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Wealth distribution through property taxation
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On what basis are inheritance tax allowances changed?0
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Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »Of course it has. Do you think I don’t know what income tax is? The inheritance beneficiary didn’t pay that income tax.
That’s regardless, do you believe in double taxation? Do you not think a parent t should work hard to provide for their child? What incentives do you think there should be to crest wealth?0 -
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Anybody reading this who doesn't understand the details regarding Inheritance Tax look up the Revenue Commissioners website.
If you think it is likely to affect you get some good professional advice.
It can be avoided and it's legal to do so.0 -
No it’s not ,
40% paye, add on PRSI and USC...
USC is also a double tax, because it’s a tax on money into a pension and money out of a pension.
You should learn about how tax rates apply to your income. If you've been paying 52% tax on your income you're owed money back. You should contact revenue.0 -
Wildly over simplified
The inequality as you call it has happened long before inheritance, growing up in a better area , going to a better school, getting a better 3rd level education
What’s your solution for equality ?
You forgot the two greatest sources of inequality, being smarter and having a better work ethic.0 -
I've not much against the current system, but why would I have to give what I sacrificed to save, to those that don't save?We're at full employment in this economy, yet some people here think all their tax money is being spent on social welfare recipients.
They pay a rent according to their means. So, if they are on Social Welfare, they pay a pittance. People classify it as "free", as the money isn't earned; it comes from the government. A small percentage of the their free money from the government goes towards the massively (government) subsidised rent. Thus, they live essentially rent free.Do people in council houses pay a rent albeit well below market rate?
It'll be interesting how much the 100k inheritance will affect her being means tested.Well just as an example, Margaret Cash takes home 49k net and has never worked a day in her life.0 -
That’s regardless, do you believe in double taxation? Do you not think a parent t should work hard to provide for their child? What incentives do you think there should be to crest wealth?
What’s that now?
Do you think there’s no motivation to accumulate wealth if not all of it can be bequeathed? I can think of plenty of benefits that serve as motivators for wealth-building.
And the tax goes into a big pot. We all benefit from taxation.0 -
ZeroThreat wrote: »A lot of jealous begrudgery going on in this thread. The OP also has the customary axe to grind against Dubliners for the fact their kids can often live at home a little longer so wants to tax parents into oblivion.
People are jealous AND begrudging, no less? You got both hoary old cliches into the one sentence. Well done.We're at full employment in this economy, yet some people here think all their tax money is being spent on social welfare recipients.
For the average effective rate of tax you pay of 14%, 26% goes to the DEASP. 10% of the total exchequor or 40% of the DEASP goes on pensions, eligable to all, but a larger portion is only eligible to PRSI contributors.
5% of the total exchequor goes to work suppliments, the largest portion of which are not those who are permanently unemployed, but who are in and out of employment making PRSI contributions.
https://whereyourmoneygoes.gov.ie/en/
Exactly. The whinging about social welfare recipients is tiresome. I am one and it’s the worst job ever. Barely anyone willingly applies.0 -
This has been a really interesting topic to read. It's a really emotive issue and there's so many little battlegrounds of discussion within it in regard to society, wealth and inequality. I'm going to touch on a few different threads I've seen mentioned in here.
1. I'll burn the money before I pay CAT.
Slow your roll. Your kids don't have to pay CAT if you don't want them to.
The most thanked post in this thread is a diatribe about how awful CAT is and calling for it to be abolished. Well I have great news, you don't need to wait for it to be abolished. If you don't want your kids to pay CAT then give a tax advisor a call. There is a huge industry in Ireland built on estate planning. If you're expecting that you'll be so laden with wealth by the time you pop your clogs then you can already start the process of protecting it.
2. Gripes about redistribution of wealth in the form of taxes
From the moment you came into the world you've been benefiting from the taxes paid by previous generations. Nobody pulls themselves up by their boot straps - the actual phrase exists because it's impossible, but somewhere along the way its been corrupted into "i EARNED this ALL BY MYSELF". Taxes paid for the nurses and doctors that delivered you, the teachers that taught you and the roads you traveled to your first job on. You took and took, long before you were able to pay in. Fair play if you worked hard in the years since and if you've generated enough wealth that you now have to take estate planning into account, congrats to you!
If you haven't been hoarding that wealth exclusively, you've likely been spending it in ways that give your offspring a headstart in life that you didn't get. Private education from playschool to primary to secondary. Private health insurance and dental for the whole family. Healthy food, a stable home, and a roof over their head. Sports camps, holidays and the Gaeltacht during the summer. Your children don't require loans or grants to get through 3rd Level education. They don't have to work part-time, or save for years for their post-grad. When they get their first professional job you sort them out with a deposit for a house.
These are the benefits of your wealth. You are living in them right now. These are incentive to work hard and smart in your life. Wealth is not about the jackpot that is payable on your death.
But here's the rub. You didn't create all that wealth by yourself. You generated it from other people. You owned a successful factory? Good for you. Did you birth the workforce yourself? Educated them too? Did you singlehandedly build the roads that delivered goods to and from the factory? No, no and no. But you and your family have benefited massively from taxes that did, and that's why the government wants a bigger cut from you every step of the way. If you don't like it, tough - this is the price of your wealthy successful life.
3. I'm getting double-taxed here
No you aren't. You're dead.
Your beneficiaries might be getting taxed if you've left them sums in excess of €335,000 and didn't do any estate planning. But that'd be your own stupid fault, so I refer to point #1.
4. I'll be damned if I'm giving scroungers/Margaret Cash more money to sit on their hole
As far as I know, the funds generated from CAT don't get siphoned off directly to whatever social welfare boogeyman these people are griping about. Taxes go toward improving society, that is nurses, Gardai, roads, teachers, carers for disabled people, jobseeker payments for those out of work, Further Education grants and courses etc etc
Obviously nobody is thrilled that there are people working the system, but does anyone think Margaret Cash's children would have even half a chance at escaping poverty without intervention? They have none of the advantages that hardworking parents give their children and their mother is a dope. So do we leave them penniless on the streets? Put each of her children into protective services at even greater expense to the taxpayer? Or give her the means to feed, clothe and raise them in a safe home, and allow them to have a somewhat normal life as they move through the education system?
I pay about €25k in income taxes each year. Margaret Cash is getting about €1.50 of that according to the site the user Sheeps linked earlier. Is she really worth the ire? Is she really the backbone of the argument about why you shouldn't have to pay more tax if you're doing well in life? She'd be the furthest thing from my mind when I look at my payslip.
5. The CAT thresholds make no sense and some are way too low
Fully agree. The Group A thresholds are fine, but B and C are a joke. I think it's user anewme that brought it up. A person with no children would see any gifts they give start to incur tax at €32k (nieces, nephews) or €16k (non-relatives). That's an absolute piss take, and even more reason to start talking with a tax advisor. That definitely needs to be reformed, but until then it's back to point #1 for anyone in this position.0 -
you see op , in a way I agree with you. But in this banana republic, where would all the extra tax levied go? on the obscene waste , wasters on welfare, the thieving in rte etc?
we have a fifty percent marginal rate of tax, that even hits the working poor, that is a disgrace! Here the money goes to the least worthy!!!0 -
Haven't read every single post yet but if CAT is made more punitive then people will just adjust their tactics to the new "game".
I understand you probably have good intentions OP but as the last poster says do you really think the increased tax take would be put to good use?
Unfortunately I would see it likely that much of it would be spent on unvouched expenses or given to people that would probably p*ss it all away anyway.0 -
This has been a really interesting topic to read. It's a really emotive issue and there's so many little battlegrounds of discussion within it in regard to society, wealth and inequality. I'm going to touch on a few different threads I've seen mentioned in here.
1. I'll burn the money before I pay CAT.
Slow your roll. Your kids don't have to pay CAT if you don't want them to.
The most thanked post in this thread is a diatribe about how awful CAT is and calling for it to be abolished. Well I have great news, you don't need to wait for it to be abolished. If you don't want your kids to pay CAT then give a tax advisor a call. There is a huge industry in Ireland built on estate planning. If you're expecting that you'll be so laden with wealth by the time you pop your clogs then you can already start the process of protecting it.
2. Gripes about redistribution of wealth in the form of taxes
From the moment you came into the world you've been benefiting from the taxes paid by previous generations. Nobody pulls themselves up by their boot straps - the actual phrase exists because it's impossible, but somewhere along the way its been corrupted into "i EARNED this ALL BY MYSELF". Taxes paid for the nurses and doctors that delivered you, the teachers that taught you and the roads you traveled to your first job on. You took and took, long before you were able to pay in. Fair play if you worked hard in the years since and if you've generated enough wealth that you now have to take estate planning into account, congrats to you!
If you haven't been hoarding that wealth exclusively, you've likely been spending it in ways that give your offspring a headstart in life that you didn't get. Private education from playschool to primary to secondary. Private health insurance and dental for the whole family. Healthy food, a stable home, and a roof over their head. Sports camps, holidays and the Gaeltacht during the summer. Your children don't require loans or grants to get through 3rd Level education. They don't have to work part-time, or save for years for their post-grad. When they get their first professional job you sort them out with a deposit for a house.
These are the benefits of your wealth. You are living in them right now. These are incentive to work hard and smart in your life. Wealth is not about the jackpot that is payable on your death.
But here's the rub. You didn't create all that wealth by yourself. You generated it from other people. You owned a successful factory? Good for you. Did you birth the workforce yourself? Educated them too? Did you singlehandedly build the roads that delivered goods to and from the factory? No, no and no. But you and your family have benefited massively from taxes that did, and that's why the government wants a bigger cut from you every step of the way. If you don't like it, tough - this is the price of your wealthy successful life.
3. I'm getting double-taxed here
No you aren't. You're dead.
Your beneficiaries might be getting taxed if you've left them sums in excess of €335,000 and didn't do any estate planning. But that'd be your own stupid fault, so I refer to point #1.
4. I'll be damned if I'm giving scroungers/Margaret Cash more money to sit on their hole
As far as I know, the funds generated from CAT don't get siphoned off directly to whatever social welfare boogeyman these people are griping about. Taxes go toward improving society, that is nurses, Gardai, roads, teachers, carers for disabled people, jobseeker payments for those out of work, Further Education grants and courses etc etc
Obviously nobody is thrilled that there are people working the system, but does anyone think Margaret Cash's children would have even half a chance at escaping poverty without intervention? They have none of the advantages that hardworking parents give their children and their mother is a dope. So do we leave them penniless on the streets? Put each of her children into protective services at even greater expense to the taxpayer? Or give her the means to feed, clothe and raise them in a safe home, and allow them to have a somewhat normal life as they move through the education system?
I pay about €25k in income taxes each year. Margaret Cash is getting about €1.50 of that according to the site the user Sheeps linked earlier. Is she really worth the ire? Is she really the backbone of the argument about why you shouldn't have to pay more tax if you're doing well in life? She'd be the furthest thing from my mind when I look at my payslip.
5. The CAT thresholds make no sense and some are way too low
Fully agree. The Group A thresholds are fine, but B and C are a joke. I think it's user anewme that brought it up. A person with no children would see any gifts they give start to incur tax at €32k (nieces, nephews) or €16k (non-relatives). That's an absolute piss take, and even more reason to start talking with a tax advisor. That definitely needs to be reformed, but until then it's back to point #1 for anyone in this position.
Very sensible post. Thanks for taking the time to post it. CAT seems to be the tax that really drives people up the wall, so much so that logic and reason go out the window. Good legal planning will mitigate some aspects of CAT for those lucky enough to be in receipt of something which is worth enough to generate a liability.0 -
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Sure why tax somebodies windfall? They are happy to throw out obscene amounts to Margaret cash for life and her ilk , no questions asked!0
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And bringing that one back from Syria and the dosh which will be spent on her from now on.0
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Idbatterim wrote: »Sure why tax somebodies windfall? They are happy to throw out obscene amounts to Margaret cash for life and her ilk , no questions asked!
Kind of amazing we can have a post like this so soon after a detailed and reasoned submission on the topic like that of Umaro a few posts above it.0 -
This has been a really interesting topic to read. It's a really emotive issue and there's so many little battlegrounds of discussion within it in regard to society, wealth and inequality. I'm going to touch on a few different threads I've seen mentioned in here.
1. I'll burn the money before I pay CAT.
Slow your roll. Your kids don't have to pay CAT if you don't want them to.
The most thanked post in this thread is a diatribe about how awful CAT is and calling for it to be abolished. Well I have great news, you don't need to wait for it to be abolished. If you don't want your kids to pay CAT then give a tax advisor a call. There is a huge industry in Ireland built on estate planning. If you're expecting that you'll be so laden with wealth by the time you pop your clogs then you can already start the process of protecting it.
2. Gripes about redistribution of wealth in the form of taxes
From the moment you came into the world you've been benefiting from the taxes paid by previous generations. Nobody pulls themselves up by their boot straps - the actual phrase exists because it's impossible, but somewhere along the way its been corrupted into "i EARNED this ALL BY MYSELF". Taxes paid for the nurses and doctors that delivered you, the teachers that taught you and the roads you traveled to your first job on. You took and took, long before you were able to pay in. Fair play if you worked hard in the years since and if you've generated enough wealth that you now have to take estate planning into account, congrats to you!
If you haven't been hoarding that wealth exclusively, you've likely been spending it in ways that give your offspring a headstart in life that you didn't get. Private education from playschool to primary to secondary. Private health insurance and dental for the whole family. Healthy food, a stable home, and a roof over their head. Sports camps, holidays and the Gaeltacht during the summer. Your children don't require loans or grants to get through 3rd Level education. They don't have to work part-time, or save for years for their post-grad. When they get their first professional job you sort them out with a deposit for a house.
These are the benefits of your wealth. You are living in them right now. These are incentive to work hard and smart in your life. Wealth is not about the jackpot that is payable on your death.
But here's the rub. You didn't create all that wealth by yourself. You generated it from other people. You owned a successful factory? Good for you. Did you birth the workforce yourself? Educated them too? Did you singlehandedly build the roads that delivered goods to and from the factory? No, no and no. But you and your family have benefited massively from taxes that did, and that's why the government wants a bigger cut from you every step of the way. If you don't like it, tough - this is the price of your wealthy successful life.
3. I'm getting double-taxed here
No you aren't. You're dead.
Your beneficiaries might be getting taxed if you've left them sums in excess of €335,000 and didn't do any estate planning. But that'd be your own stupid fault, so I refer to point #1.
4. I'll be damned if I'm giving scroungers/Margaret Cash more money to sit on their hole
As far as I know, the funds generated from CAT don't get siphoned off directly to whatever social welfare boogeyman these people are griping about. Taxes go toward improving society, that is nurses, Gardai, roads, teachers, carers for disabled people, jobseeker payments for those out of work, Further Education grants and courses etc etc
Obviously nobody is thrilled that there are people working the system, but does anyone think Margaret Cash's children would have even half a chance at escaping poverty without intervention? They have none of the advantages that hardworking parents give their children and their mother is a dope. So do we leave them penniless on the streets? Put each of her children into protective services at even greater expense to the taxpayer? Or give her the means to feed, clothe and raise them in a safe home, and allow them to have a somewhat normal life as they move through the education system?
I pay about €25k in income taxes each year. Margaret Cash is getting about €1.50 of that according to the site the user Sheeps linked earlier. Is she really worth the ire? Is she really the backbone of the argument about why you shouldn't have to pay more tax if you're doing well in life? She'd be the furthest thing from my mind when I look at my payslip.
5. The CAT thresholds make no sense and some are way too low
Fully agree. The Group A thresholds are fine, but B and C are a joke. I think it's user anewme that brought it up. A person with no children would see any gifts they give start to incur tax at €32k (nieces, nephews) or €16k (non-relatives). That's an absolute piss take, and even more reason to start talking with a tax advisor. That definitely needs to be reformed, but until then it's back to point #1 for anyone in this position.
Excellent post. The bolded passage especially. Everyone here has benefitted from taxes and there are numerous motivators for creating wealth. I’m bemused at the notion that someone wouldn’t want to be wealthy if they couldn’t pass it on as if there are no benefits otherwise. And, as you say, their offspring will benefit from that wealth throughout their lives.0 -
I pay tax on everything I do work and spend. I am classed as a single person as not married.........until I want something back...........then I am told no because although single my partners earnings and assets are taken into account and I am told 'she can look after you'.
We have no kids so have never availed of the generous amounts of cash handed out for kids in all forms.
Now if my partner dies you are telling me that I should pay property tax to look after others which means as I have no money I would have to sell and ??????
One fella on here said if I dont like it then f*ck off.
Some of you have really lost the plot. You will get less and less for your brain storming schemes because people will just leave or hide. It's all been done before, they tried to tax people to death in the UK in the 70's and everybody with any wealth just got up and left. One of the reasons why Ireland gained so many celeb superstars of all kinds living here until their tax system changed.
But now you want to impose the same unworkable ideas that the 'Looney Left' have tried elsewhere and failed every time.0 -
This has been a really interesting topic to read. It's a really emotive issue and there's so many little battlegrounds of discussion within it in regard to society, wealth and inequality. I'm going to touch on a few different threads I've seen mentioned in here.
1. I'll burn the money before I pay CAT.
Slow your roll. Your kids don't have to pay CAT if you don't want them to.
The most thanked post in this thread is a diatribe about how awful CAT is and calling for it to be abolished. Well I have great news, you don't need to wait for it to be abolished. If you don't want your kids to pay CAT then give a tax advisor a call. There is a huge industry in Ireland built on estate planning. If you're expecting that you'll be so laden with wealth by the time you pop your clogs then you can already start the process of protecting it.
2. Gripes about redistribution of wealth in the form of taxes
From the moment you came into the world you've been benefiting from the taxes paid by previous generations. Nobody pulls themselves up by their boot straps - the actual phrase exists because it's impossible, but somewhere along the way its been corrupted into "i EARNED this ALL BY MYSELF". Taxes paid for the nurses and doctors that delivered you, the teachers that taught you and the roads you traveled to your first job on. You took and took, long before you were able to pay in. Fair play if you worked hard in the years since and if you've generated enough wealth that you now have to take estate planning into account, congrats to you!
If you haven't been hoarding that wealth exclusively, you've likely been spending it in ways that give your offspring a headstart in life that you didn't get. Private education from playschool to primary to secondary. Private health insurance and dental for the whole family. Healthy food, a stable home, and a roof over their head. Sports camps, holidays and the Gaeltacht during the summer. Your children don't require loans or grants to get through 3rd Level education. They don't have to work part-time, or save for years for their post-grad. When they get their first professional job you sort them out with a deposit for a house.
These are the benefits of your wealth. You are living in them right now. These are incentive to work hard and smart in your life. Wealth is not about the jackpot that is payable on your death.
But here's the rub. You didn't create all that wealth by yourself. You generated it from other people. You owned a successful factory? Good for you. Did you birth the workforce yourself? Educated them too? Did you singlehandedly build the roads that delivered goods to and from the factory? No, no and no. But you and your family have benefited massively from taxes that did, and that's why the government wants a bigger cut from you every step of the way. If you don't like it, tough - this is the price of your wealthy successful life.
3. I'm getting double-taxed here
No you aren't. You're dead.
Your beneficiaries might be getting taxed if you've left them sums in excess of €335,000 and didn't do any estate planning. But that'd be your own stupid fault, so I refer to point #1.
4. I'll be damned if I'm giving scroungers/Margaret Cash more money to sit on their hole
As far as I know, the funds generated from CAT don't get siphoned off directly to whatever social welfare boogeyman these people are griping about. Taxes go toward improving society, that is nurses, Gardai, roads, teachers, carers for disabled people, jobseeker payments for those out of work, Further Education grants and courses etc etc
Obviously nobody is thrilled that there are people working the system, but does anyone think Margaret Cash's children would have even half a chance at escaping poverty without intervention? They have none of the advantages that hardworking parents give their children and their mother is a dope. So do we leave them penniless on the streets? Put each of her children into protective services at even greater expense to the taxpayer? Or give her the means to feed, clothe and raise them in a safe home, and allow them to have a somewhat normal life as they move through the education system?
I pay about €25k in income taxes each year. Margaret Cash is getting about €1.50 of that according to the site the user Sheeps linked earlier. Is she really worth the ire? Is she really the backbone of the argument about why you shouldn't have to pay more tax if you're doing well in life? She'd be the furthest thing from my mind when I look at my payslip.
5. The CAT thresholds make no sense and some are way too low
Fully agree. The Group A thresholds are fine, but B and C are a joke. I think it's user anewme that brought it up. A person with no children would see any gifts they give start to incur tax at €32k (nieces, nephews) or €16k (non-relatives). That's an absolute piss take, and even more reason to start talking with a tax advisor. That definitely needs to be reformed, but until then it's back to point #1 for anyone in this position.
Great post. Thanks. Can you give any pointers re CAT avoidance / estate planning mentioned?0 -
Nobody can argue that others or even all have benefitted from the tax paid by citizens but it is the way tax is taken that is the problem. It would be easier and simpler to increase income tax than apply property taxes for many reasons.0
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“Obviously nobody is thrilled that there are people working the system, but does anyone think Margaret Cash's children would have even half a chance at escaping poverty without intervention? They have none of the advantages that hardworking parents give their children and their mother is a dope. So do we leave them penniless on the streets? Put each of her children into protective services at even greater expense to the taxpayer? Or give her the means to feed, clothe and raise them in a safe home, and allow them to have a somewhat normal life as they move through the education system?“ a fortune will be spent on these kids and they still dont stand a chance. The parents failed them and The state will stand by while they drop out of school early and just pay them off on welfare from cradle to grave and you will have people here supporting that !0
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Idbatterim wrote: »Sure why tax somebodies windfall? They are happy to throw out obscene amounts to Margaret cash for life and her ilk , no questions asked!
Sure why tax anything - income or capital or assets or windfall?
And please tell me more about this scheme where I can get obscene amounts with no questions asked please.
There's certainly a good argument for consistent treatment. If SW recognises your relationship, then so should Revenue.Boredstiff666 wrote: »I pay tax on everything I do work and spend. I am classed as a single person as not married.........until I want something back...........then I am told no because although single my partners earnings and assets are taken into account and I am told 'she can look after you'.
We have no kids so have never availed of the generous amounts of cash handed out for kids in all forms.
Now if my partner dies you are telling me that I should pay property tax to look after others which means as I have no money I would have to sell and ??????
One fella on here said if I dont like it then f*ck off.
Some of you have really lost the plot. You will get less and less for your brain storming schemes because people will just leave or hide. It's all been done before, they tried to tax people to death in the UK in the 70's and everybody with any wealth just got up and left. One of the reasons why Ireland gained so many celeb superstars of all kinds living here until their tax system changed.
But now you want to impose the same unworkable ideas that the 'Looney Left' have tried elsewhere and failed every time.
It might be easier, but that doesn't make it right. Pretty much every western civilisation has some form of property tax, most of them much more substantial than Ireland.Boredstiff666 wrote: »Nobody can argue that others or even all have benefitted from the tax paid by citizens but it is the way tax is taken that is the problem. It would be easier and simpler to increase income tax than apply property taxes for many reasons.0 -
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AndrewJRenko wrote: »
It might be easier, but that doesn't make it right. Pretty much every western civilisation has some form of property tax, most of them much more substantial than Ireland.
This is misleading and actually now incorrect.
In the UK where this idea was tried to the hilt where 9 years ago it was even proposed that no one should be allowed to leave an inheritance and it should go to the state. It was certainly not a vote winner.
But in the UK now it is deemed so unpopular and not really working at all that Inheritance tax is going to reduced to basics or abolished.
Nobody minds paying tax as long as it is fair, but to save and go without and then have your frugalness seized by the government is just a discouragement and certainly not an incentive.0
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