sexual assault the same...

I don't have the answer to that by the way, should it be graded better/clearer, if so, then what grade would a false rape accusation equal....

We live in a society that needs to begin to reflect the new realities, it is not an easy discussion and in many cases we are not discussing it at all, politicians won't touch of it and The Women's Council cannot be trusted to be anywhere near impartial enough.

I get confused between the situation in different legal jurisdictions. I think in the UK, the minimum sentence for rape is five years. As you say, there are different levels of severity.

Phoebas wrote: »

Silentcorner wrote:

There is nothing on the statute books about false rape accusations.

If that's true, I'm sure everyone would agree it should be changed.

I think many/most politicians would be wary of pushing too hard for legislation. A lot of people want the problem of false accusations brushed under the carpet.

I don't believe we live in a patriarchal society where decisions are routinely made to suit men. I think this is one example.

Phoebas wrote: »

I do.

Not all rapes are the same; in severity or otherwise.
Not all sexual assaults are the same; in severity or otherwise.
Different crimes are not the same. The crime of rape is not the same as a false accusation of rape and both should be considered seperatly.

I think that should be obvious to all.

I'm not sure that they should receive exactly the same sentence. However I think a strong argument can be made that the severity of the punishment for rape and similar crimes should probably influence the severity of punishment for false accusations.

Falsely accusing someone of stealing €10 say and falsely accusing someone of sexual assault or rape could both be seen as very similar: lies. But that doesn't mean the punishments should be the same for the false accusations.

Currently I get the impression the punishments for false accusations of sexual assault and rape tend to be quite weak and formal discussions about punishments tend not to look how badly can affect people (usually men).

I find it quite unsatisfactory the way some people tend to want tough punishments for men and light ones for women. For example, the new domestic violence laws make having had relationship with the victim an aggravating factor, but when women injure and sometimes kill their men suddenly people want to make lots of excuses and basically it seems having a previous relationship is seen more as a mitigating factor. I can accept that some people are left-wing in terms of the law and order and others are right-wing but I find it very frustrating the way people become left-wing when it's punishment for females generally, and right-wing when it's punishment for males.

.. also I agree with wanting more equal treatment for men in how we are are treated in the justice system.

I'd prefer not to hitch my wagon with rapists.

Potatoeman wrote: »

Rape is a violent crime and handled by the criminal court. A false claim is ‘wasting police time’ and minor crime but could be followed by a reputational damage claim in the civil court maybe a loss of future earnings etc...

complete rubish.
a false rape claim is an matitius and viscious attack on the victim and an attempt to ruin their good name . it is an atempt to distroy the victim. the consequenses to the victim are very real and life changing. an acusation like that never goes away. and that is ony if they are provn inocent . if they are found guilty then ts a lot worse. sex ofenders register, jail time etc

the_pen_turner wrote: »

i course the crimes are diferent.
but a false rape claim should carry a very similar punishment. it is a very serious crime probably one of the worst crimes you could do to someone

Yeah, as a man I used to think like this.

But then I had a look at the impact of rape accusations on peoples' lives. And you know, it's not actually the world-ending thing that we traditionally tell ourselves it is.

It is no doubt humiliating and deeply upsetting. Mentally difficult and all the rest.

But it's far from life-destroying. Look at the Belfast rape trial. Paddy Jackson is now back playing rugby professionally and earning a great wage. And that wasn't even a false rape allegation. So even when a plausible rape allegation is made, someone's life isn't destroyed. Paddy Jackson's career was "disrupted" by it, and that's about it. Whatever reputational damage has been suffered, is small and short-lived.

The worst part about rape allegations is the personal relationships that it poisons - for the accused and the accuser. Regardless of the truth, some relationships will break down and be lost forever.

Like I say, I too used to feel that a false rape allegation was indeed a devastating, life-destroying crime against a man. On reflection, in fact it doesn't seem to be. After the intial fallout everyone moves on, including the accused.

It should be treated as a serious crime. But it's not as serious as rape. It's not even close.

seamus wrote: »

Yeah, as a man I used to think like this.

But then I had a look at the impact of rape accusations on peoples' lives. And you know, it's not actually the world-ending thing that we traditionally tell ourselves it is.

It is no doubt humiliating and deeply upsetting. Mentally difficult and all the rest.

But it's far from life-destroying. Look at the Belfast rape trial. Paddy Jackson is now back playing rugby professionally and earning a great wage. And that wasn't even a false rape allegation. So even when a plausible rape allegation is made, someone's life isn't destroyed. Paddy Jackson's career was "disrupted" by it, and that's about it. Whatever reputational damage has been suffered, is small and short-lived.

The worst part about rape allegations is the personal relationships that it poisons - for the accused and the accuser. Regardless of the truth, some relationships will break down and be lost forever.

Like I say, I too used to feel that a false rape allegation was indeed a devastating, life-destroying crime against a man. On reflection, in fact it doesn't seem to be. After the intial fallout everyone moves on, including the accused.

It should be treated as a serious crime. But it's not as serious as rape. It's not even close.

not sure i agree with that. once those alagations are made it will always be hanging over you.

as for the paddy jackson case. the fact it was so public helps him. everyone knows he is inocent. some dont choose to believe it but all the facts are there for everyone to see
if that was an ordinary case im not sure his name would be cleared as much as it is. even the fact we are taalking about it now shows the effect it can have. this will always be following him around

the_pen_turner wrote: »

i course the crimes are diferent.
but a false rape claim should carry a very similar punishment. it is a very serious crime probably one of the worst crimes you could do to someone

I disagree.

1. The crime you are describing is libel. It already exists.

2. No one here is saying how you PROVE a false conviction. Most instances of rape will not have the evidence for a prosecution to go anywhere. The only way prove an accusation is false to the same extent that we attempt to prove it is true, is to have further time and money spent on a police investigation where it must be proven that the accuser was knowingly lying. Which, even if it happened - is not usually going to be possible.

3. Considering the disregard people in this thread have for protecting actual rape victims, and making it possibly to report crimes, such laws would only serve to dissuade rape victims, leaving more rapists on the streets, and increasing rape over all.

4. Even in this thread we see a lack of evidence that men's lives are being ruined. We hear about it being hard on him, but these men still go onto have families, kids and careers. A lot of rape victims get PTSD, anxiety, struggle to ever have relationships with men or normal sexual relationships. Many attempt suicide.

5. Most instances or rape are not strangers in dark alleys. and as such its possible that rape cases exist where neither party is entirely wrong. They disagree over whether consent was there. This is why an honest belief of consent is a defense. But we also know that psychologically freezing is defense mechanism along with fight or flight. I believe this is one of the biggest reasons we have men claiming they were falsely accused - when the accuser absolutely does not believe themselves to be lying, because they are not.
Instances, often where alcohol is involved where the accuser does honestly believe the accused knew they didn't want it. They were unresponsive, incoherent, they froze, they indicated that they were uncomfortable or in pain and actually thought the other person knew they didn't want it.
Now the accused might have not looked, or cared much about any of these clues (which is why consent is important, and active consent will save many men from this stress). They didn't notice, didn't pay attention, didn't hear her, thought that was normal etc etc.

The accused blames the accuser - "if she didn't want it she would have fought harder! She must have just changed her mind". Is the assumption they come to, because most people don't want to consider that their selfishness, callousness and plain stupidity made them deeply hurt another person.