Wealth distribution through property taxation

myshirt

Nox I think it's between you, your parents, your kids, or whatever as to whether you pay rent or not, but what is lacking is this country's willingness to charge tax on that as a gift.

This "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" and "hard work = success" is actually bullsh't if you study the socioeconomic research.

In the interests of equity, fairness, and social cohesion, Ireland should learn it's lessons and hold it's hands up to say where direct government intervention benefits one set of people above another to the unprecedented extent it did (but bills all of the next generation) then that generation and any benefit they try accrue to the offspring should be heavily, heavily taxed. And I mean very heavily. Tonne of bricks heavy.

You can see it in the kids from the greater Dublin region living at home saving for a deposit, versus the kid up from the country paying rent and trying to save. The parents of those kids should be heavily taxed for that benefit, even if it were to just put a legal charge on the property that can be paid after the person does.

I'd remove next to near all of the CAT threshold aswell to put everyone on an equal footing, bar kids who are disabled or intellectually impaired. I've told my own kids as much that they are getting sweet f'all and they can paddle their own canoe.

myshirt

myshirt wrote: »

I'd remove next to near all of the CAT threshold aswell to put everyone on an equal footing, bar kids who are disabled or intellectually impaired. I've told my own kids as much that they are getting sweet f'all and they can paddle their own canoe.

Absolute insanity, the total opposite should happen. CAT should be abolished between family members at the very least if not in general. It’s an abomination of a tax, totally unjust and unfair and it has no place in society.

We already have a very low CAT free threasholds and an insane level if tax when it does kick it. It’s far lower in most countries and has been scrapped altogether in many. Parents should be able to gift their children everything they want without a single cent of tax, why should their money benefit strangers though tax rather than their own kids. I’m sure your kids are delighted that you have no interest in helping them out and bettering their lives.

Careful tax planning is essential in Ireland to keep the dirty grubby hands of the tax man off a families money.

Assetbacked

John Proud Outfielder wrote: »

Absolute insanity, the total opposite should happen. CAT should be abolished between family members at the very least if not in general. It’s an abomination of a tax, totally unjust and unfair and it has no place in society.

We already have a very low CAT free threasholds and an insane level if tax when it does kick it. It’s far lower in most countries and has been scrapped altogether in many. Parents should be able to gift their children everything they want without a single cent of tax, why should their money benefit strangers though tax rather than their own kids. I’m sure your kids are delighted that you have no interest in helping them out and bettering their lives.

Careful tax planning is essential I’m Ireland to keep the dirty grubby hands of the tax man off a families money.

It is toxic and ensures wealth preservation in families and enables inequality through generations. Dead people can determine how the wealth of future generations is used, this has caused utter chaos.

Cyrus

Assetbacked wrote: »

It is toxic and ensures wealth preservation in families and enables inequality through generations. Dead people can determine how the wealth of future generations is used, this has caused utter chaos.

Wildly over simplified

The inequality as you call it has happened long before inheritance, growing up in a better area , going to a better school, getting a better 3rd level education

What’s your solution for equality ?

Wanderer78

Cyrus wrote:

What’s your solution for equality ?

Better wealth distribution of course

The Student

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Better wealth distribution of course

Targeted wealth distribution might work but that will never happen. We have a cohort of people who feel entitled to everything and that won't change. We have some families who look upon social welfare as a lifestyle while working in the black economy.

The inheritance tax threshold should be increases to ensure the majority of families should never have to pay anything. I find it unacceptable that an only child (even an adult child) should have to pay tax on the inheritance of their family home.

myshirt

The Student wrote: »

Targeted wealth distribution might work but that will never happen. We have a cohort of people who feel entitled to everything and that won't change. We have some families who look upon social welfare as a lifestyle while working in the black economy.

The inheritance tax threshold should be increases to ensure the majority of families should never have to pay anything. I find it unacceptable that an only child (even an adult child) should have to pay tax on the inheritance of their family home.

Bullsh't and more bullsh't, and it has to go. The taxation system should not facilitate the passing on of expensive property tax free, bar cases where the child is in need. Get out and paddle your own canoe.

I fully get the resistance we see here is human nature though. There are many things that we have to knowledge to do, but we don't do it. Like lose weight, lead a healthy lifestyle, all the knowledge and know how is there but we just don't do it. Why? It's a world where knowledge is at your fingertips, but why don't we do it? It comes down to motivated by one of two things; greed, or fear.

Who's the first person you look for when you look at a group wedding photo? Bar cases where the bride has a nice rack, it's yourself. You always look for yourself.

What's the reason people won't stand up to this bullsh't of CAT thresholds and low CAT rates? Fear. Or self interest. Fear, given you have enough sh't going on in your own life; just trying to get through the day, so you shut your mouth and get on with it. Self interest, as you may have a property or inheritance coming your direction.

This approach of 'how does it affect me' has taken us no where and it's time to stop being f*ckin greedy and patting yourself on the back as though that wealth came from your own effort alone. People on here would have you believe that the only difference between them and a guy in the backarse of Timbuktu is that guy didn't pull up his socks. The rest of us know that the guy doesn't even have any socks.

Cyrus

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Better wealth distribution of course

And who would facilitate this ? Because every incremental euro I earn the government take 52% to distribute it and apparently that’s not enough? On top of all the other taxes I pay

Wanderer78

The Student wrote: »

Targeted wealth distribution might work but that will never happen. We have a cohort of people who feel entitled to everything and that won't change. We have some families who look upon social welfare as a lifestyle while working in the black economy.

The inheritance tax threshold should be increases to ensure the majority of families should never have to pay anything. I find it unacceptable that an only child (even an adult child) should have to pay tax on the inheritance of their family home.

why wont redistribution of wealth not work? theres an enormous amount of information and research ongoing into the effects of growing inequality, and it seems many are also becoming aware of it. i do suspect as this inequality grows, it will continue to create even more complex instabilities in our societies, effectively forcing us to address these inequalities. its interesting to hear from people such as joe stiglitz on such matters, according to stiglitiz, some wealthy Brazilian's realised the dangerous of growing inequality in their country, and actively got involved in addressing this, even some wealthy have a conscience, and realise the dangerous of growing inequality.

which few do you speak of, that feel entitled to everything? why do some end up on welfare for long periods?

Wanderer78

Cyrus wrote: »

And who would facilitate this ? Because every incremental euro I earn the government take 52% to distribute it and apparently that’s not enough? On top of all the other taxes I pay

this is a complicated one, we have very little trust in our public systems in redistribution of wealth, and its probably safe to say, the invisible hands of the market probably arent gonna do it either, we re in a bit of a bind here. as always, there are plenty of tax avoidance methods out there, the government doesnt take it from you, its an agreement, you can opt out from some payments via tax avoidance. the agreement being, we pay taxes, we get a return of that payment, but we dont actually truly receive that here

The Student

Wanderer78 wrote: »

why wont redistribution of wealth not work? theres an enormous amount of information and research ongoing into the effects of growing inequality, and it seems many are also becoming aware of it. i do suspect as this inequality grows, it will continue to create even more complex instabilities in our societies, effectively forcing us to address these inequalities. its interesting to hear from people such as joe stiglitz on such matters, according to stiglitiz, some wealthy Brazilian's realised the dangerous of growing inequality in their country, and actively got involved in addressing this, even some wealthy have a conscience, and realise the dangerous of growing inequality.

which few do you speak of, that feel entitled to everything? why do some end up on welfare for long periods?

I have lived in deprived areas of Dublin where councils provide good quality playgrounds, football pitches, tennis courts etc all of which were destroyed by locals. Teenagers who have no value for anything, having spoken to friends who are both Gardai and Prison Officers they have told me how the family's are no better.

Some people have no values and will continue to take all the time. I see it everyday in Dublin city where I work, I see you women pushing prams, see young men wearing deigner sports wear with top of the range mobile phones. I see young people with all well know sports outlet bags.

Then too add insult to injury these people produce a social welfare card entitling them to free use of public transport.

The Student

myshirt wrote: »

Bullsh't and more bullsh't, and it has to go. The taxation system should not facilitate the passing on of expensive property tax free, bar cases where the child is in need. Get out and paddle your own canoe.

I fully get the resistance we see here is human nature though. There are many things that we have to knowledge to do, but we don't do it. Like lose weight, lead a healthy lifestyle, all the knowledge and know how is there but we just don't do it. Why? It's a world where knowledge is at your fingertips, but why don't we do it? It comes down to motivated by one of two things; greed, or fear.

Who's the first person you look for when you look at a group wedding photo? Bar cases where the bride has a nice rack, it's yourself. You always look for yourself.

What's the reason people won't stand up to this bullsh't of CAT thresholds and low CAT rates? Fear. Or self interest. Fear, given you have enough sh't going on in your own life; just trying to get through the day, so you shut your mouth and get on with it. Self interest, as you may have a property or inheritance coming your direction.

This approach of 'how does it affect me' has taken us no where and it's time to stop being f*ckin greedy and patting yourself on the back as though that wealth came from your own effort alone. People on here would have you believe that the only difference between them and a guy in the backarse of Timbuktu is that guy didn't pull up his socks. The rest of us know that the guy doesn't even have any socks.

Education has never been as accessible as it is now.I and my parents have and are currently paying significant income taxes and as another poster has highlighted I also pay 52% tax on every extra euro I earn. Exactly how much tax do you expect us to pay.

Wanderer78

The Student wrote: »

I have lived in deprived areas of Dublin where councils provide good quality playgrounds, football pitches, tennis courts etc all of which were destroyed by locals. Teenagers who have no value for anything, having spoken to friends who are both Gardai and Prison Officers they have told me how the family's are no better.

Some people have no values and will continue to take all the time. I see it everyday in Dublin city where I work, I see you women pushing prams, see young men wearing deigner sports wear with top of the range mobile phones. I see young people with all well know sports outlet bags.

Then too add insult to injury these people produce a social welfare card entitling them to free use of public transport.

one of the main root causes of these social issues is in fact, rising inequality, again, well researched. we pretend we all have the same options and opportunities in this world, we dont, and id completely agree with people such as Stiglitz, rising inequality also causes as rise inequality of opportunities.

long term unemployment is actually extremely complex, some of the most common issues amongst the long term unemployment are undiagnosed, therefore untreated complex disorders such as developmental disorders, mental health disorders, behavioral problems, personality disorders, learning disabilities, etc etc etc. you will find our existing social systems, i.e. educational system, legal system, health care systems etc etc etc have failed to deal with these issues, and in many cases, has in fact exasperated them

therefore, providing the facilities, as you mentioned, doesnt get to these root problems, at all!

Cyrus

Wanderer78 wrote: »

one of the main root causes of these social issues is in fact, rising inequality, again, well researched. we pretend we all have the same options and opportunities in this world, we dont, and id completely agree with people such as Stiglitz, rising inequality also causes as rise inequality of opportunities.

long term unemployment is actually extremely complex, some of the most common issues amongst the long term unemployment are undiagnosed, therefore untreated complex disorders such as developmental disorders, mental health disorders, behavioral problems, personality disorders, learning disabilities, etc etc etc. you will find our existing social systems, i.e. educational system, legal system, health care systems etc etc etc have failed to deal with these issues, and in many cases, has in fact exasperated them

therefore, providing the facilities, as you mentioned, doesnt get to these root problems, at all!

And your solution is ?

Geuze

CAT is a tax that provokes strong responses from people.

The Student

Wanderer78 wrote: »

one of the main root causes of these social issues is in fact, rising inequality, again, well researched. we pretend we all have the same options and opportunities in this world, we dont, and id completely agree with people such as Stiglitz, rising inequality also causes as rise inequality of opportunities.

long term unemployment is actually extremely complex, some of the most common issues amongst the long term unemployment are undiagnosed, therefore untreated complex disorders such as developmental disorders, mental health disorders, behavioral problems, personality disorders, learning disabilities, etc etc etc. you will find our existing social systems, i.e. educational system, legal system, health care systems etc etc etc have failed to deal with these issues, and in many cases, has in fact exasperated them

therefore, providing the facilities, as you mentioned, doesnt get to these root problems, at all!

While I feel your intentions are honorable using theoretical work to support your viewpoint should not be viewed as gospel. Theories are exactly that each society is completely different and theories should only be used as a starting point.

Unless people accept that we are all not the same, some are better than others and that some people are beyond help we are never going to agree or move forward.

Wanderer78

The Student wrote: »

While I feel your intentions are honorable using theoretical work to support your viewpoint should not be viewed as gospel. Theories are exactly that each society is completely different and theories should only be used as a starting point.

Unless people accept that we are all not the same, some are better than others and that some people are beyond help we are never going to agree or move forward.

theres actually plenty of data to support my views, im autistic myself, long term unemployment is common amongst the autistic community, some believing up to 80% of autistic people experience periods of long term unemployment, figures are also relatively high with other disorders mentioned.

i actually find your last statement incredibly disturbing, with ongoing research in such fields, we re finding great understanding in such complex and relatively common disorders, theres an extremely high chance, someone in your social circle struggles with such complex issues, would you be willing to just ignore them, if you felt, they were beyond help?

Princess Calla

Geuze wrote: »

CAT is a tax that provokes strong responses from people.

Probably because you're taxed at 52% then the beneficiary will be taxed at 33% so out of every euro you earn revenue gets 66 cents or so!

Take away being able to gift your children a few bob in your death where is the incentive to work and better yourself?

AulWan

The Student wrote: »

I have lived in deprived areas of Dublin where councils provide good quality playgrounds, football pitches, tennis courts etc all of which were destroyed by locals. Teenagers who have no value for anything, having spoken to friends who are both Gardai and Prison Officers they have told me how the family's are no better.

Some people have no values and will continue to take all the time. I see it everyday in Dublin city where I work, I see you women pushing prams, see young men wearing deigner sports wear with top of the range mobile phones. I see young people with all well know sports outlet bags.

Then too add insult to injury these people produce a social welfare card entitling them to free use of public transport.

Free travel is not universal to all social welfare recipients, it is limited to certain recipients only, for example, Disabled, Carers and Invalidity, Those over the age of 66. Your average jobseeker or single parent does not get free travel.

The Student

Wanderer78 wrote: »

theres actually plenty of data to support my views, im autistic myself, long term unemployment is common amongst the autistic community, some believing up to 80% of autistic people experience periods of long term unemployment, figures are also relatively high with other disorders mentioned.

i actually find your last statement incredibly disturbing, with ongoing research in such fields, we re finding great understanding in such complex and relatively common disorders, theres an extremely high chance, someone in your social circle struggles with such complex issues, would you be willing to just ignore them, if you felt, they were beyond help?

Could you point out where in my post did I mention anybody should be ignored?

What I did say was that some people are beyond help. In an ideal works we would have a cure for everything, nobody would be sick everybody would have everything they want.

You may not agree with my position, I may not agree with yours but unless there is a fairer deal for all involved and sanctions for those who do wrong then the divide will get wider. Otherwise why play by the rules if there are no consequences for breaking them.

Assetbacked

Assetbacked wrote: »

It is toxic and ensures wealth preservation in families and enables inequality through generations. Dead people can determine how the wealth of future generations is used, this has caused utter chaos.

And wealth preservation should be the 100% entitlement of any family and only begrudging thieves think otherwise.

I find it hard to put words on the absolute low level I hold any opinion in favour of CAT, inheritance tax etc. A family goes out, works hard and pays buckets of tax on money and then some would try to prevent them from giving their children far better lives by helping them out. Basically the aim of any parent is to give their kids the best life possible. But no the layabouts should benefit from the hard work of people not their own children.

A vile tax that many many counties don’t have and most that do have it hace far higher tax free amounts than our pityful threshold here along with our insane taxation level.

Thankfully I’ve never met anyone in person who has anything but an absolute hatred for gift and inheritance taxes but if I ever heard anyone argue in their favor I’d simply leave the room (after telling them what I though of their opinion) and never speak to them again, that’s how strongly I detest these disgusting thieving taxes.

I’d rather burn the Money and assets than see it go to the tax man and be “redistributed”

Diarmuid

Princess Calla wrote: »

Probably because you're taxed at 52% then the beneficiary will be taxed at 33% so out of every euro you earn revenue gets 66 cents or so!

Take away being able to gift your children a few bob in your death where is the incentive to work and better yourself?

If you earn, and invest your money you pay tax at marginal rate and again on the gain at sale (CGT). Likewise DIRT. If you take earned income and buy something with it, you pay VAT. IT's the way the tax system works.

kippy

Princess Calla wrote: »

Probably because you're taxed at 52% then the beneficiary will be taxed at 33% so out of every euro you earn revenue gets 66 cents or so!

Take away being able to gift your children a few bob in your death where is the incentive to work and better yourself?

There's plenty incentive there to work an better yourself.

Dav010

Wealth distribution my ass. Unless you inherit money, people with wealth earned their wealth through hard work and good business choices, and they pay tax on those earnings, so I see no reason why they should be made pay a higher burden. Inheritance tax is fundamentally unfair, the parents have already been taxed on what they are passing on, inheritance tax is therefore effectively double taxation. If you want wealth, you work hard.

kippy

kippy wrote: »

There's plenty incentive there to work an better yourself.

What’s the point in building wealth if it’s going to be decimated in tax? I really can’t get my head around anyone who even remotely agrees with taxing gifts or inheritances within the family at the very least.

Why are they so against wanting to help their kids out or do they begrudge those who can so much. Any parent who can helps out their kids, if that’s a deposit or gifting land to build on or for the even luckier gifting them houses etc making their lives much better and easier reducing/eliminating worries about money for them etc.

Yet some want it stopped, absolute madness.

The good thing is though that it’s the other way things are going thankfully with the tax free threashold being increased every year. Hopefully in future the taxation of money or assets bring gifted/inherited within the family will be totally tax free on all amounts but we can only hope.

Dav010

John Proud Outfielder wrote: »

What’s the point in building wealth if it’s going to be decimated in tax? I really can’t get my head around anyone who even remotely agrees with taxing gifts or inheritances within the family at the very least.

Why are they so against wanting to help their kids out or do they begrudge those who can so much. Any parent who can helps out their kids, if that’s a deposit or gifting land to build on or for the even luckier gifting them houses etc making their lives much better and easier reducing/eliminating worries about money for them etc.

Yet some want it stopped, absolute madness.

The good thing is though that it’s the other way things are going thankfully with the tax free threashold being increased every year. Hopefully in future the taxation of money or assets bring gifted/inherited within the family will be totally tax free on all amounts but we can only home.

Begrudgery. In the US, they want to be that guy/gal who has done well, here, it’s a case of why should he/she have it and I don’t. Help me.

Society should help those who can’t help themselves, not those who won’t or feel they deserve more.

Diarmuid

If a person receiving wealth through accident of birth is so offensive then surely income tax must be abhorrent to the previous two posters. After all you worked for that. Is it begrudgery, to expect that to be taxed also?

Princess Calla

Diarmuid wrote: »

If you earn, and invest your money you pay tax at marginal rate and again on the gain at sale (CGT). Likewise DIRT. If you take earned income and buy something with it, you pay VAT. IT's the way the tax system works.

I'm aware how taxation works!

The point I'm making is I earn money for my household which includes my children. I as a responsible adult save each month for unexpected emergencies. If I die tomorrow my children will have to pay 33% tax on my savings. The money that was earned for the household is automatically deducted because I died.

Now if you took away the threshold as one poster suggested where is the incentive to work and build up wealth?

Sure you'd be better off knocked up getting a house from the government.... However if everyone did that where would the government get their financing from?

_Brian

myshirt wrote: »

Nox I think it's between you, your parents, your kids, or whatever as to whether you pay rent or not, but what is lacking is this country's willingness to charge tax on that as a gift.

This "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" and "hard work = success" is actually bullsh't if you study the socioeconomic research.

In the interests of equity, fairness, and social cohesion, Ireland should learn it's lessons and hold it's hands up to say where direct government intervention benefits one set of people above another to the unprecedented extent it did (but bills all of the next generation) then that generation and any benefit they try accrue to the offspring should be heavily, heavily taxed. And I mean very heavily. Tonne of bricks heavy.

You can see it in the kids from the greater Dublin region living at home saving for a deposit, versus the kid up from the country paying rent and trying to save. The parents of those kids should be heavily taxed for that benefit, even if it were to just put a legal charge on the property that can be paid after the person does.

I'd remove next to near all of the CAT threshold aswell to put everyone on an equal footing, bar kids who are disabled or intellectually impaired. I've told my own kids as much that they are getting sweet f'all and they can paddle their own canoe.

When people talk of social cohesion and taxation together they usually want to tax people who work hard for stuff and give free stuff to those who won’t work for it.

It’s a rubbish idea and just encourages nobody to work for anything because of you don’t everything is free of you don’t.

pablo128

Diarmuid wrote: »

If a person receiving wealth through accident of birth is so offensive then surely income tax must be abhorrent to the previous two posters. After all you worked for that. Is it begrudgery, to expect that to be taxed also?

How would you like your wages taxed twice?

Dav010

Leaving aside the taxation on income, very few wealthy people become wealthy in isolation. Most do so through industry which employs others who in turn use their wages to in turn support others in retail etc. If you remove the incentive of accumulating wealth or increase their burden by distributing their wealth by increasing taxation, you risk removing that incentive.