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False rape accusation...who would you believe?

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    #302
    ZuluDawn2020
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13 ✭ZuluDawn2020


    We have due process and courts of law for a reason.
    Defendents are innocent until proven guilty.
    Guilt can only be established when it is beyond reasonable doubt.
    The 12 members of the jury decide guilty or not guilty.
    Not the accuser the cops who investigated the defense or the prosecution or the audience in the court any politicians press commentators or social media.
    The hysteria which has followed recent high profile rape cases is a danger to our civilized society.
    The confidentiality and anonymity of the ballot box and the right to be tried by a jury of your peers and the entitlement to your good name and innocence until proven guilty are the corner stones of a free society.


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    #303
    jimwallace197
    Registered Users Posts: 1,134 ✭✭✭jimwallace197


    Reviews and Books Galore wrote: »
    What a nice life we're giving young men. Having to behave like stoic husbands at the age of 18, while women can be wild and individualistic.

    Very true. We live in an age where men(successful or not, although if you are successful, you are more at risk) are a target for any woman who has been rejected or feels like revenge.

    How we have let this serious infringement of a males basic human rights in the western world be overridded by baseless accusations mystifies me.

    Men nowadays are nothing better than second class citizens, always under suspicion, and in the frame for any lunatic that wants to throw around some accusations without proper proof and evidence. We are expected to man up (shut up in other words), get on with it & be grateful for any affections that come our way & be chivalrous whilst our partners can do whatever they want.

    What will it take before we do something about it, how many more men need to be falsely/accused, imprisoned before we stand up for ourselves. Its not going to get any better.

    I know it sounds harsh but it really has got this bad.


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    #304
    jimwallace197
    Registered Users Posts: 1,134 ✭✭✭jimwallace197


    ZuluDawn2020 wrote: »
    We have due process and courts of law for a reason.
    Defendents are innocent until proven guilty.
    Guilt can only be established when it is beyond reasonable doubt.
    The 12 members of the jury decide guilty or not guilty.
    Not the accuser the cops who investigated the defense or the prosecution or the audience in the court any politicians press commentators or social media.
    The hysteria which has followed recent high profile rape cases is a danger to our civilized society.
    The confidentiality and anonymity of the ballot box and the right to be tried by a jury of your peers and the entitlement to your good name and innocence until proven guilty are the corner stones of a free society.

    Do you realise how stressful it is for a person and their family to be put through a court of law before the outcome is determined??

    What about the police/gards do their job and actually properly investigate these false claims such as looking through the accusers phone & those around them to see if they have any proper basis or not. This negligence was highlighted in recent cases in the uk. Not good enough anymore.

    Also, there should be more serious consequences for people who have made false accusations like this. Look at the pitifully low imprisonment rate for accusations of this type. No deterrent whatsoever.

    People like this ruin lives, not just the accused but their family as well.


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    #305
    bcklschaps
    Registered Users Posts: 1,065 ✭✭✭bcklschaps


    Recent story concerning a UK woman in Cyprus.


    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/dec/30/briton-found-guilty-over-ayia-napa-false-claim-cyprus


    Given the particular damage to reputation involved, I think there should be a specific crime of false rape allegation....and it should carry a similar sentence to the alleged rape crime.


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    #306
    Phoebas
    Registered Users Posts: 9,370 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    bcklschaps wrote: »
    Recent story concerning a UK woman in Cyprus.


    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/dec/30/briton-found-guilty-over-ayia-napa-false-claim-cyprus


    Given the particular damage to reputation involved, I think there should be a specific crime of false rape allegation....and it should carry a similar sentence to the alleged rape crime.
    Why would it carry a similar sentence?
    They are very different crimes with very different impacts on the victim?


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    #307
    Reviews and Books Galore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 964 ✭✭✭Reviews and Books Galore


    silverharp wrote: »
    why does she have anonymity?


    I guess she was only 18, but I am shocked and disinheartened how much support she has and people are really not investigating it. I guess it's to do with her being a British citizen, but I really am shocked how much support she is recieving.



    I guess in a few years there will be a triumphant movie proving her innocence.


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    #308
    Reviews and Books Galore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 964 ✭✭✭Reviews and Books Galore


    Phoebas wrote: »
    Why would it carry a similar sentence?
    They are very different crimes with very different impacts on the victim?


    It really doesn't. Sociologically speaking, a false accusation is very similar to rape.



    Tbh, I am always supiscious of how against punishing false accusations some people are. I kind of wonder if they commited micro accusations of calling a man creepy when they were younger?


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    #309
    iptba
    Registered Users Posts: 4,876 ✭✭✭iptba


    Reviews and Books Galore wrote: »
    silverharp wrote:
    why does she have anonymity?
    I guess she was only 18, but I am shocked and disinheartened how much support she has and people are really not investigating it.
    Surely if she was 18 when the offense happened she would be treated the same as any adult?


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    #310
    bcklschaps
    Registered Users Posts: 1,065 ✭✭✭bcklschaps


    Recent story concerning a UK woman in Cyprus.


    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/dec/30/briton-found-guilty-over-ayia-napa-false-claim-cyprus


    Given the particular damage to reputation involved, I think there should be a specific crime of false rape allegation....and it should carry a similar sentence to the alleged rape crime.


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    #311
    Reviews and Books Galore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 964 ✭✭✭Reviews and Books Galore


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    the court of twitter opinion is crazy, have seen this on facebook a few times today and every woman throwing the kitchen sink at anyone not buying the "she was raped and it was all the entire justice systems fault that shes made out to be a liar" line.


    My post above might touch on that. I find it bizarre how absurdly defenseive a lot of people are getting towards her. I mean, there is actually video evidence that goes against her story, a lot of the people supposedly involved weren't even there, and she willingly took back her statement and told her mother that she was safe and had it under control.


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    #312
    Reviews and Books Galore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 964 ✭✭✭Reviews and Books Galore


    iptba wrote: »
    Surely if she was 18 when the offense happened she would be treated the same as any adult?


    I have a bit of girls will be girls mentality here. False accusations is just part of female dynamics imo, and it's something you grow out of. And you have to balance a woman not recanting her testimony vs making another woman afraid to make a false statement.



    As a sidenote, I don't believe this will stop any woman coming forward as it really is difficult to prove a false statement.


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    #313
    pablo128
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,221 ✭✭✭pablo128


    Reviews and Books Galore wrote: »
    I guess in a few years there will be a triumphant movie proving her innocence.

    Unfortunately for her, there is already a movie.


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    #314
    Phoebas
    Registered Users Posts: 9,370 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    Reviews and Books Galore wrote: »
    Sociologically speaking, a false accusation is very similar to rape.

    Sociologically speaking?
    What does that even mean in the context of those two offences?


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    #315
    Reviews and Books Galore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 964 ✭✭✭Reviews and Books Galore


    I probably won't post that much about this, but the article linked in this thread is shockingly one sided. It completely ignores the changing stories, and various evidence that the prosecution were able to give.


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    #316
    Reviews and Books Galore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 964 ✭✭✭Reviews and Books Galore


    Phoebas wrote: »
    Sociologically speaking?
    What does that even mean in the context of those two offences?


    Honestly, if you can't see how a flase accusation is just as bad as rape, then I cannot be bothered talking to you.


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    #317
    Phoebas
    Registered Users Posts: 9,370 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    Nintendo Lite wrote: »
    I don't know about "sociologically", but by definition, if the the punishment for rape is appropriate in severity for the act of rape, then it seems appropriate and logical that falsely accusing someone of rape should be punished similarly to the punishment the accused would have received had they been convicted.

    I don't quite understand the logic at play here?

    Here's the logic I apply here to it:
    Crime 'A' attracts a certain sentence depending on it's severity.
    Crime 'B' attracts a certain sentence depending on it's severity.

    Crime 'A' is different to crime 'B' so should be assessed differently.


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    #318
    Phoebas
    Registered Users Posts: 9,370 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    Reviews and Books Galore wrote: »
    Honestly, if you can't see how a flase accusation is just as bad as rape, then I cannot be bothered talking to you.
    If I don't immediately agree with you then you won't enter into discussion, on a discussion site.
    OK.


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    #319
    Silentcorner
    Registered Users Posts: 6,220 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    Phoebas wrote: »
    I don't quite understand the logic at play here?

    Here's the logic I apply here to it:
    Crime 'A' attracts a certain sentence depending on it's severity.
    Crime 'B' attracts a certain sentence depending on it's severity.

    Crime 'A' is different to crime 'B' so should be assessed differently.

    That doesn't consider the gender of the accused.

    Men receive drastically different sentences for the same crimes than women in the courts.

    We can get used to these trials as time goes on, we live in that kind of society.

    The men won't always be innocent and the woman cannot always be believed...it is not fair to punish only one gender for a crime or allegation that can define the rest of their lives.

    In this case, i'd imagine the video content and her behaviour after she reported the crime is what got her convicted, if true, she should be facing a lot longer than one year in jail.

    I'm willing to be wrong, these cases are nuanced more often than not!


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    #320
    Reviews and Books Galore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 964 ✭✭✭Reviews and Books Galore


    The poster is obviously deflecting. Ignore it imo


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    #321
    Phoebas
    Registered Users Posts: 9,370 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    Silentcorner wrote: »

    I'm willing to be wrong, these cases are nuanced more often than not!

    Every case is nuanced, so sentencing should be very specific to the case.
    That's why the idea that very different crimes should attract the same sentence is daft.

    In particular, violent crimes (like rape) should, in general, attract custodial sentences, whereas non-violent crimes should, in general, not.


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    #322
    Phoebas
    Registered Users Posts: 9,370 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    Nintendo Lite wrote: »
    The logic is that that the severity of the punishment for rape matches the severity of rape. Therefore inflicting the severity of the punishment of rape on someone is on a par with the severity of rape and should receive the punishment for rape as it is of the same severity.
    I gotta say, I don't see the logic in that.
    Both are serious but very different - a major difference is that one is a violent crime - worse - involves sexual violence.


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    #323
    iptba
    Registered Users Posts: 4,876 ✭✭✭iptba


    "Reviews wrote:


    Tbh, I am always supiscious of how against punishing false accusations some people are. I kind of wonder if they commited micro accusations of calling a man creepy when they were younger?
    Regarding your first sentence, I do find it strange: false accusers increase suspicion on other accusers. I think it is quite likely connected with gender and:
    (I) people not having as much sympathy for male victims of all sorts;
    (ii) people not liking to see females face harsh punishments. I don’t know is it because women are seen as not being able to control their actions or what but there again seems to be a willingness to treat males and females differently.


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    #324
    Silentcorner
    Registered Users Posts: 6,220 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    Phoebas wrote: »
    Every case is nuanced, so sentencing should be very specific to the case.
    That's why the idea that very different crimes should attract the same sentence is daft.

    In particular, violent crimes (like rape) should, in general, attract custodial sentences, whereas non-violent crimes should, in general, not.

    Violent crimes damage a person, non violent crimes, like a false rape accusation damage the system affecting genuine victims of rape, not to mention the damage to a mans reputation which will alter his life.

    This should not be a gendered issue, we all have a steak in a proper judicial system.

    There is enough imbalance between how each gender is treated in court as it is.


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    #325
    Phoebas
    Registered Users Posts: 9,370 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    Silentcorner wrote: »
    Violent crimes damage a person, non violent crimes, like a false rape accusation damage the system affecting genuine victims of rape, not to mention the damage to a mans reputation which will alter his life.
    I know how I rate those various damages.


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    #326
    Silentcorner
    Registered Users Posts: 6,220 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    Phoebas wrote: »
    I know how I rate those various damages.

    So do I.


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    #327
    Phoebas
    Registered Users Posts: 9,370 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    Nintendo Lite wrote: »
    They are different and similar in severity in my opinion. Non violent crimes can be more severe than violent crimes.

    True, but I'm sure you'll agree that, on the scale of violent crimes, rape is up there amongst the most serious.


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    #328
    Silentcorner
    Registered Users Posts: 6,220 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    Phoebas wrote: »
    True, but I'm sure you'll agree that, on the scale of violent crimes, rape is up there amongst the most serious.

    Correct, the statue book reflects that...

    Statutory Rape only impacts one gender though...

    There is nothing on the statute books about false rape accusations.


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    #329
    Phoebas
    Registered Users Posts: 9,370 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    Silentcorner wrote: »
    There is nothing on the statute books about false rape accusations.

    If that's true, I'm sure everyone would agree it should be changed.

    Still, false rape allegation != actual rape.


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    #330
    Silentcorner
    Registered Users Posts: 6,220 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    Phoebas wrote: »
    If that's true, I'm sure everyone would agree it should be changed.

    Still, false rape allegation != actual rape.

    I get the problem.

    But then we have to ask, is all rape the same? Is all sexual assault the same...

    I don't have the answer to that by the way, should it be graded better/clearer, if so, then what grade would a false rape accusation equal....

    We live in a society that needs to begin to reflect the new realities, it is not an easy discussion and in many cases we are not discussing it at all, politicians won't touch of it and The Women's Council cannot be trusted to be anywhere near impartial enough.


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    #331
    iptba
    Registered Users Posts: 4,876 ✭✭✭iptba


    Silentcorner wrote: »
    I get the problem.

    But then we have to ask, is all rape the same? Is all sexual assault the same...

    I don't have the answer to that by the way, should it be graded better/clearer, if so, then what grade would a false rape accusation equal....

    We live in a society that needs to begin to reflect the new realities, it is not an easy discussion and in many cases we are not discussing it at all, politicians won't touch of it and The Women's Council cannot be trusted to be anywhere near impartial enough.
    I get confused between the situation in different legal jurisdictions. I think in the UK, the minimum sentence for rape is five years. As you say, there are different levels of severity.


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