Wealth distribution through property taxation

Donnielighto

If not CAT then there needs to be a general asset tax, low rate but enough to discourage lack of use. I'd there are assets make use of them. Possible exceptions for stuff that wouldn't support itself but only to except that value and not count as a general write off.

Donnielighto

beauf wrote: »

It's interesting we've gone from this to estate planning.

But this is a curious post, a realisation that hard work isn't enough. But it's basically promoting failed ideology communism or close to it as a solution. Seems a bit naïve.

I wonder if where ideology of an honest day work came from. It could be seen as a means to pacify those being repressed by something like religion or similar like monarchies etc.

It's socialism not communism that is being suggested isn't it. Socialism allows for private ownership but with a broad tax net. Communism would just get rid of the private ownership of assets (large ones anyway).

beauf

Can't be "fair" with ownership. Since its inherited property. That said most of people advantage is not simply property. How do you make that fair without communism. Which failed.

beauf

Donnielighto wrote: »

....but enough to discourage lack of use. I'd there are assets make use of them. ...

I don't know how you discourage lack of use. Unless the ultimate sanction is to lose the property.

kippy

Eric Cartman wrote: »

+1 , makes a complete mockery of working hard so your kids can have a better life, but the government wants their slice ofcourse.

It doesn't.

oceanman

I don't get this obsession with leaving all your wealth to your children to give them a better start in life, let them get out and work for it the same as most have to do.

AnRothar

oceanman wrote: »

I don't get this obsession with leaving all your wealth to your children to give them a better start in life, let them get out and work for it the same as most have to do.

Moving off topic. we all want our genes to survive.
Helping our children with a "leg up" is how most of us do it.


How many children do you have?

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

oceanman wrote: »

I don't get this obsession with leaving all your wealth to your children to give them a better start in life, let them get out and work for it the same as most have to do.

Not to mention, most “children” will be at least middle-aged when their last parent dies. My mother was 48 when that happened, my father was 60.

c montgomery

The less people have the more they want to share....

Ireland is a country of "Look after yourself and family" , the sooner you realise that the better.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Not to mention, most “children” will be at least middle-aged when their last parent dies. My mother was 48 when that happened, my father was 60.

I think it’s fairly obvious the discussion is about gifts also not just inheritances. Most parents who can help out their children at all stages of life.

Fionn1952

John Proud Outfielder wrote: »

Once the money enter the family unit it should be able to move around totally tax free as much as you want it to, it’s nonsensical that money going between a parent and their child is taxable it’s actually astounding that this has ever come about. To me this is as bizarre as if money going between a married couple was taxed.

We're discussing inheritance tax, in the majority of cases, that money is going to a grown-a**ed adult. Earn your (not you personally) own damn money instead of waiting until you're middle aged for some windfall from someone who actually worked.

The childhood of privilege is the biggest foot-up someone can get in life. You're already starting the race at the half way line and complaining that the extra advantage you're about to get is being partially used to buy some guy a pair of shoes at the starting line.

Mad_maxx

Fionn1952 wrote: »

We're discussing inheritance tax, in the majority of cases, that money is going to a grown-a**ed adult. Earn your (not you personally) own damn money instead of waiting until you're middle aged for some windfall from someone who actually worked.

The childhood of privilege is the biggest foot-up someone can get in life. You're already starting the race at the half way line and complaining that the extra advantage you're about to get is being partially used to buy some guy a pair of shoes at the starting line.

Children pay for the sins of their parents.

Those who work hard and live responsible lives see many rewards, one being seeing their children get an improved start

Those who live lives of feckless behaviour see their kids have a different experience

That's fairness only not to a socialist of course

beauf

Fionn1952 wrote: »

We're discussing inheritance tax, in the majority of cases, that money is going to a grown-a**ed adult. Earn your (not you personally) own damn money instead of waiting until you're middle aged for some windfall from someone who actually worked.

The childhood of privilege is the biggest foot-up someone can get in life. You're already starting the race at the half way line and complaining that the extra advantage you're about to get is being partially used to buy some guy a pair of shoes at the starting line.

Except it's not buying shoes it's buying a 1 million pound white elephant of a printer and projects like that. Or the world's most expensive and over priced hospital.

Rather than waiting for a wind fall many people will be
Main carers and guardians for their parents at the end of their life, paying for nursing homes at 2k a week, and medical and other substantial costs.

If course some will just abandon their parents and won't be aware of any of this.

It's probably why they think there is some sort of age cut off where parents and children stop looking out for each other.

AndrewJRenko

John Proud Outfielder wrote: »

Once the money enter the family unit it should be able to move around totally tax free as much as you want it to, it’s nonsensical that money going between a parent and their child is taxable it’s actually astounding that this has ever come about. To me this is as bizarre as if money going between a married couple was taxed.

And for the most part, that's exactly what happens. Except when it comes to very large movements, movement of cash or assets of a scale that would buy you a house in many parts of the country - that's the limit, and a reasonable limit too. It doesn't effect most families at all. If you have two or three kids and a very comfortable house, there will be no inheritance tax involved.


I wouldn't object to an exemption for sole children where they are going to actually live in the house in question. But if they're just getting the value of the asset, they are fair game for tax.

beauf wrote: »

It's a bit naïve to expect life to be a level playing field.

Inheritance tax smooths out a couple of the mountains on the playing field. It doesn't make it level, by a very long shot.

c montgomery wrote: »

The less people have the more they want to share....

I find the corollary to be more accurate - the more people have, the less they have to share. Just look at the age and class profile of Tory voters in the UK.

Eric Cartman wrote: »

+1 , makes a complete mockery of working hard so your kids can have a better life, but the government wants their slice ofcourse.

Except no-one works hard for inherited money or assets. That's the issue - you didn't work hard for what you inherited from your parents, and your kids won't work hard for you pass on to them.

anewme

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Except no-one works hard for inherited money or assets. That's the issue - you didn't work hard for what you inherited from your parents, and your kids won't work hard for you pass on to them.

There are often huge family sacrifices to do better financially. Missed Christmas plays, both parenents working, stressful jobs, with long hours, long commutes.

People starting off often have both parents working to afford a home. This is extreme stress on all members of the family.

People make these sacrifices so maybe they can enjoy their retirement their children will have a better life , more choices and might not need to do the same.

oceanman

anewme wrote: »

There are often huge family sacrifices to do better financially. Missed Christmas plays, both parenents working, stressful jobs, with long hours, long commutes.

People starting off often have both parents working to afford a home. This is extreme stress on all members of the family.

People make these sacrifices so maybe they can enjoy their retirement their children will have a better life , more choices and might not need to do the same.

let them get off their ass and earn their own money...they might appreciate it more.

AndrewJRenko

anewme wrote: »

There are often huge family sacrifices to do better financially. Missed Christmas plays, both parenents working, stressful jobs, with long hours, long commutes.

People starting off often have both parents working to afford a home. This is extreme stress on all members of the family.

People make these sacrifices so maybe they can enjoy their retirement their children will have a better life , more choices and might not need to do the same.

There are no sacrifices for inherited money. It is inherited. It gives better-off families an unfair advantage over others, to be able to pay for the education, networking and healthcare that gives them advantages over others.



Don't expect the tax system to subsidise these advantages.

beauf

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

......
Inheritance tax smooths out a couple of the mountains on the playing field. It doesn't make it level, by a very long shot.

As most will only inherit later in life, inheritance will have very little impact on any playing field. The die will be cast long before then.

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

........
Except no-one works hard for inherited money or assets. That's the issue - you didn't work hard for what you inherited from your parents, and your kids won't work hard for you pass on to them.

Most people I know who grew up in a family business farm or building etc worked their butts off growing up and as adults. A lot more than they'll work in most other jobs. It's almost like working for yourself. Except a lot of it unpaid or very low wages. So some did work hard for it. Not all obviously.

beauf

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

There are no sacrifices for inherited money. It is inherited. It gives better-off families an unfair advantage over others, to be able to pay for the education, networking and healthcare that gives them advantages over others.



Don't expect the tax system to subsidise these advantages.

To be fair everything should be taxed equally. If you are giving a kid €30 for their birthday they should have to pay €10 of it in tax. Gift, inheritance it's all the same free lunch eh.

Fol20

the higher the net worth the more flexible and transient people can become if they are taxed too high. You need to strike a balance or people will leave.Let’s say you have a net worth of 5million with annual income of 250k

In Ireland your net pay per annum is 138k with no pension and your married with one income.
On death. You pay tax at 33pc above 300k for simplicity. This means you pass on circa 3,450,000 to your family.
Yes this is nothing to scoff at and most would be happy but let’s say you move to Andorra and you become a tax resident there.

You need to commit to live there for 90 days a year and have investments of 400k(if your at this level. That’s fine)

Net take home pay per year - 228k
Net amount passed onto family after death - 5million.

As you can see, per year. There is a massive difference in take home pay and back to the topic of this thread, your saving yourself over 1.5million is taxes that your household get to keep away from the taxman. I’m not talking morality, I’m talking hard numbers where if you are smart with your money, you can let the people with “better moral compasses” to pay for tax in Ireland where you can pass on generational wealth to your loved ones.

Mr. Incognito

The Student wrote: »

The inheritance tax threshold should be increases to ensure the majority of families should never have to pay anything. I find it unacceptable that an only child (even an adult child) should have to pay tax on the inheritance of their family home.

They dont.

Aside from the thresholds is dwelling house relief. If you live in the family home its exempt from inheritance tax. 25 pages in. No mention. Typical boards. I dont need facts when ive opinions.

This thread boils down to

1. CAT is a Double tax.

Its not. Its a tax on wealth received for free by the beneficiaries.

2. CAT is immoral.

Its not. Receiving wealth in excess of 335K and contributing nothing is not how a modern society could function.

3. "Well Im again' it"

Im against tax. Im against paying advisors to get tax advice. Im against pensions, the government and children. Rarr.

CAT can be reduced, timed, avoided even. I charge for it in real life.

beauf

Just to be clear the op wanted cat allowances removed and the taxes to be punitive. Which could very much push people out of their family homes to pay the taxes.

beauf

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

...

Im against tax. Im against paying advisors to get tax advice. Im against pensions, the government and children. Rarr.

CAT can be reduced, timed, avoided even. I charge for it in real life.

People probably have a problem that people who are educated well enough to know that and wealthy enough to afford it. Have access to that whereas poorer people don't.

So the logical conclusion is remove wealth and education differences... Communism. Make everyone equally poor.

The Student

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

They dont.

Aside from the thresholds is dwelling house relief. If you live in the family home its exempt from inheritance tax. 25 pages in. No mention. Typical boards. I dont need facts when ive opinions.

This thread boils down to

1. CAT is a Double tax.

Its not. Its a tax on wealth received for free by the beneficiaries.

2. CAT is immoral.

Its not. Receiving wealth in excess of 335K and contributing nothing is not how a modern society could function.

3. "Well Im again' it"

Im against tax. Im against paying advisors to get tax advice. Im against pensions, the government and children. Rarr.

CAT can be reduced, timed, avoided even. I charge for it in real life.

You don't have to be living in your family home to recognize it as such. I am fully aware of the various taxes.

But sure hey hard work and sacrifice should not be rewarded. Sure anybody who leaves any sort of inheritance should be taxed right.

It never ceases to amaze me how people who actually try better themselves and their children's lives and actually don't receive as much support from the State are still expecting to keep on giving. Exactly when have they given enough.

Whatever happened to taking some personal responsibility for where people are in life. Why is it everybody else's responsibility to fix the bad choices others have made.

Fionn1952

The Student wrote: »

You don't have to be living in your family home to recognize it as such. I am fully aware of the various taxes.

But sure hey hard work and sacrifice should not be rewarded. Sure anybody who leaves any sort of inheritance should be taxed right.

It never ceases to amaze me how people who actually try better themselves and their children's lives and actually don't receive as much support from the State are still expecting to keep on giving. Exactly when have they given enough.

Whatever happened to taking some personal responsibility for where people are in life. Why is it everybody else's responsibility to fix the bad choices others have made.

Personal responsibility?! Ah come on, you're surely having a laugh when referring to significant inheritance as taking personal responsibility!

Why should I pay income tax? Is my hard work and sacrifice not being rewarded when I pay income tax? For me, I'd rather keep earning my income and paying a marginal rate of 52% than dropping my income down to the lower tax bracket. My hard work and sacrifice is rewarded with things my parents couldn't dream of.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

anewme wrote: »

There are often huge family sacrifices to do better financially. Missed Christmas plays, both parenents working, stressful jobs, with long hours, long commutes.

People starting off often have both parents working to afford a home. This is extreme stress on all members of the family.

People make these sacrifices so maybe they can enjoy their retirement their children will have a better life , more choices and might not need to do the same.

Low incomes jobs are often the ones with the most anti-social hours. Just as much affect on family life.

elperello

It might be worth noting here that the Revenue Commissioners don't make a judgement on how you amassed the estate.
It doesn't matter to them whether you killed yourself working or just got lucky they look at the bank accounts and the property and get out the calculator.

Same goes for the beneficiary. They could be doing very nicely for themselves or on their uppers struggling to make ends meet.
They could be losing their own house or looking after a handicapped child the numbers will be the same as if they had lots in the bank and a holiday home in Spain.

The person making the Will however mostly does know the personal circumstances of those they are leaving money/property to.

beauf

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Personal responsibility?! Ah come on, you're surely having a laugh when referring to significant inheritance as taking personal responsibility!
...

I dont think it meant personal responsibility for inheritance. Rather don't look to blame others for your misfortune's.

Some people just have it harder than others. No argument there. Sometimes choices are out of your hands. Sweeping generalising isn't always that useful.

beauf

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Low incomes jobs are often the ones with the most anti-social hours. Just as much affect on family life.

I think the point is a lot of successful people are only successful because of the wider support they get from family and friends. Also because they've worked their ass of to get there. Just because someone is wealthy doesn't mean they don't work hard.

Many people work just as hard and are not financially rewarded. That's life. Lots of people don't measure success or worth by wealth.

ml100

oceanman wrote: »

let them get off their ass and earn their own money...they might appreciate it more.

No, my money goes to my kids, not yours or anyone elses.