Wealth distribution through property taxation

Cyrus

boring accountant wrote: »

It’s not 10s of thousands to get estate planning advice. Not even close.

If you want more than a rehash of the revenue guidelines it is.

I have been involved in estate planning for a business owner and he spent well into 6 figures for advice and set up of various vehicles and trusts

AndrewJRenko

Ronin247 wrote: »

The thing is "everyone else " isn't paying into the giant pot.... some of us put lots into it and some of us put nothing.

Everyone pays tax. Everytime they go into a shop, they pay tax.

Boredstiff666 wrote: »

This is misleading and actually now incorrect.

In the UK where this idea was tried to the hilt where 9 years ago it was even proposed that no one should be allowed to leave an inheritance and it should go to the state. It was certainly not a vote winner.

But in the UK now it is deemed so unpopular and not really working at all that Inheritance tax is going to reduced to basics or abolished.

Nobody minds paying tax as long as it is fair, but to save and go without and then have your frugalness seized by the government is just a discouragement and certainly not an incentive.

I was referring to general property taxes, like the LPT here, not inheritance taxes.


Where did you see that the UK was going to reduce or abolish inheritance tax. It wasn't mentioned at all in the Tory manifesto.


https://portfolio-adviser.com/conservative-manifesto-light-on-tax-proposals/

Cyrus wrote: »

If you want more than a rehash of the revenue guidelines it is.

I have been involved in estate planning for a business owner and he spent well into 6 figures for advice and set up of various vehicles and trusts

For what size of estate was that?

cosybeach

contributors to that so called tax pot don't have any say or value as it is wasted to a large part by politicians and senior PS staff.
Which is why same contributors get nothing or a lot less while paying more are becoming more vocal.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

cosybeach wrote: »

contributors to that so called tax pot don't have any say or value as it is wasted to a large part by politicians and senior PS staff.
Which is why same contributors get nothing or a lot less while paying more are becoming more vocal.

Well, yeah, that’s how taxation works. Nobody gets a say in how any of their taxes are used.

elperello

Cyrus wrote: »

If you want more than a rehash of the revenue guidelines it is.

I have been involved in estate planning for a business owner and he spent well into 6 figures for advice and set up of various vehicles and trusts

Of course estate planning for a large estate can be expensive but for most with a house and a few hundred k it can be reasonable and worthwhile.

In some cases it can be DIY if you have a little financial savvy yourself.

Worth noting that the so called "fair deal" will eat away your cash pile in short order so is another incentive to plan ahead.

Bif

elperello wrote: »

Of course estate planning for a large estate can be expensive but for most with a house and a few hundred k it can be reasonable and worthwhile.

In some cases it can be DIY if you have a little financial savvy yourself.

Worth noting that the so called "fair deal" will eat away your cash pile in short order so is another incentive to plan ahead.

Can you give some more details of what the average person can do to minimise CAT? Thanks.

AndrewJRenko

cosybeach wrote: »

contributors to that so called tax pot don't have any say or value as it is wasted to a large part by politicians and senior PS staff.
Which is why same contributors get nothing or a lot less while paying more are becoming more vocal.

Apart from the democratic elections that happen every five years or so, yes, you're completely right.

beauf

Bif wrote: »

Can you give some more details of what the average person can do to minimise CAT? Thanks.

I'd be curious about this also.

elperello

Bif wrote: »

Can you give some more details of what the average person can do to minimise CAT? Thanks.

Sorry, no can do.

You might as well be listening to a guy on a bar stool as listening to me.
Besides I might cause an avalanche of contrary opinions and we'd be here till the New Year arguing and no wiser in the end.
Do a bit of online research and apply common sense.
Discuss what you are doing with family if you think it's appropriate.
Don't do anything illegal.

It's either that DIY approach or get professional advice.
Don't forget the old saying that the advice you pay for is the only advice worth considering.

Bif

Bif wrote: »

Can you give some more details of what the average person can do to minimise CAT? Thanks.

First place to start is to use the small gifts exemption of 3k per year. Each parent can give 3k to each child tax free per year so that’s 6k each child can get per year.. If their child has a wife/partner they can give them 6k also so. In this scenario 12k per year can be gifted tax free without using any thresholds. Start doing this fairy early and you can spend many many years (from the minute the child is born 6k per year if you wish) transferring money to reduce any potential tax liability.

Other things would be if you are to inherit a business or farm ensure you are eligible for business/agri relief. In this context it’s better to be giving land than cash as it can fall under the exemption therefore if a large amount of cash is to be gifted it might be better to buy land and gift that instead.

These are just some examples. But any sort of tax planning helps reduce what is stolen from you so it’s worth doing anything you can.

beauf

elperello wrote: »

...
Don't forget the old saying that the advice you pay for is the only advice worth considering.

Guess who made that up.

beauf

There is also inheritance insurance.

Lots of info online. But limited.
https://moneytothemasses.com/tax/inheritance-tax/the-10-best-ways-to-avoid-inheritance-tax

elperello

beauf wrote: »

Guess who made that up.

There's an even older saying "the labourer is worthy of his hire".

I wouldn't quibble with paying a professional in any area of business.

Just be wary of people selling anything in the financial area.

Boredstiff666

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Where did you see that the UK was going to reduce or abolish inheritance tax. It wasn't mentioned at all in the Tory manifesto.


https://portfolio-adviser.com/conservative-manifesto-light-on-tax-proposals/

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1187935/Inheritance-tax-latest-robert-jenrick-death-rates

Put a search in online there is loads on it in all papers left or right as it is so unpopular.

Fionn1952

I'm sure after so many quite heated pages, it's already been pointed out, but to those complaining that tax has already been paid on their earned income, so why should their children pay tax when they receive it.....surely you see what a nonsensical approach that is. You paid tax on it when you earned it.....your children pay tax on it when they, 'earn' it.....pretty basic stuff.

When I send an invoice off to one of my clients, the money they pay with has already been taxed. Should I not pay income tax when they transfer this wealth to me?

I will be leaving quite a bit behind me when I kick the bucket, so it certainly isn't detached begrudgery, hopefully its later rather than sooner. I'm quite happy that my benefactors will pay less tax on it than should they actually earn the money themselves. It will set them up with a significant advantage starting out in life that I didn't have. I'd be pretty appalled should any of them complain about it.

AndrewJRenko

Boredstiff666 wrote: »

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1187935/Inheritance-tax-latest-robert-jenrick-death-rates

Put a search in online there is loads on it in all papers left or right as it is so unpopular.

Newspapers are pretty good at stirring things up so that things look very unpopular or indeed popular.


It's not in the Tory manifesto and there is no actual commitment to address it.

Boredstiff666

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Newspapers are pretty good at stirring things up so that things look very unpopular or indeed popular.


It's not in the Tory manifesto and there is no actual commitment to address it.

Well you slag the papers cause they talk bollox and quote the manifesto which they never keep.

So who do we believe then?

elperello

Boredstiff666 wrote: »

Well you slag the papers cause they talk bollox and quote the manifesto which they never keep.

So who do we believe then?

A bit of fear and loathing in the Home Counties should deliver a result in the third year of this Government.

AndrewJRenko

Boredstiff666 wrote: »

Well you slag the papers cause they talk bollox and quote the manifesto which they never keep.

So who do we believe then?

Ask Putin - he'll tell you what the UK government will be doing.

Ronin247

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Everyone pays tax. Everytime they go into a shop, they pay tax.
.............

We are talking about direct taxation not indirect taxation, but if we are going down that route then answer this...

If someone goes into a shop and spends €100 that they got for free from the "great big tax pot in the sky" are they paying the VAT or am I paying it indirectly?

beauf

elperello wrote: »

There's an even older saying "the labourer is worthy of his hire".

I wouldn't quibble with paying a professional in any area of business.

Just be wary of people selling anything in the financial area.

Another stupid saying. Lots of scandals involving professionals of every sector in Ireland. Paying someone is no indication of anything.

But as say you just need to be always wary.

In recent years I went looking for estate planning and inheritance advice and got quite a poor response. The advice I got wasn't very different to my own guesswork either.

elperello

beauf wrote: »

Another stupid saying. Lots of scandals involving professionals of every sector in Ireland. Paying someone is no indication of anything.

But as say you just need to be always wary.

In recent years I went looking for estate planning and inheritance advice and got quite a poor response. The advice I got wasn't very different to my own guesswork either.

"the labourer is worthy of his hire" is fairly fundamental in business terms. It underwrites all business relationships. The trouble starts when someone wants to eat the other guys lunch.

Like I said DIY can do the job but don't rely on guesswork.

Caveat emptor.

Fionn1952

Fionn1952 wrote: »

I'm sure after so many quite heated pages, it's already been pointed out, but to those complaining that tax has already been paid on their earned income, so why should their children pay tax when they receive it.....surely you see what a nonsensical approach that is. You paid tax on it when you earned it.....your children pay tax on it when they, 'earn' it.....pretty basic stuff.

Once the money enter the family unit it should be able to move around totally tax free as much as you want it to, it’s nonsensical that money going between a parent and their child is taxable it’s actually astounding that this has ever come about. To me this is as bizarre as if money going between a married couple was taxed.

Dav010

beauf wrote: »

Another stupid saying. Lots of scandals involving professionals of every sector in Ireland. Paying someone is no indication of anything.

But as say you just need to be always wary.

In recent years I went looking for estate planning and inheritance advice and got quite a poor response. The advice I got wasn't very different to my own guesswork either.

Paying someone is confirmation of a contract being formed, it gives you rights.

To be fair, you don’t need to have a degree in accountancy to google and understand taxation, but getting the correct information for you is often worth multiples of what you pay. I have a reasonable understanding of taxation, but I still pay an accountant because they are experts, even though sometimes they just confirm what I thought would be the case.

beauf

elperello wrote: »

"the labourer is worthy of his hire" is fairly fundamental in business terms. It underwrites all business relationships. The trouble starts when someone wants to eat the other guys lunch.

Like I said DIY can do the job but don't rely on guesswork.

Caveat emptor.

It's a biblical reference. I think it's that a worker should get rewarded for their labour. Knowing the church it probably was to their benefit.

Applying that to business ideology is a little self affirming. A lot of people give bad advice and charge plenty for it. Like a pre NCT test. Most places don't have the equipment to check things like brakes or suspension. Doing the NCT is often cheaper and more accurate than a pre NCT test.

A lot of poor work practices hide behind the cover of "professional" . A lot of big charges for professional services are bordering on sharp practises. See that a lot when dealing with tenders.

Last time (a couple of years ago) I checked the fees for basic estate planning advice for a small estate were about 1500-2500. If the estate was larger day north of 1million or involving a business line a farm etc I'm sure it's a lot more. I'm sure it's similar to administering an estate & probate a solicitors have been known to charge anything from 500 to 50k or even a few % of the estates value for similar work.

Buyer beware indeed.

beauf

Dav010 wrote: »

Paying someone is confirmation of a contract being formed, it gives you rights.

To be fair, you don’t need to have a degree in accountancy to google and understand taxation, but getting the correct information for you is often worth multiples of what you pay. I have a reasonable understanding of taxation, but I still pay an accountant because they are experts, even though sometimes they just confirm what I thought would be the case.

I agree entirely.

Eric Cartman

John Proud Outfielder wrote: »

Once the money enter the family unit it should be able to move around totally tax free as much as you want it to, it’s nonsensical that money going between a parent and their child is taxable it’s actually astounding that this has ever come about. To me this is as bizarre as if money going between a married couple was taxed.

+1 , makes a complete mockery of working hard so your kids can have a better life, but the government wants their slice ofcourse.

beauf

myshirt wrote: »

Nox I think it's between you, your parents, your kids, or whatever as to whether you pay rent or not, but what is lacking is this country's willingness to charge tax on that as a gift.

This "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" and "hard work = success" is actually bullsh't if you study the socioeconomic research.

In the interests of equity, fairness, and social cohesion, Ireland should learn it's lessons and hold it's hands up to say where direct government intervention benefits one set of people above another to the unprecedented extent it did (but bills all of the next generation) then that generation and any benefit they try accrue to the offspring should be heavily, heavily taxed. And I mean very heavily. Tonne of bricks heavy.

You can see it in the kids from the greater Dublin region living at home saving for a deposit, versus the kid up from the country paying rent and trying to save. The parents of those kids should be heavily taxed for that benefit, even if it were to just put a legal charge on the property that can be paid after the person does.

I'd remove next to near all of the CAT threshold aswell to put everyone on an equal footing, bar kids who are disabled or intellectually impaired. I've told my own kids as much that they are getting sweet f'all and they can paddle their own canoe.

It's interesting we've gone from this to estate planning.

But this is a curious post, a realisation that hard work isn't enough. But it's basically promoting failed ideology communism or close to it as a solution. Seems a bit naïve.

I wonder if where ideology of an honest day work came from. It could be seen as a means to pacify those being repressed by something like religion or similar like monarchies etc.

beauf

It's a bit naïve to expect life to be a level playing field.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Eric Cartman wrote: »

+1 , makes a complete mockery of working hard so your kids can have a better life, but the government wants their slice ofcourse.

That wealth will give your children many benefits during their life. And the wealth is for you to enjoy too. Unless the only joy you extract from building wealth is passing it on in which case, whatever floats your boat.